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Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Ah buts its not! A dakka pred has side armour 11 and has a 6" move to re-position. On the other hand, bikes can turbo-boost or move 12" and JSJ. In terms of having the ability to protect itself, surely the bikes come out tops? Or at the very least, it is not clear-cut.
I do agree something like a Wyvern would be a good counter. It has range, ignores LOS, has the right kind of firepower to force wounds in a reliable way.
I think the abuse that the previous Eldar codex was capable of will continue, unless changes are made. I do concede that the smaller changes the better (check out my new post..!), it could actually be very minor. Things like the scat-bikes may just force a meta change.
@Orock - It wasn't presented as a realistic answer. It was presented as a similarly priced unit that could counter scatbikes. There is a difference, it's just one example trying to calm down the hysteria over the Eldar book.
Edit@razerious. It's pretty easy to deny jetbikes shooting at side armor by putting the predsin a corner. But we could argue all day over stuff like hypothetical positioning and such. But you have the right idea, wyverns are another good one although the AV12 front might get busted quickly unless hidden out of sight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/26 23:15:45
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
This has been covered. The jet bikes boost to hide out of LOS in the predators side armor. The predator player backs up 12" and turns his AV13 to face the jet bikes. The jet bikes now cannot reach the side armor with a 12" jump and so reposition again for a shoot next turn, causing the predator to reposition. Its a literal stand off in a vacuum with neither unit being able to leverage an advantage on its own. You could do the same thing with the newly popular Sicarians who are front AV 13, side AV 12.
Thanks for the acknowledgement Therion and Chance.
2015/04/26 23:18:45
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Ah buts its not! A dakka pred has side armour 11 and has a 6" move to re-position. On the other hand, bikes can turbo-boost or move 12" and JSJ. In terms of having the ability to protect itself, surely the bikes come out tops? Or at the very least, it is not clear-cut.
I do agree something like a Wyvern would be a good counter. It has range, ignores LOS, has the right kind of firepower to force wounds in a reliable way.
I think the abuse that the previous Eldar codex was capable of will continue, unless changes are made. I do concede that the smaller changes the better (check out my new post..!), it could actually be very minor. Things like the scat-bikes may just force a meta change.
The predator has 18 inches of movement to reposition (12 inch move plus 6 inch flatout). In a vacuum, it can keep front AV 13 to the bikes all day while the bikes keep boosting from LOS-blocking terrain to LOS-blocking terrain to try for a flank shot. The bikes can only move 12 before shooting making it very easy to deny a flank shot.
There are a lot of good units but probably what will happen is someone wins a GT and that will define what a large percentage of competitive eldar players bring to big events. WK will most likely be limited to 0-1... Have to wait and see what happens with D. I think if ranged D is allowed it will open the door to a lot of Forgeworld units in an escalation race. Lots of D changes everything.
A vaccum is a terrible way to try and justify the hands down best point for points troops in the game are not overpowered. You might as well say the other guy could just use 3 land raiders and the eldar player would be completely helpless! You cannot justify a cheezy unit because " specific the unit that nobody uses and would be a terrible choice in any other matchup has a partial counter to said cheeze unit". I guess you think decurion wraiths are a o.k. because someone could run multiple units of 30 fearless grots and conciecably tie them up all game?
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
Dozer Blades wrote: There are a lot of good units but probably what will happen is someone wins a GT and that will define what a large percentage of competitive eldar players bring to big events. WK will most likely be limited to 0-1... Have to wait and see what happens with D. I think if ranged D is allowed it will open the door to a lot of Forgeworld units in an escalation race. Lots of D changes everything.
That is true. If the Eldar ranged D is allowed in tourney play, then that should open the door to Forgeworld ranged D and even ignores cover weapons.
However
Imperial Knights didn't open the door to forgeworld superheavies so ..................
Orock wrote: A vaccum is a terrible way to try and justify the hands down best point for points troops in the game are not overpowered. You might as well say the other guy could just use 3 land raiders and the eldar player would be completely helpless! You cannot justify a cheezy unit because " specific the unit that nobody uses and would be a terrible choice in any other matchup has a partial counter to said cheeze unit". I guess you think decurion wraiths are a o.k. because someone could run multiple units of 30 fearless grots and conciecably tie them up all game?
Dude, read my posts. I'm not trying to justify a cheesy unit. My whole point is "Eldar scatterbikes are good, but there are units out there that provide challenges for them." The humble little Predator happens to be one example in generally the same price range (81 points for 3 bikes, 95 points for one predator). That's it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/27 00:40:06
Added some maths. Added allies. Re-did D weapons assuming no comp.
As for a dakka pred? Maybe, but a sicaran will more than likely be there and it will absolutely destroy bikes every turn. Bikes are dangerous to just about every vehicle and infantry, but die just as fast as marines. Definitely not the same as running serpent spam. Realistically I don't think 10 man units of bikes are that viable with how large their foot print is. You'll never be able to hide them. Smaller 3-6 man units seem more advisable since you can actually take advantage of their assault move and hide.
Also I think people are straight up over looking guardian squads. Preferred enemy on vypers, war walkers, and support weapons is amazing, and with the auto 6" run they are very mobile units with free heavy weapons. At 9 points a model their durability isn't that big of an issue.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
I don't care how many tournaments a persons sig has listed, or how many they have won when they post stupid things. That's a major pit fall in the community, the same large tournament attenders LOVE patting each other on the back and acting like know it alls on the net despite making some seriously silly claims, all while using the most busted abusive mechanics in the game.
Also way to prove my point, his listed tournaments are all heavily comped house rule 40k, we are discussing a broken book RAW. When you come onto a forum and assume everyone plays the same watered down version of 40k and tell them all to L2P, expect to catch a bloody nose.
"No the Eldar are completely fine!" He said as he waits for his scatbikes to arrive.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Well this is how certain discussions on message boards develop. It's a shout down. The angry mob posts as much as they can and drown the voices of dissent. For every guy who disagrees, no matter who he is and what his merits are, and no matter what his argument is, you'll get a dozen replies shouting him down and ridiculing his post's subject matter as well as often the person himself.
I for one agree with PanzerLeader wholeheartedly. I think I also qualify as a grey hunter of sorts since I've played 40K for over 20 years, so I've seen all sorts of army books.
People are so fast to claim they know what the community will and will not agree with, and what will or won't be allowed. Personally I'm very confident that once the dust settles everything in the Codex: Eldar will be allowed at GW's appointed points costs, but a few blanket modifications to D weapons and/or GCs/SHVs will be in place to keep it in check, just like there were small modifications to 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves and other similar issues.
Nice argument from authority chief.
I have played for 20 years as well and I am not going to hand wave a busted codex as fine.
I also find it hilarious coming from the same guy that wrote this:
Spoiler:
Therion wrote: I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.
That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chancetragedy wrote: @Orock - It wasn't presented as a realistic answer. It was presented as a similarly priced unit that could counter scatbikes. There is a difference, it's just one example trying to calm down the hysteria over the Eldar book.
Edit@razerious. It's pretty easy to deny jetbikes shooting at side armor by putting the predsin a corner. But we could argue all day over stuff like hypothetical positioning and such. But you have the right idea, wyverns are another good one although the AV12 front might get busted quickly unless hidden out of sight.
So now its hysteria? Again, same smug talking heads telling us it's fine that will play a heavily comped version of the game and who 90% will end up playing the very same crap their defending.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/27 13:37:54
@ Red Corsair: Calm down and lets have a discussion. First, I'm not waiting for any Eldar bits to arrive. Lets clear that up front. I really have no interest in playing Eldar and the only time I'll do so is at ATC if that's the army my team wants me to play. My current army of choice is an 1850 Sisters/AMTAC list that I brought to Vegas and still managed a respectable placement (20th overall) even though I had no super heavies, no psykers, no Forgeworld, and no D weapons. That includes playing against an AdLance formation, 2 Eldar lists with a lynx, a 7 FMC tyranid list, AV13 Necron spam and a Green Tide. I do my analysis using an action-reaction-counterreaction cycle and after looking through the Eldar book again, I'm still confident that I can beat it on the table top with my current list so long as there is average terrain.
Why specifically do you think its so busted? You never even answered that. You just launched a bunch of personal attacks without adding any constructive value to the thread. So lets act like the adults we theoretically are and have a real discussion or just leave us alone so we can have a discussion without spurious insults.
Edit: And as always, I'm willing to settle all questions over a game and a beverage of choice if you're anywhere near the Boston area.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/27 14:16:12
I see a lot of wailing from people who are probably bad at this game.
I'm willing to wager we'll get a rebalancing of subsequent codexes up to this power level, along with internal rebalance so GW actually sells models they've neglected in the past.
zerosignal wrote: I see a lot of wailing from people who are probably bad at this game.
I'm willing to wager we'll get a rebalancing of subsequent codexes up to this power level, along with internal rebalance so GW actually sells models they've neglected in the past.
Or, the status quo will be maintained, as it has been for a great many years, with balance between codices varying wildly from faction to faction. If I was a gambling man, I'd bet on things being about the same as they always have been going forward.
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
This has been covered. The jet bikes boost to hide out of LOS in the predators side armor. The predator player backs up 12" and turns his AV13 to face the jet bikes. The jet bikes now cannot reach the side armor with a 12" jump and so reposition again for a shoot next turn, causing the predator to reposition. Its a literal stand off in a vacuum with neither unit being able to leverage an advantage on its own. You could do the same thing with the newly popular Sicarians who are front AV 13, side AV 12.
Thanks for the acknowledgement Therion and Chance.
I don't think I get how the predator tank is in any way countering the jetbikes. The situation you're describing has the predator tank using 18" of movement just to stay alive meaning it can't put out any shots or accomplish anything in the game. I'm looking at this as the jetbikes are completely negating the tank by preventing him from doing anything in the game while still getting to shoot at other units and earning their points back. Seems to me more like the jetbikes are eliminating two units for their cost in this situation.
As far as power level concerns and questions as to why people make the claim that they're OP, it's based on comparisons to what other armies have for the same cost. Take a unit of firedragons and compare them to a unit of blasterborn now. The fire dragons get 5 shots instead of 4 (and I think you can assume BS5 base now instead of bs 4), have a 3+ save instead of a 5+ save, are AP1 melta (with an extra +1 on the damage table) instead of AP2 lance, get to run and shoot or shoot and run allowing them to cripple common threats like imperial knights, and for a mere 10 points get an exarch with improved WS, BS, W, I, A, and rerolls on hit/pen while the dark eldar pay 10 points just to get the extra A. The biggest slap in the face here is that the Blasterborn cost 125 points for this unit making the fire dragons cheaper to boot!
We could do some similar examples for Windrider jetbikes compared to Reaver Jetbikes or Howling Banshees compared to Wyches if you'd like. The problem is, the Eldar are getting significantly more for their points than other armies in the game. That's what is making them overpowered and it unbalances the armies.
I'm up for the challenge to face them because it'll mean something to me when I do pull of a win against them, but I do think this was a poorly balanced codex compared to what others have at their disposal. Yes, I agree that it is fun as hell and I wish every codex had as much stuff that seems fun and awesome in it, but that's not the world we're in and now they're standing on the shoulders of their opponents.
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
This has been covered. The jet bikes boost to hide out of LOS in the predators side armor. The predator player backs up 12" and turns his AV13 to face the jet bikes. The jet bikes now cannot reach the side armor with a 12" jump and so reposition again for a shoot next turn, causing the predator to reposition. Its a literal stand off in a vacuum with neither unit being able to leverage an advantage on its own. You could do the same thing with the newly popular Sicarians who are front AV 13, side AV 12.
Thanks for the acknowledgement Therion and Chance.
I don't think I get how the predator tank is in any way countering the jetbikes. The situation you're describing has the predator tank using 18" of movement just to stay alive meaning it can't put out any shots or accomplish anything in the game. I'm looking at this as the jetbikes are completely negating the tank by preventing him from doing anything in the game while still getting to shoot at other units and earning their points back. Seems to me more like the jetbikes are eliminating two units for their cost in this situation.
As far as power level concerns and questions as to why people make the claim that they're OP, it's based on comparisons to what other armies have for the same cost. Take a unit of firedragons and compare them to a unit of blasterborn now. The fire dragons get 5 shots instead of 4 (and I think you can assume BS5 base now instead of bs 4), have a 3+ save instead of a 5+ save, are AP1 melta (with an extra +1 on the damage table) instead of AP2 lance, get to run and shoot or shoot and run allowing them to cripple common threats like imperial knights, and for a mere 10 points get an exarch with improved WS, BS, W, I, A, and rerolls on hit/pen while the dark eldar pay 10 points just to get the extra A. The biggest slap in the face here is that the Blasterborn cost 125 points for this unit making the fire dragons cheaper to boot!
We could do some similar examples for Windrider jetbikes compared to Reaver Jetbikes or Howling Banshees compared to Wyches if you'd like. The problem is, the Eldar are getting significantly more for their points than other armies in the game. That's what is making them overpowered and it unbalances the armies.
I'm up for the challenge to face them because it'll mean something to me when I do pull of a win against them, but I do think this was a poorly balanced codex compared to what others have at their disposal. Yes, I agree that it is fun as hell and I wish every codex had as much stuff that seems fun and awesome in it, but that's not the world we're in and now they're standing on the shoulders of their opponents.
In the vacuum example, its a mutual negation. The Eldar jetbikes have to forfeit shooting to keep boosting around to get a flank shot on the tank. In a proper game where each unit gets mutual support, the context is completely different. The Predator wouldn't be worried about moving in that context because there'd be other units to handle things flanking it.
Trueborn are also more versatile than Firedragons. You can make a unit of Trueborn with 4 S6 blasts. Trueborn are also troop choices and so can have OBSEC in a CAD. They also have access to cheap, 55 point transports that they can fire out of to full effect. Firedragons have to expose themselves to shoot and get inside 6" to make the maximum effect of their weapon. They'll be exposed and your almost guaranteed to trade the entire unit for a single vehicle kill, especially if they have to run first to guarantee melta range. Trueborn can use a venom or raider to move up a flank and hang at the 12" mark while still making full use of their weapons from inside, giving them an additional layer of protection. Different strengths. The biggest difference in anti-tank capability is against super-heavy vehicles, where Fire Dragons really shine.
In the vacuum example, its a mutual negation. The Eldar jetbikes have to forfeit shooting to keep boosting around to get a flank shot on the tank. In a proper game where each unit gets mutual support, the context is completely different. The Predator wouldn't be worried about moving in that context because there'd be other units to handle things flanking it.
Trueborn are also more versatile than Firedragons. You can make a unit of Trueborn with 4 S6 blasts. Trueborn are also troop choices and so can have OBSEC in a CAD. They also have access to cheap, 55 point transports that they can fire out of to full effect. Firedragons have to expose themselves to shoot and get inside 6" to make the maximum effect of their weapon. They'll be exposed and your almost guaranteed to trade the entire unit for a single vehicle kill, especially if they have to run first to guarantee melta range. Trueborn can use a venom or raider to move up a flank and hang at the 12" mark while still making full use of their weapons from inside, giving them an additional layer of protection. Different strengths. The biggest difference in anti-tank capability is against super-heavy vehicles, where Fire Dragons really shine.
In an isolated example, the bikes can block the tank to prevent it from moving. Even if it only interferes with a few inches of movement for the tank, it allows the bikes to get in the side arcs to kill the predator tank. He can try to tank shock them, but then he can't move flat out so again the bikes get to hit the side armor and kill it. The tank does not negate the bikes even in an isolated example.
Trueborn are not troop choices and do not have objective secured. Few people would argue that the venom is a more desirable transport than a wave serpent or grav tank and fire dragons also have very easy access to venoms as well, but are you comparing venoms to wave serpents then or fire dragons to trueborn? Sure, you can give trueborn shredders instead, but then their output suffers even more compared to the Eldar units. What is being demonstrated there is that the Dark Eldar are versatilely worse than Eldar units.
The trueborn are strictly inferior at all ranges and against all targets because they have less shots with lower BS and worse bonuses on the damage table (in addition to worse survivability). This is not an advantage specific to super heavy tanks as you're claiming either since even if your target is a monstrous creature or elite unit, having more shots at a higher BS with increased survivability and at a lower cost is universally better. If you don't believe me, crunch some numbers. Even when they're outside of melta range against AV 10 the fire dragons average 1.5 explodes results with their shots while the trueborn average 0.3 explodes results. Put them in melta range and the fire dragons are just embarassing their peers. Where is your reasoning coming from that they're only better against superheavies? Perhaps you want to crunch them against against a target like a Riptide? the trueborn average 1.5 wounds from their shooting while the fire dragons average 2.5. Nope, that didn't work either. To add insult to injury, despite paying less points for the firedragons and their output being strictly superior, they also come with melta bombs standard, so if you happen to fail to kill something with their extraordinaire numbers, feel free to assault and finish the target off.
The fact that one army can pay 10 points for captains with +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A while also getting absurd bonuses like "deep strike without scatter for the entire unit" or "reroll to hit/wound" is obscene when other armies pay 10 points for +1 A and in some cases +1 LD. It's a direct example of Eldar getting far more for their points than other armies. I'm sorry bud, but if you think those concepts are balanced consider that in sports 90% of the fans of the home team will declare a foul was a bad call by the refs while simultaneously 90% of the fans of the away team will say it was a good call. I think your bias is influencing your assertions on this.
lessthanjeff wrote: In an isolated example, the bikes can block the tank to prevent it from moving. Even if it only interferes with a few inches of movement for the tank, it allows the bikes to get in the side arcs to kill the predator tank. He can try to tank shock them, but then he can't move flat out so again the bikes get to hit the side armor and kill it. The tank does not negate the bikes even in an isolated example.
How do you stop the vehicle from moving backwards? The tanks and bikes would actually enter a stalemate in an isolated example. If there are board edges then the tank actually can "win" the example by using a corner to protect it's sides and rears. The bikes win if the tank has to take dangerous terrain checks.
lessthanjeff wrote: Trueborn are not troop choices and do not have objective secured. Few people would argue that the venom is a more desirable transport than a wave serpent or grav tank and fire dragons also have very easy access to venoms as well, but are you comparing venoms to wave serpents then or fire dragons to trueborn? Sure, you can give trueborn shredders instead, but then their output suffers even more compared to the Eldar units. What is being demonstrated there is that the Dark Eldar are versatilely worse than Eldar units.
The trueborn are strictly inferior at all ranges and against all targets because they have less shots with lower BS and worse bonuses on the damage table (in addition to worse survivability). This is not an advantage specific to super heavy tanks as you're claiming either since even if your target is a monstrous creature or elite unit, having more shots at a higher BS with increased survivability and at a lower cost is universally better. If you don't believe me, crunch some numbers. Even when they're outside of melta range against AV 10 the fire dragons average 1.5 explodes results with their shots while the trueborn average 0.3 explodes results. Put them in melta range and the fire dragons are just embarassing their peers. Where is your reasoning coming from that they're only better against superheavies? Perhaps you want to crunch them against against a target like a Riptide? the trueborn average 1.5 wounds from their shooting while the fire dragons average 2.5. Nope, that didn't work either. To add insult to injury, despite paying less points for the firedragons and their output being strictly superior, they also come with melta bombs standard, so if you happen to fail to kill something with their extraordinaire numbers, feel free to assault and finish the target off.
The funny thing about this comparison is that blaster born are considered extremely inferior within their own codex. I find it very strange when people compare what are largely considered junk units which few people actually ever take to another unit and then use that comparison to determine whether said unit is under priced...if the fire dragons were balanced to be even with a unit of blaster born then they would rarely ever be taken.
BTW the only thing that makes blasterborn even worth considering is the ability to DS them in with a venom or ravager and either shoot from inside the transport or gain extra range by disembarking them. There is a nice trick using a ravager to avoid an imperial knights shield.
lessthanjeff wrote: The fact that one army can pay 10 points for captains with +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A while also getting absurd bonuses like "deep strike without scatter for the entire unit" or "reroll to hit/wound" is obscene when other armies pay 10 points for +1 A and in some cases +1 LD. It's a direct example of Eldar getting far more for their points than other armies. I'm sorry bud, but if you think those concepts are balanced consider that in sports 90% of the fans of the home team will declare a foul was a bad call by the refs while simultaneously 90% of the fans of the away team will say it was a good call. I think your bias is influencing your assertions on this.
10 pts is for vet sarges is a rip off. Hopefully GW continues this trend of +10 pts for +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A so that people actually use the upgrade with some regularity. In reality though it is a questionable value for most of the aspect warriors as it is more efficient just to get another model. That is double the attacks, double the shots, and double the wounds. Though +1 Ld is something adding more models does not bring...which CWE don't get and your example opposites do.
How do you stop the vehicle from moving backwards? The tanks and bikes would actually enter a stalemate in an isolated example. If there are board edges then the tank actually can "win" the example by using a corner to protect it's sides and rears. The bikes win if the tank has to take dangerous terrain checks.
The funny thing about this comparison is that blaster born are considered extremely inferior within their own codex. I find it very strange when people compare what are largely considered junk units which few people actually ever take to another unit and then use that comparison to determine whether said unit is under priced...if the fire dragons were balanced to be even with a unit of blaster born then they would rarely ever be taken.
BTW the only thing that makes blasterborn even worth considering is the ability to DS them in with a venom or ravager and either shoot from inside the transport or gain extra range by disembarking them. There is a nice trick using a ravager to avoid an imperial knights shield.
10 pts is for vet sarges is a rip off. Hopefully GW continues this trend of +10 pts for +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A so that people actually use the upgrade with some regularity. In reality though it is a questionable value for most of the aspect warriors as it is more efficient just to get another model. That is double the attacks, double the shots, and double the wounds. Though +1 Ld is something adding more models does not bring...which CWE don't get and your example opposites do.
The tank can move backwards all it wants, the jetbikes get to move 48" in a single turn so they can land on top of and around the vehicle. From there, it turns into the situation I was describing. If you park it in a corner then you cannot block both sides from being hit.
Yes, blasterborn are considered pretty lackluster now, but they are still used and were actually considered staples for quite a while, and that's the elite unit we got that most closely resembles the Eldar Fire Dragons. I'd be happy to compare similar tankbusting units from other armies like the chaos chosen I have; less special weapons (capped at 4), less mobility (can't run and shoot), lower BS, lower vehicle damage results, no rerolls to hit/wound/pen for the captain, no melta bombs, lower initiative, and 30 points more expensive (but I'm sure +1 toughness counters all of that). I did say I'd be happy to compare other units in the codex too though, wyches/howling banshees, reavers/windriders, vypers/venoms, falcon/ravager. I'd be happy to make comparisons for other armies too, but it's harder to determine value differences for MEQ when the stat lines are so different even though I still give substantial advantage to the eldar units.
As far as the nice trick of precision deepstriking is concerned, an even nicer trick is taking 3 units of fire dragons to put in 3 falcon grav tanks. You get 3 precision deepstrikes filled with nasties and don't have to pay the 110 point tax per vehicle that DE do for their archon with WWP. Plus, I'd much rather have the falcon gravtanks than the raiders. If you want to avoid the imperial knight's shield, look no further than the fire dragons themselves who can run to the side the shield isn't on before blasting him to bits with far better numbers than the blasterborn offer.
What all of this boils down to for me is that people should be looking at a sample unit like Fire Dragons and saying "Oh, compared to my tank busting infantry, those are faster, stronger, tougher, OR cheaper", not "Oh... those are faster, stronger, tougher, AND cheaper". It's also disconcerting to me that many Eldar players dismiss fire dragons because they consider wraith guard so much better. Here I am thinking I'd kill for something equivalent to fire dragons in most of my armies and instead I find I'm fighting for table scraps from another army.
Edit: almost forgot to mention the comment about the upgrade cost for leadership. I fully believe the only reason the Eldar don't get +1 LD for their captain is because they're already LD 9 base while my units are "profiting" from the +1 LD to go from 8 to 9. It's funny, but also kind of sad if that's what was supposed to balance out all the other stat upgrades.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/29 00:11:17
In the vacuum example, its a mutual negation. The Eldar jetbikes have to forfeit shooting to keep boosting around to get a flank shot on the tank. In a proper game where each unit gets mutual support, the context is completely different. The Predator wouldn't be worried about moving in that context because there'd be other units to handle things flanking it.
Trueborn are also more versatile than Firedragons. You can make a unit of Trueborn with 4 S6 blasts. Trueborn are also troop choices and so can have OBSEC in a CAD. They also have access to cheap, 55 point transports that they can fire out of to full effect. Firedragons have to expose themselves to shoot and get inside 6" to make the maximum effect of their weapon. They'll be exposed and your almost guaranteed to trade the entire unit for a single vehicle kill, especially if they have to run first to guarantee melta range. Trueborn can use a venom or raider to move up a flank and hang at the 12" mark while still making full use of their weapons from inside, giving them an additional layer of protection. Different strengths. The biggest difference in anti-tank capability is against super-heavy vehicles, where Fire Dragons really shine.
In an isolated example, the bikes can block the tank to prevent it from moving. Even if it only interferes with a few inches of movement for the tank, it allows the bikes to get in the side arcs to kill the predator tank. He can try to tank shock them, but then he can't move flat out so again the bikes get to hit the side armor and kill it. The tank does not negate the bikes even in an isolated example.
Trueborn are not troop choices and do not have objective secured. Few people would argue that the venom is a more desirable transport than a wave serpent or grav tank and fire dragons also have very easy access to venoms as well, but are you comparing venoms to wave serpents then or fire dragons to trueborn? Sure, you can give trueborn shredders instead, but then their output suffers even more compared to the Eldar units. What is being demonstrated there is that the Dark Eldar are versatilely worse than Eldar units.
The trueborn are strictly inferior at all ranges and against all targets because they have less shots with lower BS and worse bonuses on the damage table (in addition to worse survivability). This is not an advantage specific to super heavy tanks as you're claiming either since even if your target is a monstrous creature or elite unit, having more shots at a higher BS with increased survivability and at a lower cost is universally better. If you don't believe me, crunch some numbers. Even when they're outside of melta range against AV 10 the fire dragons average 1.5 explodes results with their shots while the trueborn average 0.3 explodes results. Put them in melta range and the fire dragons are just embarassing their peers. Where is your reasoning coming from that they're only better against superheavies? Perhaps you want to crunch them against against a target like a Riptide? the trueborn average 1.5 wounds from their shooting while the fire dragons average 2.5. Nope, that didn't work either. To add insult to injury, despite paying less points for the firedragons and their output being strictly superior, they also come with melta bombs standard, so if you happen to fail to kill something with their extraordinaire numbers, feel free to assault and finish the target off.
The fact that one army can pay 10 points for captains with +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A while also getting absurd bonuses like "deep strike without scatter for the entire unit" or "reroll to hit/wound" is obscene when other armies pay 10 points for +1 A and in some cases +1 LD. It's a direct example of Eldar getting far more for their points than other armies. I'm sorry bud, but if you think those concepts are balanced consider that in sports 90% of the fans of the home team will declare a foul was a bad call by the refs while simultaneously 90% of the fans of the away team will say it was a good call. I think your bias is influencing your assertions on this.
Three bikes cannot block off a predator completely. Even if they do block its forward and lateral movement, the Predator then gets to shoot the bikes and kill 1-2 of them on average, forcing morale and greatly reducing the threat to itself. It's still a stand off.
I missed the slot change on the Trueborn. That's what I get for not double checking. I'm not selling Trueborn are universally better. They have different strengths. In the new Eldar book, you can pick any one aspect and it will outperform virtually every other armies choices in its speciality field. Reapers are by far the best dedicated ranged shooting unit. Dragons are the best AT unit. Avengers are some of the best core infantry now. Warp Spyders are the best jump infantry in the game. But none of them are very resilient on their own. Even with a 3+, T3 hurts. The Eldar's organic DTs don't allow them to shoot from inside and force them to be exposed. You can mitigate some of this with allied DTs but then you run into a whole separate discussion of army building and list context. Looking only within the Eldar book, the infantry are really good but have some weaknesses that can be exploited: they are not very resilient and generally short ranged (under 24"). Once you start going outside the codex, and look at like sized units with similar roles, even the humble marine tactical squad stands a good chance of knocking down an Avenger squad of equal points assuming terrain provides an equal advantage to start.
Bharring wrote: FD aren't tougher than SM melta squads. T3 vs T4 is huge.
Faster on foot, sure. But for a melts drop, much slower ( unless you go with DE).
much more expensive for ablative wounds, and substantially worse in CC too.
I'm not sure which units you're referring to with some of these statements. I didn't say the marines are tougher, in fact I cited that the T4 was the only advantage they had while the fire dragons had 7 advantages over the marines and still cost 30 more points.
Three bikes cannot block off a predator completely. Even if they do block its forward and lateral movement, the Predator then gets to shoot the bikes and kill 1-2 of them on average, forcing morale and greatly reducing the threat to itself. It's still a stand off.
I missed the slot change on the Trueborn. That's what I get for not double checking. I'm not selling Trueborn are universally better. They have different strengths. In the new Eldar book, you can pick any one aspect and it will outperform virtually every other armies choices in its speciality field. Reapers are by far the best dedicated ranged shooting unit. Dragons are the best AT unit. Avengers are some of the best core infantry now. Warp Spyders are the best jump infantry in the game. But none of them are very resilient on their own. Even with a 3+, T3 hurts. The Eldar's organic DTs don't allow them to shoot from inside and force them to be exposed. You can mitigate some of this with allied DTs but then you run into a whole separate discussion of army building and list context. Looking only within the Eldar book, the infantry are really good but have some weaknesses that can be exploited: they are not very resilient and generally short ranged (under 24". Once you start going outside the codex, and look at like sized units with similar roles, even the humble marine tactical squad stands a good chance of knocking down an Avenger squad of equal points assuming terrain provides an equal advantage to start.
I'm not saying they block the predator completely, I'm saying by being placed around the sides of the vehicle it can only make about 14" of separation from the jetbikes, which lets them get into the side arcs by moving 12" at an angle instead of pursuing directly. Then they get their free assault move to move back up to and around the tank. Your scenario setup also seems to imply that the tank can forever move 18" in a direction, is this playing on an infinite board size for some reason? If your tank is shooting, then you're changing the circumstances on how it's going flat out every turn to cause a "stalemate" with the windriders.
Obviously trueborn aren't universally better than fire dragons, I already demonstrated that they're universally worse against all targets. That's why I'm asking where your claims are coming from that the fire dragons are only excelling against super heavies and such. I already showed the math that the 26 point trueborn with a blaster does less damage (against vehicles, monstrous creatures, and infantry), has has less speed (because fire dragons get an extra 6" of movement before or after shooting), is squishier (because 5+ save instead of 3+), and has less options (because no melta bombs), while costing more than the 22 point fire dragon. If you don't see that and wonder why people are saying the Eldar are OP I don't know what to tell you. What the Eldar are getting for their points is not on the same level as what other armies get and I've described several situations where 10 points for an Eldar > 10 points for other armies.
Yeah, T3 with a 3+ does hurt, almost as much as T3 with a 5+ or a 6+ as most other T3 models try to scrape by with. Your infantry having a shorter range isn't a weakness, it's a standard of almost all infantry shooting 24" that the Eldar get to overcome with the 6" run and having several units with higher movement (24" per turn for swooping hawks and average 26" per turn for warp spiders) . Everything in the game has weaknesses that can be exploited, but when you're getting substantially more mileage for your points you get to overwhelm the opponent through value of the units rather than through tactics. You asked what cases cause people to label the Eldar as OP, and I've given several direct comparison to show you paying less for more. Going into the "yeah, but they have their weaknesses" argument is a deflection tactic because the units we're comparing to are going to have the same weaknesses as well. Justify to me why the fire dragon should have all those advantages over his counterpart and I'll listen, but I've not heard an argument that justifies the discrepancies in value for fire dragon to trueborn or exarch to captain for other armies.
Eldar move *d6* inches on the run. With Fleet, its only 6" less than 1/3 of the time.
Let's compare Guardsmen to Guardians.
Guardians have +d6 run, BS 4, and s4 bladestorm guns at 12". At 9ppm.
Guardsmen have S3, and can't run+shoot, but have 24" range. At 5ppm.
If you get within 12", Guardians hit harder. Battle focus, however, only gets you 4" on average closer. So it by no means compensates for range.
Let's assume you let Guardians waltz up to Chaos Marines, while they twiddle their thumbs:
13 Guardians vs 9 CSM (same points)
Guardians (13)(2)(5/27) CSM (counting rends). 4.8 CSM die. 62.4 points worth, or a little better than half their cost.
If CSM instead shot first?
CSM kill (9)(2)(2/3)(2/3)(1) Guardians. 8 Guardians die. 76pts. Substantially better.
So, in the only scenario Guardians can do damage, assuming they are left alone to cross half the field, they do less to CSM than CSM would do to them.
Even with Battle Focus, there is no excuse for a 12" gun to get first salvo.
In the whole 'Open field, nothing else' scenario, it is much, much worse:
13 Guardians vs 9 CSM.
Boltgun shots kill 4/9 Guardians.
Shuriken rounds kill 5/27 CSMs.
-CSM hold off unless Guardians get within 30".
-Guardians try to blitz through the CSM threat range. Starting at 31" (we'll assume they get best-case), they move up 6, and happen to roll a 6" run. 19" away.
-CSM move away, to 24", and shoot
-CSM kill (9)(1)(4/9) Guardians, or 4.
-9 remaining Guardians move up 6", then roll a lucky 6" run (unlikely, but we'll let them). Pretending that gets everyone in range (remember, the dead Guardians came from the front), they can shoot.
-Guardians kill (9)(2)(5/27), or 3.33 CSM.
-5.66 CSM then shoot and kill (17/3)(2)(4/9) Guardians, or 10. So lots of overkill.
Assuming Guardians get really lucky, they kill only a couple CSM before getting outright destroyed. While CSM can control the engagement.
D6 battle focus only does so much.
(Yes, you get auto-6 run in the Warhost formation, but the formations *are* broken).
Not all of the Eldar dex is broken.
2015/04/29 15:16:14
Subject: Re:The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Guide
Ok I'll explain why it’s over the top, at least until the next codex comes out to power creep even more crap . Not all items in this codex are OP, but if you look at everything all at once. It paints a different picture.
CAD only arguments:
Eldar Missile Launchers now do it all. no extra cost nothing, they can do it all. I'm assuming at this point on all flak missiles in the next releases will be free. why not just FAQ all missile launchers get flak for free now
D-Weapons. Hum access to cheap and spamable D-weapons. There was nothing wrong with distort, but it just got better. I haven’t checked but I'm willing to guess, no fraking points increase on those wraithguard or support weapons
jetbike scatterlaser spam, Well GW had to make sure they sold the first run of these in a few days right? Sure armor 13-14 is a great counter to that. while your dakka is concentrated on the bikes the other units will make short work of your high armor.
Aspect Warriors sure they lost customization but what did they gain. Each aspect has a special power that the exarch didn't need to purchase, and the exarch has an extra power as well at no extra cost. Many did need changes to make them worth playing: Banshees, Shining Spears, and Striking Scorpions. A few of the other aspects got unprecedented buffs: Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, and Warp Spiders. Dark Reapers are now lower cost with infallible precision, yikes, all codices need some type of anti-flyer and this is it for the Eldar. Is it OP by itself? No, but certainly a powerful boost for a points cut. Swooping Hawks already were a very fast hit and run unit, now they just got faster, again no points cost for 18" jump. Warp Spiders while the monofiliment shooting rules under went changes it’s really a coin toss if it’s any better, but flickerjump is where they get stupid. I hope that RAI it was only to be once per round, but I doubt it. Now they can flickerjump and move away any number of times, only sure way to deal with them is assault them. If you can catch them in the first place. Possible? Very much so but they are going to be a highly frustrating unit to face.
Ahh, the Wraithkinght. I looked at every LoW on Battlescribe nothing can do what it can in that price range. Nothing! Is it beatable yeah sure, but that’s not what everyone is having a problem with. We're have the problem with the fact that nothing can do what it can with a similar points cost. Sooo, what's next GW? Cheaper super heavies and other gargantuan, maybe?
A few CAD lists may be a little much but I doubt they'll make it far. So, on to where the problems compound themselves.
Formation arguements:
So, all the crap above now has gotten stupider. The base hosts are not a problem they seem pretty fair, but the total cost is cheap and allows for a lot of non-sense. but wait is that a auto run of 6 inches for your entire army? battlefocus with out the randomness.
Aspect Shrine or Dire Avenger Shrine: who doesn't like BS 5 base shooty units or WS 5 base assault units FOR FREE?
If one cheap Wraithknight wasn't enough how about 5?
FREE is the problem every gain was for FREE in a army that was already a top competitor. FREEEE
I'm am Eldar Player, I guess I should rejoice right?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/29 15:21:41
22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+
(Yes, you get auto-6 run in the Warhost formation, but the formations *are* broken).
Not all of the Eldar dex is broken.
So you're counting on what to prevent eldar players from making broken lists?
As for the guardian vs chaos marine pairing, I'd include the free heavy weapon that the defenders are going to have, and always count a 6" run.
Anyone actually try out seer councils yet?
375 points gives you 8 powers and 11 psychic dice. I missed it the first few times I read the rules, the conclave generates 1 warp charge per warlock, regardless of the current psychic level.
It isn't all that hard to fish for multiple Eldritch Storms, and drop multiple AP3 fleshbane haywire pinning 10" blasts. Yeah, WC4 is high, but you get to re-roll the dice, and only need a 3+ to harness a warp charge. Between needing a 3+ and being able to re-roll, realistically you only need 5 dice, 6 if you want to be safe for a WC4 power.
If the first farseer gets eldrich, the 2nd fishes for invisibility.
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
I only rank the Codex as "good, but not great" (but take it with a grain of salt because I don't think any of the 7th edition books are universally great). I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points. 7 warlocks on jetbikes costs 350 alone. The Craftworld detachment is nice but the command benefit is marginal unless you're playing footdar which means lots of exposed T3 models. A lot of the reroll cover shenanigans are gone so it'll be fairly easy to stack wounds on T3 units and do damage through volume of fire.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
You are either delusional or play elder and thus will never think your army is by far broken. Look at it this way. Elder was already the army with the highest win percentage with the last codex. This codex buffed every single unit (many significantly) with no point increases (except serpents). Add in auto 6" run and additional bonuses from formations and it is absurd. And anyone who says the new wraith knight isn't severally under-costed is just plain dumb
8k points
3k points
3k points
. Once you start going outside the codex, and look at like sized units with similar roles, even the humble marine tactical squad stands a good chance of knocking down an Avenger squad of equal points assuming terrain provides an equal advantage to start.
2500 pts
1850 pts
2500 
2200 