Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/04/25 12:49:31
Subject: The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Ed. Guide
Within this guide you will find my thoughts on the new 7thed Eldar Codex.
This guide is written with a very competitive mind set and not meant for the casual gamer.
Feel free to contribute if you have a different opinion, but keep in mind this is just my opinion and you may disagree so keep the whining to another thread.
The major rules, psychic powers, and units within the codex are graded based on their feasibility within a competitive environment in a color coded format shamefully stolen from other great guides.
Red is dead. This is a choice that's so bad, it actively detracts from your armies synergy, and makes your army a worse one overall.
Yellow is conditional. It may shine in a certain match-up, or when used in certain ways, but in general it's a sub-par choice.
Green is the average. Not necessarily a great choice, but it's rarely one you'll end up regretting.
Blue is an above-average or exceptional choice. These options frequently increase army synergy and overall army strength.
Purple is the highest rating in this guide, and is reserved for units that should be staples in virtually all competitive armies.
Will continue to update this as time goes on. Taking all feedback into consideration when I have time to read it all. Please keep your response civil and constructive.
Updated: 2/9/16 in the process of being updated.
Army Special Rules
Spoiler:
Ancient Doom – The Hatred re-rolls out-weigh the -1 Ld on Fear tests since most Eldar combat units are either Fearless or Ld9.
Battle Focus – Whether you’re using Run to move into firing range or getting out of Line of Sight Battle Focus should be a key part of every Eldar strategy. Remember that you must complete the Shoot + Run or Run + Shoot before moving on to another unit.
Warlord Traits
Spoiler:
Ambush of Blades – Re-Rolling to wound rolls of 1 for a single phase can be quite powerful, but situational.
An Eye on Distant Events – D3 scouting units opens up many tactical opportunities.
Falcon’s Swiftness – +3” to run moves for a single unit is useful.
Fate’s Messenger – Farseers have access to fortune and an Autarch should avoid taking too many saves where re-rolling 1s would be that helpful.
Mark of the Incomparable Hunter – Few units can take advantage of split fire unless your including a weapon emplacement.
Seer of the Shifting Vector – A 12" no scatter radius around your warlord can benefit Warp Spiders.
Remnants of Glory
Spoiler:
Kurnous’ Bow – S4 AP3 rending pistol is underwhelming and quite useless.
The Spirit Stone of Anath’lan – Auto-include for any Farseer. Reducing the cost of all psychic powers by 1 in exchange for losing an invulnerable save is always worth it.
The Phoenix Gem – 83% chance to place a S4 AP5 large blast over your dead Autarch to revive at one wound it if a unsaved wound is caused. Moderately useful for an assault based Autarch, but your Autarch shouldn’t be running into combats to die.
Uldanorethi Long Rifle – An AP3 sniper rifle. Sniper rifles are near useless in 7th and adding a single sniper shot isn’t worth the cost. Maybe a gun line Farseer could take advantage of it, but finding the spare points for this would be tough.
Faolchu’s Wing – 48" run and re-rollable cover saves, but giving up an entire turn of shooting/psychic powers/assaulting to move across the board is very situational.
Firesabre – +1S AP3 Soul Blaze, and Wildfire’s ability to destroy your own units, and the cost compared to comparable weapon upgrades that are cheaper out class this weapon.
Shard of Anaris – +2S rending, fearless, and fleshbane + instant death in challenges. Autarchs should avoid challenging any real combat characters, and the cost of this compared to other power weapons that are just as effective against weaker characters means you need to have a plan before you add it to your list. Adding fearless to any unit is the only reason this is green.
Psychic Powers
Spoiler:
Runes of Battle - These powers still have the same drawbacks. Warlocks are quite expensive, and you can’t pick and choose where each warlock will go so you’ll end up with useless powers. Spiritseers can alleviate this, but farseers are far better as a HQ.
--Conceal / Reveal – Shrouded or removing stealth/shrouded as the primaris; a warlock will always have at least one decent power to use each turn. Reveal is pretty situational, but conceal is always worth a spare dice.
--Destructor / Renewer –Heavy flamers are always nice, but psychic heavy flamers add a lot more uncertainty. The ability to heal a nearby wounded model like a Wraith Knight is quite good.
--Embolden / Horrify – Fearless or reducing an enemies Ld by 3. Fearless could be okayish on a Guardian blob, but quite expensive for a bike unit. Reducing enemies Ld by 3 can guarantee morale failures.
--Enhance / Drain – +1 to I and WS or -1 to an enemy units I and WS. Both powers are more or less the same and provide a solid boost to combat results.
--Protect / Jinx – Increases a units armor save or reduces an enemy units armor save. 2+ save bikes or wraithguard are awesome, but 4+ guardians on foot not so much. Dropping enemy saves though is kinda meh when the majority of eldar’s weapons are either rending/low ap or have high ap.
--Quicken / Restrain – Increases a units run by 3" or removes an enemy units ability to run. Could potentially win a game.
--Empower / Enervate – +1S increases an Eldar units combat results, and -1S to an enemy unit prevents wounds. Both are great.
Runes of Fate – Mixed bag, but the powers you do want are quite powerful.
--Guide – Twin-links a units shooting.
--Executioner – 3 > 2 > 1 fleshbane hits if you kill an enemy model each time. You have guns that do this better. Might work against light armored troops.
--Doom – Re-roll wounds/armor pen against an enemy unit. Any unit unfortunate enough to get hit by this will more than likely be removed soon.
--Will of Asuryan – 12" fearless, and adamantium will bubble. Very important to any list running MSU bikes.
--Mind War – Ld + D6 vs enemy LD + D6: a tie result enemy loses 1 WS and BS, but a loss also means the enemy unit loses that many wounds in addition. Great sniping tool for low LD armies.
--Eldritch Storm – S3 AP3 large blast with fleshbane, haywire, and pinning or potentially an apocalyptic blast version if you go for a higher warp charge. With stone and a few dice this can be devastating.
Santic – A couple powers here can have more impact for a warlock/spiritseer than Runes of Battle, but santic also has a much higher chance of being useless. A farseer has competing options in the other psychic trees.
--Gate of Infinity – very good mobility for grabbing objectives or finding weak spots to strike. Gating a unit of wraithguard around the table can be quite powerful.
--Hammerhand – A better version of Empower.
--Sanctuary – Not so great on guardians, but very good on wraithguard or wraithblades.
--Purge Soul – Again your guns do this better.
--Cleansing Flame – Very good power in many circumstances.
--Vortex of Doom – While S is amazing the cost to get this off will be tough for anyone besides the farseer. Can also end up destroying your own units.
Divination – Unless you’re going for invisibility this is the psychic tree that will be competing with Runes of Fate. Very good powers all around.
--Prescience – All but requires spirit stones to lower the cost, but if your tight on points it can be expensive. Re-rolls are always awsome.
--Foreboding – Probably blue, but eldar generally want to avoid getting charged. Otherwise the full BS overwatch is a great deterent.
--Forewarning – Ignoring half the wounds a unit may take is awesome.
--Perfect Timing – The best power in this tree. Ignoring cover saves means units die.
--Precognition – Eldar psykers do not want combat. Don’t have the guns. Pretty useless.
--Misfortune – Near army wide rending and low ap weapons means this is generally useless.
--Scrier’s Gaze – High cost with little impact on the game.
Telepathy – You’re here for invisibility. Most of the other powers are decent to awful.
--Psychic Shriek – Removes units with good rolls. Easy to cast.
--Dominate – Good power. Can effectively hinder a unit for a turn.
--Mental Fortitude – The chance you have a unit that is falling back near your farseer? Decent in the right circumstances.
--Terrify – Half the armies ignore this. The other half fear is already useless for the most part.
--Shrouding – Great power for increasing a units survivability.
--Invisibility – This is it. Deathstar is a go.
--Hallucination – You got a 33% chance to get what you want. 66% of the time you’re going to annoy your opponent at best.
Eldar Vehicle Equipment
Spoiler:
Ghostwalk Matrix – Protecting your vehicles without having to jink. Awesome upgrade.
Spirit Stones – Good but probably costs too much to be of use.
Holo-fields – If you can’t find any terrain to hide in this is a great replacement for the ghostwalk.
Star Engines – Too expensive for war walkers and eldar skimmers are already fast enough.
Vectored Engines – Pretty situational and expensive, but useful for protecting rear armor.
Crystal Targeting Matrix –Awesome ability, but way too costly to justify it.
Heavy Weapons
Spoiler:
Bright Lance - Standard awesome anti tank gun.
Eldar Missile Launcher - Now includes flak missiles for free, but remains the most expensive upgrade.
Shuriken Cannon - It's usually free and happens to be the best all rounder for heavy weapons. Rending is awesome.
Scatter Laser - Loss of laser lock and no AP means they simply are not that good anymore.
Starcannon - They are 5 point upgrades on almost all platforms which makes them pretty good for consistent AP2.
Headquarters
Spoiler:
Eldrad Ulthran – If you’re taking a farseer without a bike then you should be taking eldrad. For an extra 95 points you get +1 to your save, +1 psychic level, +1 toughness, a better weapon, the best eldar warlord trait, and the ability to regenerate power dice.
Prince Yriel – You can take a cheaper more versatile autarch, or a better combat character in a phoenix lord. Hard to justify the cost, but he’s a decent combat character with a drawback on his armor saves.
Illic Nightspear – Illic won’t be making that big of a difference in a game and rangers are generally pretty awful even with sharpshot. Might get lucky with a voidshot, but those will be far between. Better off taking a vindicare if you want the super sniper.
Asurmen – Can be blue depending if you roll well on your D3 warlord traits. Lack of ranged power, but great/tough combat character.
Jain Zar – Amazing combat character. Runs 1-6+6”, AP2 ranged/melee, disarms powerfists/weapons, lowers enemies WS and I within 6” by 5, and ignores over watch and difficult terrain. No invulnerable save though so watch out for AP2. Combos nicely with any monofilament weapons. Also great in front of a unit of wraithblades.
Karandras – Great combat character with a powerfist at I, and a good warlord trait. No invulnerable save and doesn’t bring much else to the table though for such a high cost.
Fuegan – Great combat character, but costs way too much. No invulnerable save, but feel no pain helps.
Bararroth – Good combat character, but lacks AP2 or invulnerable save. 6” blind on deep strike is helpful in certain situations. Still has Hit and Run for any deathstars.
Maugan Ra – Great combat character, and 8 rending BS5 shots a turn. The increased range and double tap ability has greatly increased his power.
Autarch – Cheapest HQ available and very customizable. You can build an autarch to do anything besides heavy combat. Very good at covering a units missing pieces. Also good at keeping units in reserve longer.
Farseer – The go to HQ for eldar. Amazing force multiplier for cheap. Should always be on a bike unless you have something tough to hide in.
Warlock Conclave – Communion of Minds drastically reduces their effectiveness. Still a formidable combat unit with the right blessings, but getting those blessings is the hard part now. Capped at 3 powers your chances of getting what you need is severely hampered. Also still very expensive. If you must then take the formation and not this.
Spiritseer – Not quite as good as the farseer, but a must take HQ for any army focusing on wraith units. Re-rolls for all wraith units is huge.
Troops
Spoiler:
Guardian Defenders – Solid troop choice if taken in formation, but green rating if not. The free weapon platform opens a lot of possibilities.
--Warlock Leader - Solid upgrade for the unit, but only for the ability to add conceal reliably.
Storm Guardians – Cheap melta/flamers in troops if taken in formation, but yellow rating if not. The free melta/flamers and power swords opens a lot of possibilities.
--Warlock Leader - The other runes of battle powers really come into effect within this unit. A lot of added value depending on which power you get.
---Singing Spear - Range fits with shuriken, and adds a nice punch.
Windriders – Cheapest and easily the best troops in the game. Both weapon options have great value, but I prefer shuriken cannons as the best tac option simply because the rend + auto wound is so important against tough enemies. Remember that you're still T4 with a 3+ so don't go standing around in the middle of the board.
--Warlock Leader - The strength of the jetbikes lies in their cost / power ratio and adding on a 50 point warlock greatly decreases that for very little in return.
---Singing Spear - Adds quite a bit of flexibility to the unit.
Rangers – Sniper rifles are terrible in 7th. Rangers are a weak static unit that can at best camp a home objective and pick off a couple models over the entire game.
Dire Avengers – No longer needed as the cheapest troops to unlock wave serpents. Dire avengers are still a solid troop with good mobility and range, but lack survivability.
--Exarch - Doesn't add much over all to the unit. The fact that he is T3 means his 4++ will not matter not as most guns will simply cause instant death and ignore the 2 wounds.
---Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult - BS5, there is little reason to pay 15 points for twin-linked.
---Power Weapon Shuriken Pistol - Very shooty unit with little combat potential. Why spend 25 points to lower your ranged potential?
---Dire Sword Shuriken Pistol - Same comment.
---Power Weapon Shimmer Shield - If you're going to take an exarch this is the only upgrade that seems reasonable. 20 points for a unit wide 5++ is pretty cheap.
Elites
Spoiler:
Howling Banshees – No longer the worst unit in the game. Many of the past issues have been solved (overwatch, grenades). This rating seems a bit high, but with formation bonuses banshees are very killy with the mobility to get them where they need to go, and at 13 points a pop durability isn’t an issue.
--Exarch - War Shout is very good for combat results and offers an excellent weapon.
---Triskele - AP3 ranged attack, but still suffers from the S3 of eldar.
---Executioner - +2S AP2 at I really adds in to your combat results. Best upgrade if you're adding an exarch.
---Mirrorswords - Losing a shuriken pistol for a single re-roll to hit in combat is a bad trade.
Striking Scorpions – Statistically stronger than banshees against most units. .
--Exarch - If you're taking striking scorpions you really need to take an exarch. It's expensive, but worth it.
---Scorpion's Claw - 2xS AP2 at I and not to mention the added shuriken this is your upgrade of choice.
---Biting Blade - The +1S over the sword is okay, but you're losing an attack for it. AP4 is kinda meh.
---Chainsabres - Rending for 10 points isn't bad. Not great either.
Fire Dragons – Best anti tank units in the game? Still expensive, but no one does it better(unless your bringing wraiths).
--Exarch - Not a worth while investment for unit that is so specialized. Neither weapon nor the power is really quite worth the investment for a unit that will more than likely die to return fire.
---Firepike - It's better, but not by enough to make it worthwhile. If your fire dragons are on the ground they are more than likely within 6" of their target and the extra range is for naught.
---Dragon's Breath Flamer - While this upgrade goes against the units purpose it at least adds something to the unit if you're going to waste points on the exarch. Can actually help in a match where you lack a AT threat worth going after.
Wraithguard – They are obviously going to murder anything they get near, but mobility continues to be an issue. Obvious choice for DE allies and deepstriking shenanigans. The short range on these weapons will over the length of a game become a problem if you're walking.
--Wraithcannon - Longer range, but less killing potential.
--D-Sythe - Stronger choice since the range difference isn't that big of a deal when you consider how much more killing potential this unit has as well as the charge deterrence of D3 SD hits each.
Wraithblades – Swords are okay at S6 AP3 with base 2A, but with the addition of rage axes are easily the better pick. T6 3+ 4++ and S7 AP2 with 3A on the charge? Probably the best melee unit in the codex now.
Dedicated Transport
Spoiler:
Wave Serpent – Oh how the mighty have fallen. Still a durable transport at a decent cost with some fire power.
Fast Attack
Spoiler:
Swooping Hawks – Massed S3 guns and the grenade pack are still good. Intercept is just icing on the cake; 8 hawks will kill a flier per turn.
--Exarch - The ability to not scatter is awesome and worth it every time.
---Hawl's Talon - S5 will help with the wound count, but for 5 more points you can have...
---Sunrifle - AP3 and blind are a great addition to a unit that wish's to avoid return fire.
---Power Weapon - Just no. Avoid combat.
Warp Spiders – If you miss the old wave serpents I hope you bought 30 warp spiders. It’s hard to find a unit that is as good as this. Assault 2 S6 guns with rending and probably the best mobility on any unit in the game. Even better they can re-actively disengage now during your opponents shooting phase.
--Exarch - Iron Resolve is seriously a great rule for a unit that will be operating behind enemy lines.
---Twin-Linked Death Spinner - BS5! You don't need twin-linked!
---Spinneret Rifle - Awesome upgrade as the AP1 seriously helps with vehicle hunting.
---Powerblades - Just no. Avoid combat.
Shining Spears – Shock assault unit that can punch pretty hard on the charge. Durable and mobile spears can threaten most units. Kinda expensive though and are terrible in protracted combats.
--Exarch - Expert Hunter is nice, but you're taking this for the lance.
---Power Weapon - Your normal lance is better so why bother?
---Star Lance - Only reason to take this guy. Opens up the units list of targets considerably.
Crimson Hunter – Now with re-rolls against other fliers this is easily the most dangerous anti flier in the game.
--Starcannons - Trading 2x S8 for 4x at S6 is situational; as in you know you're not going against other fliers/FMC which makes me ask why you would bring this if you know that...
--Exarch - You're taking this for BS5. Precision shots is way to situational for an anti flier.
Vyper Squadron – Very cheap mobile shuriken cannon platforms or for a bit higher cost can specialize for anti-tank. Lack of durability hurts it as well as being in the same slot as warp spiders.
Hemlock Wraithfighter – New changes have seriously increased the value of this unit. A flying level 2 pysker with a D cannon is amazing. Stick with telepathy and enjoy psychic shrieking one unit while you rain S small blasts down on another. The other powers all generally work well with the range and mobility a flier offers.
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Dark Reapers – 25 points for 2 S5 AP3 jink ignoring shots is amazing. Durable for Eldar, but a bit static for a fast moving army.
--Starshot Missiles - Still a bit expensive, but the unit will now threaten just about everything.
--Exarch - Fast shot is worth 10 points.
---Shuriken Cannon - Worthless within this unit.
---Eldar Missile Launcher - Starshot is cheaper, so you either want flak and/or plasma.
---Tempest Launcher - Trading 1S for barrage blasts can be worth it.
Vaul’s Wrath Support Battery- Overall a good unit especially for a gun line.
--Shadow Weaver- Will see a lot of this. Still a solid barrage weapon that can threaten a lot of targets.
--Vibro Cannon- Great anti-tank, but very reliant on all 3 guns hitting.
--D-Cannon- It’s a D cannon; it’s amazing. It is short range on a static unit though.
--Warlock Leader - Conceal I guess? Not many powers are going to help this unit.
Falcons – Durable mobile weapons platform. Great potential in combining cloudstrike and an aspect formation, but finding a place to fit 3 falcons and 15+ troops will be tough.
Fire Prisms – Prisms always needed redundancy, but often couldn’t afford to spare all 3 HS slots for it. Durable, mobile, and flexible weapon platforms are now available in squadrons. AP2 large blast is available with linked fire.
Night Spinners – Spinners always needed redundancy, but often couldn’t afford to spare all 3 HS slots for it. Durable, mobile, and flexible weapon platforms are now available in squadrons. Multi-shot S9 large blast barrage rending is available with linked fire.
War Walkers – Mobile and versatile weapon platform. 90 points for two missile systems with flakk seems like a good deal. Still light on the durability, but battle focus helps avoid fire.
Wraithlord – For the points investment you just have to realize that the wraithknight is just better. Still a reasonable unit that’s extremely durable and has versatile weapon options.
Lord of War
Spoiler:
Wraithknight – Overall one of the strongest units in the game. Unreasonably cheap for such a durable and powerful unit. There is no downside to this model.
--D-Cannons – Great utility with two D shots at potentially two targets.
--Suncannon – 3 S6 AP2 small blasts are very good, but redundant with other units that can do the same thing.
--Sword – This is where this unit shines. D sword Wraith Knight will rip through all the giant things the rest of your army will struggle to defeat.
Avatar of Khaine – A very good unit, but it competes with a Wraith Knight in the Lord of War slot, and it just doesn't compare very well.
Formations
Spoiler:
Guardian Battlehost – The most expensive option at 500 points min, but probably the 2nd best. Free weapon platforms on top of guardian blobs make for a great gunline.
Windrider Host – The cheapest option at 358 points and honestly the best. You get a mobile and durable HQ, the best troops, and get to ignore the more static units in the guardian formations.
Guardian Stormhost – Same as the battlehost but you’re trading guardians with weapon platforms for storm guardians with 2 melta or flamers. Still a solid option at 464 points.
Seer Council – The only real way to run a seer council. 3+ to harness powers goes a long way with Farseer re-rolls.
Aspect Host – This is the hidden gem in this book. I feel like this is where every power list will end up. BS5 / WS5 is just so game changing. Warp spiders or dark reapers that hit and wound on 2-3s? Hitting the majority of infantry on 3s in combat? So many great combinations and the ability to mix your aspects I feel makes this the best formation available.
Dire Avenger Shrine – One turn of BS5 Assault 3 weapons with the re-roll to wound warlord trait active could be very deadly. The other aspects just have more going for them though. If it came with something else it might merit a higher rating.
Crimson Death – If there are a lot of fliers then this formation will wreak havoc, and if not you’re still getting what amounts to be the old vendetta spam.
Wraith Host – Battle Focus alleviates the mobility problem with Wraithguard. The ability to extend your reach an extra 6" every turn will help control the board.
Allies
Spoiler:
Dark Eldar - WIP
Harlequins - WIP
This message was edited 20 times. Last update was at 2016/02/09 12:33:21
Good write up, thanks for sharing.
When you have the things in red and say "you wont get to use them" are you referring to tournaments/gaming groups and other players simply saying no to them or?
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
It would be decent write-up, but the 'you'll never get to use this' is a major turn off. As if you would have any clue yet what will and won't be allowed, just like you don't seem to comprehend that there are lot of no-comp GT events held every year.
While everyone else are writing anti-Eldar tacticas vs the new Wraithguard, Wraithknight, Jetbikes and whatnot, you're doing an Eldar 7th Guide that doesn't say anything in the department of Wraith Host except 'haha you can't use this'.
Overall this guide is useless, because if you're a casual player who picks only from the weakest units, why would you care about their power ranking?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/04/25 15:07:02
Maybe there are people who can't see the synergy with some of the units and formations... I liked the review made me giggle. And most places are banning ranged d so uh it's kinda relevant. Some of the haters on dakka man I swear.
2015/04/25 17:50:33
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
2015/04/25 18:23:12
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
I only rank the Codex as "good, but not great" (but take it with a grain of salt because I don't think any of the 7th edition books are universally great). I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points. 7 warlocks on jetbikes costs 350 alone. The Craftworld detachment is nice but the command benefit is marginal unless you're playing footdar which means lots of exposed T3 models. A lot of the reroll cover shenanigans are gone so it'll be fairly easy to stack wounds on T3 units and do damage through volume of fire.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
2015/04/25 19:08:24
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
I agree with most of your analysis, but I can't get behind including the Avatar to buff Banshees. Simply put, against most armies the Avatar isn't going to survive long enough to supply the buff. T6/W6/3+/5++ just isn't going to cut it. That's especially true in a footdar list because there won't be many other targets for your opponent's AT weaponry. In general, I don't trust buff models that I can't hide in a unit.
One other note: if you're taking the Craftworld Warhost (which seems like the thing to do if you're running footdar) you have to take a regular Farseer. That's a situation where you'd take a regular Farseer on foot over Eldrad.
2015/04/25 20:06:52
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
i was really hyped for some of the vehicles formations like the crimson hunter squad but im really concerned with how easy it would be for even a single hive tyrant to easy destroy the formation. 12 s6 shots would at the very least force the whole squad to jink and than snap fire, or take your chances and not jink and could lose a couple planes at once. Might be easier to hide the vehicle squads (spinner/prism) since you dont need LOS ofcourse for the spinner and if taking multiple fire prisms only one needs to see the target (i presume) leaving the others to hide. That lone visable prism could be given holofields for some survivability.
i will prolly be fielding a couple 5 man bike squads with scatters and a knight standard, but for what ill face in my meta, i mise well just keep using improved fire dragons for tank busting and leaving the d-scythes at home. Wonder if foreworld will make the warp hunter a D weapon, as it is now never field it.
and as a couple people mentioned, i like the writeup and the time you took to do it, but the red on D weapons is lame. 95% of warhammer games played are not tourney games, and most people will never play in one, what relevance does this than have?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/25 20:14:15
Therion wrote: It would be decent write-up, but the 'you'll never get to use this' is a major turn off. As if you would have any clue yet what will and won't be allowed, just like you don't seem to comprehend that there are lot of no-comp GT events held every year.
We don't need a tactica to tell us that if they are permitted, ranged D weapons and criminally undercosted wraithknights are a no brainer.
2015/04/25 21:12:16
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
I think 'terrible' should have been coded separate from 'great, but I predict tourneys won't allow them.'
If you only consider Eldar as a mono build army, this is a good guide. I think some of your judgements suffer from not considering their impact on or with allies.
I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points.
I'd like to see some examples. Compare the price and effectiveness of most Eldar units to a similar unit of another race and... uh... I shouldn't have to explain this.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
Scatter laser is 36" mounted on an extremely mobile unit, and it's range isn't even impressive by Eldar standards. Can you name three units in this game that would reliably be able to chase down windriders, survive overwatch and wipe them in melee for a roughly equivalent amount of points?
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Wave serpents are no longer a broken fire-platform but are a very viable dedicated transport. Scatbikes replace the wave serpent's loss of firepower easily. It's possible to take multiple CADs for multiple wraithknights and it might be possible to take multiples via the decurion-like formation, it's not clear.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
Thanks for sharing this review. I would agree with you on most of the units.
You are probably doing your review a disservice by assuming that D weapon equipped units will be blanket banned. Most of the major GTs have already come out saying they will not be blanket banning and will instead figure out other solutions. The -1 to results on the D chart seems the most likely as of now.
I think wraithlords are pretty bad when considered in a CAD. If you can take them in a Wraith Host inside of a Craftworld Warhost then they start becoming a lot better. Primarily they are pretty tough to kill, can take 2 EML (which now have flakk missiles automatically) or 2 relatively cheap star cannons and will be able to battle focus 6"+ their 6" movements. The wraithlords biggest problem has been speed and the wraithlord sharing a slot. That is solved to some degree now.
Adding fearless is actually a much bigger advantage now that all the aspects and guardian units are massively better and the waveserpents are significantly worse. Morale is a much bigger issue now. Thus having some units around that can regroup your fleeing Windriders when they fail their morale checks is a major advantage. Additionally adding shrouded to Windriders units full of scatter lasers jumping around in ruins is going to be a brutal experience. Nothing better than a 2+ cover save, scatter laser equipped, ObjSec, troop choice.
Another power which you might want to reevaluate the Quicken / Restrain series. They are not conditional in the way you mentioned per se. These two powers are the type of abilities which win close games. The number of close games I have seen won or lost on a single run roll is large. Adding an extra +3 to your run or not allowing a key unit of your opponent to run would win these games. So while it is conditional it is game winning when you need it.
I agree with you on the storm guardians. When you start combining Craftworld Warhost and their formation with warlocks they actually start getting pretty good. A unit which can move 6", jump out of the waveserpent, then run 6", shoot 2 melta shots, and have a singing lance + shrouded for a cheap price tag is not bad. They can even stand up reasonably well to a charge with 2 power swords.
I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points.
I'd like to see some examples. Compare the price and effectiveness of most Eldar units to a similar unit of another race and... uh... I shouldn't have to explain this.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
Scatter laser is 36" mounted on an extremely mobile unit, and it's range isn't even impressive by Eldar standards. Can you name three units in this game that would reliably be able to chase down windriders, survive overwatch and wipe them in melee for a roughly equivalent amount of points?
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Wave serpents are no longer a broken fire-platform but are a very viable dedicated transport. Scatbikes replace the wave serpent's loss of firepower easily. It's possible to take multiple CADs for multiple wraithknights and it might be possible to take multiples via the decurion-like formation, it's not clear.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
I don't even know.
Take your pick. Stock Necron warriors are more resilient than any Eldar troops choice and still pack ok firepower at medium range. T3 makes all the aspect warriors slightly less resilient than a MEQ. Guardians are no more resilient than any GEQ while having generally half the range. The really resilient units are a premium price point. The wraithknight eats a LoW slot and costs almost 300 points stock.
Scatterlasers are nice. But a good shooting platform (say a 95 point Predator with HB sponsons) stands a great chance of killing a 81 point 3 windrider, 3 scatterlaser squad before they kill or disable the tank. It comes down much more to unit placement and movement. I don't need to dedicate a unit to chasing you across the board. I need to dedicate a unit to an objective that your bikes need to advance into.
I didn't say wave serpents were bad now. I said they took a serious nerf. You no longer get a main battle tank in a DT slot. Scatterlaser bikes do not make up for the lost firepower by themselves. You lost S7, almost always twin-linked, ignore cover, pinning shooting with 60" range and great mobility. Jetbikes are not nearly as resilient being essentially a MEQ unit and can't just ignore S5 and below shooting like serpents do.
You can absolutely take multiple wraithknights in the Craftworld detachment. Its crystal clear. You buy them under the wraith construct slot once you filled your core. Even if you take multiple CADs for multiple wraithknights, its not nearly as effective in terms of firepower and resilience as the 3 knight, 4 serpent build under the old book.
So yes, I stand by what I said. Its a good codex but its not great. Compared to most of the other 7th edition books, I think its about par for the course. The infantry units generally got a boost but Eldar are units are now generally mobile with high firepower but not very survivable or they are mobile and survivable with lower firepower.
2015/04/26 05:16:17
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Great feedback. I will look through it and make some revisions trying to explain my ratings on each unit better as well as figure something out about SD weapons. Will add an additional section on allies soon.
I exalt this thread. It's the only one I've found on the new Eldar codex that's not degenerated into bitter flamewar. Everyone who's posted should feel at least slightly proud for resisting the lure of the dark side.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
LOL What!??!?
I no longer value your opinion on the subject.
Great contribution there buddy. Highly qualitative response.
Lets discuss specifics. When I think of a "great" codex, I think of the old Necron book. Lots of good selections and very easy to achieve a balance between shooting, mobility, and survivability. When I think of an average Codex, I think of the current Tyranid or Orc book. They have some really great units and are competitive, but not dominating. The new Eldar book falls in between these for me. You can build lists that are very shooty, but they tend not to be nearly as resilient as before. 7th Edition Jetbikes are inferior to 6th Edition Serpents.
Lets look at a specific spammy example: 3 jet bike farseers, 6x 3 windriders with scatter lasers, 3x wraithknights. That clocks in at 1716 points, or approximately the same price point as 1 farseer, 3 wraithknights and 4 serpents with DAVUs in the old book. The serpents pack less firepower as the winder riders at 36" (24 S6 and ~18 S7 vs 72 S6), but are much more resilient (ignore S5 and below, virtually immune to S6, and take less damage from any weapon less than S10). Kill a single jetbike and they take morale and lots of armies can kill 3 MEQs much easier than an AV12 serpent. Thunderfires, Wyverns, and other barrage weapons now have great targets. The wraithknights shooting is slightly better now (d6+6 wounds, no saves on a "6" instead of Instant Death with saves) but its resiliency is through the roof now as a gargantuan creature. The psychic phase got a huge boost with the two additional farseers who are better than before.
So what do you have overall in this example? A much shootier army that is less resilient than before. It's much easier to clean up the supporting units here and leave the wraithknights stranded where they can't kill enough ObSec units quickly enough to win. Every lost jetbike squad is also a much bigger loss in firepower (12 S6 shots) than the loss of a single serpent (4 S6, ~4.5 S7). The new Eldar list also has fewer ObSec units (6) than the old (8).
2015/04/26 17:16:13
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
PanzerLeader wrote: Lets look at a specific spammy example: 3 jet bike farseers, 6x 3 windriders with scatter lasers, 3x wraithknights.
Older Serpent Spam builds were viable. A random off-the-top 'spammy' list is sure to be a poor comparison. Just because you can field 3 CAD doesn't mean you should. Also, correct me if I'm wrong... but the triple jet bike squads with no upgrades were considered one of the best troop choices in-the-game. Has that changed? Are you forced to take upgrades on any/all of your jetbikes?
The wraithknights shooting is slightly better now (d6+6 wounds, no saves on a "6" instead of Instant Death with saves)
1 wound vs d6+6 is not slightly better. Not even close.
So what do you have overall in this example?
My point being, this is a bad example. Once good synergies and combos arrive after some trail & error, we can see specifics then. However, what we can all see now, is that there is potentially for hugely powerful army lists, far above what is about currently.
Scatterlasers are nice. But a good shooting platform (say a 95 point Predator with HB sponsons) stands a great chance of killing a 81 point 3 windrider, 3 scatterlaser squad before they kill or disable the tank
Also to respond to this... I would advise that you base your arguments on reasonable assessments. Otherwise you may be misleading to others. A 95pt tank (moves 6") that shoots 8xbs4 shots, wounding on 2's, kills 1.49 bikes (1-2 bikes). Also, a good shooting platform a HB Predator is not - Very sub-par str5/7 firepower. The bikes can move 12" and use the JSJ moves to maneuver out of LOS. All of that does not constitute a 'great chance'.
PanzerLeader wrote: Lets look at a specific spammy example: 3 jet bike farseers, 6x 3 windriders with scatter lasers, 3x wraithknights.
Older Serpent Spam builds were viable. A random off-the-top 'spammy' list is sure to be a poor comparison. Just because you can field 3 CAD doesn't mean you should. Also, correct me if I'm wrong... but the triple jet bike squads with no upgrades were considered one of the best troop choices in-the-game. Has that changed? Are you forced to take upgrades on any/all of your jetbikes?
The wraithknights shooting is slightly better now (d6+6 wounds, no saves on a "6" instead of Instant Death with saves)
1 wound vs d6+6 is not slightly better. Not even close.
So what do you have overall in this example?
My point being, this is a bad example. Once good synergies and combos arrive after some trail & error, we can see specifics then. However, what we can all see now, is that there is potentially for hugely powerful army lists, far above what is about currently.
Scatterlasers are nice. But a good shooting platform (say a 95 point Predator with HB sponsons) stands a great chance of killing a 81 point 3 windrider, 3 scatterlaser squad before they kill or disable the tank
Also to respond to this... I would advise that you base your arguments on reasonable assessments. Otherwise you may be misleading to others. A 95pt tank (moves 6") that shoots 8xbs4 shots, wounding on 2's, kills 1.49 bikes (1-2 bikes). Also, a good shooting platform a HB Predator is not - Very sub-par str5/7 firepower. The bikes can move 12" and use the JSJ moves to maneuver out of LOS. All of that does not constitute a 'great chance'.
It is only slightly better. The real boon comes on a "D" table result of 2-5 where the wraith knight now inflicts d3+1 wounds against multiple wound models with T6+. Against single wound and T5 or lower multiwound models, there is not significant improvement from S10, AP2.
It is not an off the top spammy list. Look at some of the other threads. Jetbike spam is one considered one of the new things. It was even specifically mentioned as a serpent replacement by someone else earlier in this thread. I don't think its good, obviously.
The Predator can also move up to 18" and turn to face AV13 to counter the jet bikes move. Given enough terrain, the two units can have a standoff in a void the entire time. The bikes can't risk exposing themselves (because 1-2 bikes is 33% to 66% of the squad) but the Predator can predict the 12" move and reposition so the bikes can't hurt it without being exposed for a turn. Its a reasonable example given the low points and relative strengths of the two.
There are some good synergies and combos in the new book. I never said the new Eldar book was bad. I didn't even say it was average. It is a GOOD codex. I think a competitive Eldar list will still include 2 units of ObSec bikes for objective grabbing and 1-2 DAVU waveserpents for resilient ObSec and then a combination of reapers and fire dragons to cover the gaps. But Eldar are no longer as simple to play either. The boosts to infantry made units very specialist and you have to use them with more precision than before. You can't just flit around the table, using 60" serpent shields to plink away and then boost in at the end of the game anymore.
2015/04/26 18:24:49
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Jain zar lowering ini by 5 as a 6" bubble. combined with 10 warp spiders for example - 20 wounding on 2 shots vs anything.
sanctuary is brilliant, and should be purple, if you run a seer council. with would give thema 3+ inv and eldrad a 2+. with fortune even nastier. with invis? muahahaha
fire dragon aspect host in deepstriking falcons.
2015/04/26 21:09:40
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Homeskillet wrote: Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.
I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.
No wonder when your delusional enough to recommend a dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be ing
Your also going to suggest that the D weapon is only a slight upgrade from S10? WTF? It's like you have never played a serious game. Single shot low AP weapons struggle against vehicles and MC's, yet sD makes a mockery of such things. Even worse in template form.
So while my previous post was short, I'd say it was much more grounded in reality and constructive then multiple paragraphs of uneducated handwaving.
Your also making the very stupid mistake of judging a books power level based upon house rules. That's right, any TO's packet restricting abusive unit types and rules are just that, house rules. Not 40k, but that TO's opinion of what 40k should be. That very fact illustrates how broken a book is. Are you making comments assuming a 2 CAD, unique limit? Banned ranged D? No LoW? My guess is you are, guess what bub those very restrictions are proof it's that busted.
Homeskillet wrote: Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.
I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.
No wonder when your delusional enough to recommend a dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be ing
Your also going to suggest that the D weapon is only a slight upgrade from S10? WTF? It's like you have never played a serious game. Single shot low AP weapons struggle against vehicles and MC's, yet sD makes a mockery of such things. Even worse in template form.
So while my previous post was short, I'd say it was much more grounded in reality and constructive then multiple paragraphs of uneducated handwaving.
Your also making the very stupid mistake of judging a books power level based upon house rules. That's right, any TO's packet restricting abusive unit types and rules are just that, house rules. Not 40k, but that TO's opinion of what 40k should be. That very fact illustrates how broken a book is. Are you making comments assuming a 2 CAD, unique limit? Banned ranged D? No LoW? My guess is you are, guess what bub those very restrictions are proof it's that busted.
^^^^This
2015/04/26 22:35:53
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Homeskillet wrote: Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.
I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.
No wonder when your delusional enough to recommend a dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be ing
Your also going to suggest that the D weapon is only a slight upgrade from S10? WTF? It's like you have never played a serious game. Single shot low AP weapons struggle against vehicles and MC's, yet sD makes a mockery of such things. Even worse in template form.
So while my previous post was short, I'd say it was much more grounded in reality and constructive then multiple paragraphs of uneducated handwaving.
Your also making the very stupid mistake of judging a books power level based upon house rules. That's right, any TO's packet restricting abusive unit types and rules are just that, house rules. Not 40k, but that TO's opinion of what 40k should be. That very fact illustrates how broken a book is. Are you making comments assuming a 2 CAD, unique limit? Banned ranged D? No LoW? My guess is you are, guess what bub those very restrictions are proof it's that busted.
I didn't recommend the dakka predator as a counter. Truth asked for a similar priced unit that could defeat scatter bike. I provided one.
Read what I wrote carefully. S D is a marginal upgrade against single wound models and T5 and below multiple wound models. S D is a significant upgrade against T6+ multiple wound models. Strength D is also better against vehicles. The biggest difference occurs when you roll a "6" on the chart and ignore saves.
What house rules am I using? The list I posted as a sample was a 3 CAD list with 3 Lords of War, all with ranged D. I'm making no such assumptions. I make it a point of keeping key variables (like terrain and the enemy's ability to respond) as part of my analysis rather than simply looking at a unit or a Codex in a vacuum. Scatter bikes are good, but no one has mentioned how other mobile, popular units (like White Scars bikers) can threaten them by hiding out of LOS and using that 36" threat range to keep them honest. Sicarian tanks are a popular choice and will mow down exposed squads while being relatively immune to return fire, especially if in cover. Grav centurions, who can now be drop podded, still work well against wraithknights as do fast assault units with a powerfist or axe of khorne.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/26 22:36:37
I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/26 22:44:44
What I want to know is why my Wyches couldn't have been on equal terms with Banshee's.
All my girls sitting and watching the Kabalites go to war with the Freakshow..thinking when do we mount up?
Just wait for the real crying to start when the new Space Marine Codex drops.
We ALL know how GW loves their Marines.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Well this is how certain discussions on message boards develop. It's a shout down. The angry mob posts as much as they can and drown the voices of dissent. For every guy who disagrees, no matter who he is and what his merits are, and no matter what his argument is, you'll get a dozen replies shouting him down and ridiculing his post's subject matter as well as often the person himself.
I for one agree with PanzerLeader wholeheartedly. I think I also qualify as a grey hunter of sorts since I've played 40K for over 20 years, so I've seen all sorts of army books.
People are so fast to claim they know what the community will and will not agree with, and what will or won't be allowed. Personally I'm very confident that once the dust settles everything in the Codex: Eldar will be allowed at GW's appointed points costs, but a few blanket modifications to D weapons and/or GCs/SHVs will be in place to keep it in check, just like there were small modifications to 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves and other similar issues.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/26 22:58:46
is amazing the cost to get this off will be tough for anyone besides the farseer. Can also end up destroying your own units.
Sekhmet - Dynasty 4000pts 
Greenwing - 2000pts 
Deathguard - 1500pts 
Daemons of Nurgle - 1000pts 
~320pts 
dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be 