The Path of Command: An Eldar 7th Ed. Guide

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**Bharring**

EML and Flak missiles:
-IoM ML costs a Heavy Bolter + 5 pts. +10 for Flak
-EML costs Heavy Bolter equiv + 15 points.

Eldar pay just as much as IoM for Flak, its just that they don't have the option to take a ML without Flak. So no advantage.

We looked at it in other threads, and the most cost-effective manner to field EML (WW) was 10pts more *per ML* than a Dev squad with Flak missiles.

So Flak isn't free for Eldar.

I agree with most of your other points. Scythguard. WK price point. Scatter bikes. Stupid. Formations are the whole stupid sandwich slathered with broken syrup. With a derptastic cherry on top.

I disagree about not being able to look at portions of the codex and see them as reasonable. I really think - and hope - CAD Swordwind, Black Guardian, and Mechanised armies will all be reasonable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In tournies, sure, Eldar are probably going to be more stupidly good than the last Dex. But not all games are going to be in tournies.

I didn't factor in the Warhost buffs, because I wasn't comparing Warhost guardians. I won't defend that gak. But a CAD I think can be reasonable.

**tedurur**

notredameguy10 wrote:
PanzerLeader wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:
Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.

I only rank the Codex as "good, but not great" (but take it with a grain of salt because I don't think any of the 7th edition books are universally great). I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points. 7 warlocks on jetbikes costs 350 alone. The Craftworld detachment is nice but the command benefit is marginal unless you're playing footdar which means lots of exposed T3 models. A lot of the reroll cover shenanigans are gone so it'll be fairly easy to stack wounds on T3 units and do damage through volume of fire.

Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.

The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.

Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.

You are either delusional or play elder and thus will never think your army is by far broken. Look at it this way. Elder was already the army with the highest win percentage with the last codex. This codex buffed every single unit (many significantly) with no point increases (except serpents). Add in auto 6" run and additional bonuses from formations and it is absurd. And anyone who says the new wraith knight isn't severally under-costed is just plain dumb

And what made Eldar so good in last edition? Oh yeah, thats right the Serpent spam. The Eldar codex is by no means bad but its not going to be the end all be all codex either.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Eldritch storm is a 10" blast if cast at the higher rate. Not 7". And if you have the spirit stone it's cast on 3 warp charge. With a re rollable test being a farseer... Much much better than a green if you ask me.

**lessthanjeff**

Bharring, why would your math for guardians not include the free weapons teams and free bonuses the Eldar are getting in their codex? That's rather relevant to people's questions about what makes the Eldar OP. Also, why not crunch the numbers with the troop choice that costs the exact same amount as the CSM? The Dire Avengers are the troop standard in my parts (although I expect a transition to bikes coming).

Dire Avengers get a free BS 5 from the Aspect Host and actually get to fire at their opponents and then run 6" away from the marines preventing them from being rapid fired at in return. The numbers for 10 Dire Avengers (130 points) vs 10 CSM (140 points...) have the Dire Avengers getting 4.6 wounds through vs the CSM's only inflicting 2.2 assuming both were at full strength for their shots. That doesn't even take advantage of the new Dire Avenger Bonus of having improved overwatch or counterattack nor does it include the exarch upgrade which I would consider an automatic choice. It's even scarier when you take them from the Dire Avenger Shrine where they'll average 7 wounds on the CSM in one round of shooting and still cost less than the CSM who only deal 2.2 wounds.

**Bharring**

Because many people - myself included - will never use the Warhost. Its broken as gak.

The numbers for CSM vs DA were run in another thread.

Assuming no other models, objectives, board edges, or anything else, on a wide-open board, assuming a 5+ cover save for CSM (something is likely to go their way, and they really control the engagement, as DAs can't battle focus out of full range), it takes 10 rounds for 10 DAs to kill 10 CSM, and they have 1.4 DAs left.

That means equal numbers of DAs cannot push equal numbers of CSM within the span of the game, even if everything except the 5+ cover goes their way. This is with CSM never double tapping.

If the DAs ever need to close in, CSM win easily. If CSM get within 12", they destroy DAs. If they get to charge DAs, they destroy them harder. If DAs ever either don't move into 18", or don't BF back out, CSM win.

So the CSM decide where they stand. They can move almost anywhere that still gives them a 5+. If they can get within 12", or force the DAs to BF for them, CSM win.

So if there is an objective at all, CSM win. If not, its a draw.

And this is naked CSM. 10v10. 130pts to 130pts.

**lessthanjeff**

Naked CSM is 140 points (75 base plus 13 for the next 5) to Naked Dire Avengers 130, but I'm going to have to ask which formation bonuses and such this was computed with. As I mathed out, the Dire Avenger formation kills 5.6 CSM in the first round of shooting alone even with the 5+ cover save.

This isn't the Warhost formation I'm talking about, and that's nice if you're choosing not to use the formations but for computation purposes they still have it whether you like it or not. It's exactly why people are saying the Eldar are OP and to compute without those bonuses and then say "see, they're not so bad" is disingenuous.

**GargoyleKing**

I think the majority of people are mis-understanding how the Warlock Councils work now. You only get powers based on how many warlocks are in the squad. But you get 1 warp charge point for each model on the table each turn. As warlocks die, you lose their warp charge points and once below each of the threshholds, you begin to lose powers. So, with 7 Warlocks you will only have 3 powers, but you will also have 7 warp charge points to spend from the unit.

**Bharring**

Its with a CAD. The CAD bonuses don't apply here.

And CAD Swordwind, I truly believe isn't so bad.

(I did forget the mandatory Champion on CSM)

**lessthanjeff**

Then I can't take these computations or arguments seriously and that feels very dishonest to me to spout numbers without saying "I'm ignoring several of the free bonuses that do affect the unit's strength even though there is no additional cost to them".

People aren't saying "the Eldar CAD is OP", they're saying "Eldar are OP" because the Eldar codex has those bonuses in them and they substantially affect their output for no additional cost.

**JohnHwangDD**

Hesperus wrote:
I can't get behind including the Avatar to buff Banshees. Simply put, against most armies the Avatar isn't going to survive long enough to supply the buff. T6/W6/3+/5++ just isn't going to cut it. That's especially true in a footdar list because there won't be many other targets for your opponent's AT weaponry. In general, I don't trust buff models that I can't hide in a unit.

Why can't you march the Avatar behind a T8 Sv3+ Wraithlord (or two)?

**Bharring**

Isn't that like saying CSM is broken, cause they can ally in a WK?

After all, the rules allow that travesty.

**Razerous**

Bharring wrote:
Isn't that like saying CSM is broken, cause they can ally in a WK?

After all, the rules allow that travesty.

I'm pretty sure Magnus had a good crack at some corrupted wraith constructs, whilst he was still 'loyal'....

**PanzerLeader**

GargoyleKing wrote:
I think the majority of people are mis-understanding how the Warlock Councils work now. You only get powers based on how many warlocks are in the squad. But you get 1 warp charge point for each model on the table each turn. As warlocks die, you lose their warp charge points and once below each of the threshholds, you begin to lose powers. So, with 7 Warlocks you will only have 3 powers, but you will also have 7 warp charge points to spend from the unit.

Nevermind. I missed that. Great catch and super good for the unit.

**lessthanjeff**

Bharring wrote:
Isn't that like saying CSM is broken, cause they can ally in a WK?

After all, the rules allow that travesty.

So to be clear, did you pick the most broken unit you could think of for anyone to take and settle on the WK? And no, I wouldn't compare manipulating the numbers and leaving out relevant stats for a unit in a direct comparison between dire avengers and chaos marines the same as not mentioning a completely different unit not involved in the comparison and not even in the same army book.

**chadbrochill17**

PanzerLeader wrote:
GargoyleKing wrote:
I think the majority of people are mis-understanding how the Warlock Councils work now. You only get powers based on how many warlocks are in the squad. But you get 1 warp charge point for each model on the table each turn. As warlocks die, you lose their warp charge points and once below each of the threshholds, you begin to lose powers. So, with 7 Warlocks you will only have 3 powers, but you will also have 7 warp charge points to spend from the unit.

Nevermind. I missed that. Great catch and super good for the unit.

I too feel like you discounted warlocks a lot.They dont get as many spells which reduces their overall utility by not having as many options, but they are still going to cast roughly the same amount of spells. There is also a lot of synergy with almost all of the spells they do get so no matter what you are going to be happy with warlocks. Plus they are a huge anvil unit, they take tons of punishment, way more than a lot of people estimate they should be able to take. I love my seer council and cant imagine playing eldar without one.

**Bharring**

I neither 'manipulated the numbers' nor 'left out important stats', unless you're talking about the 10pts for a Chaos Champion.

You were assuming apples, and I was talking oranges.

(Hard not to take implications of intellectual dishonesty personally.)

**lessthanjeff**

When you leave out the +1 BS, free 6" move, and ability to fire 3 shots in a single turn to justify your claim that a unit is comparable to another one even though it still costs less than the CSM without mentioning that your results leave out that information that's dishonest to me. People who log on here to read that math and don't understand it themselves will see your results and say "oh, I guess people were just exaggerating their power", and they'll wonder why the dire avengers are consistently kicking their butts in the game since you showed them they're no stronger.

I would equate that to the people who say "hey, I did a study and my results show smoking doesn't cause cancer" without mentioning "by the way, I'm paid by the tobacco companies and I may have gone out of my way to find ways to run the tests that supported what my boss wanted to hear." Math is too often manipulated by people to support their claims. You can pretend those bonuses aren't there all you want, but that's what people will see in the game and a lot of that is the source of why people are saying they're OP, so don't "disprove" it by leaving out those numbers.

**Goldphish**

The warlock council isn't rated highly because it's actually been nerfed quite a bit. The price is the same, the melee power is the same, but the amount of powers is drastically lower. Another problem is the loss of Baron. Bararroth can make due as a replacement if expensive for an already expensive unit.

More on the powers though. Before you could effectively guarantee that you would get all 6 warlock powers producing a 2+ 4++ re-rollable unit that was mobile and dangerous against everything. Now with only 3 powers your chances of getting the powers that you need are pretty low. Spending 400+ points without any real guarantee it will be effective is pretty bad.

Now you can of course take advantage of the council formation for 3+ casting which I agree can be powerful, but their inability to cast the same power multiple times does reduce their effectiveness. A farseer with stones and re-roll can effectively cast the new eldritch storm, but it still requires quite a few dice, an opponent that doesn't have enough dice to stop you, and well lets face it forgetting that you have enough guns to do this easier. I would stick with the blessings and maledictions with my council.

**Skinnereal**

The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.

So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.

**PanzerLeader**

lessthanjeff wrote:
When you leave out the +1 BS, free 6" move, and ability to fire 3 shots in a single turn to justify your claim that a unit is comparable to another one even though it still costs less than the CSM without mentioning that your results leave out that information that's dishonest to me. People who log on here to read that math and don't understand it themselves will see your results and say "oh, I guess people were just exaggerating their power", and they'll wonder why the dire avengers are consistently kicking their butts in the game since you showed them they're no stronger.

I would equate that to the people who say "hey, I did a study and my results show smoking doesn't cause cancer" without mentioning "by the way, I'm paid by the tobacco companies and I may have gone out of my way to find ways to run the tests that supported what my boss wanted to hear." Math is too often manipulated by people to support their claims. You can pretend those bonuses aren't there all you want, but that's what people will see in the game and a lot of that is the source of why people are saying they're OP, so don't "disprove" it by leaving out those numbers.

Your math is disingenuous though. You've been effectively comparing 195 points of Dire Avengers (the minimum points cost for the "Avenger Shrine" formation to receive those benefits) to 140 points of CSM. Those extra 55 points are missing and represent at least 2 CSMs and a heavy bolter which greatly changes the math involved. You are making a faulty assumption that any unit of Dire Avengers can receive those bonuses and than comparing equal size units while ignoring the actual points cost of the Avenger Shrine.

**MongooseMatt**

PanzerLeader wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:
Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.

I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.

I'm on the same island as Panzer.

*This guy knows what he is talking about...*

Denizen of the Dark City wrote:

What I want to know is why my Wyches couldn't have been on equal terms with Banshee's.

That is a tougher question...

Orock wrote:
Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them

Really? A fairly common appearance with my Dark Angels...

kloma wrote:
couple of things I noted as nasty as feck

Me too - I am looking at the Hemlock seriously.

Gets to pretty much anywhere on the table it needs when it comes on, Mindshock Pods go off, reducing your main target by -2 Ld.

You've taken Telepathy - maybe you get Terrify, for another -1 Ld. Maybe you don't, just the icing on the cake.

Then your Psychic Shriek goes off.

That will put a serious dent in a lot of nasty models. If you get certain other models in the same area, you can make it even worse, but the Hemlock does a nice job just on its own...

**Suite**

About the mighty guaranteed 6" run - you are (hopefully) aware that those models lose the Objective Secured-bonus from the CAD. All the gak of the past weeks included Obj.Sec.-jetbikes and what have you. But here many people forget you have to buy yourself an advantage of the expense of a disadvantage somewhere else. Like I said somewhere else, some people tend to just compile a load of what they heard as if the Eldar player had all simultaneously. That being said, surely is the 6" run good. But it buffs footdar and that type of army is not (yet) considered op. When do you whiners ever played a Guardian heavy infantry army?

**kooshlord**

Skinnereal wrote:
The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.

So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.

Aren't the warhost formation components fieldable as formations (detachments) all by themselves? So I could take a CAD and a wraithhost, and the wraithhost would get battle focus, just not guaranteed 6" battle focus from the warhost. No Guardians required.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:
About the mighty guaranteed 6" run - you are (hopefully) aware that those models lose the Objective Secured-bonus from the CAD. All the gak of the past weeks included Obj.Sec.-jetbikes and what have you. But here many people forget you have to buy yourself an advantage of the expense of a disadvantage somewhere else. Like I said somewhere else, some people tend to just compile a load of what they heard as if the Eldar player had all simultaneously. That being said, surely is the 6" run good. But it buffs footdar and that type of army is not (yet) considered op. When do you whiners ever played a Guardian heavy infantry army?

So take CAD scatbikes as your objsec core, and aspect shrine your aspect warriors. You lose guaranteed 6", but you still have bs 5 warp spiders/dark reapers, for instance. Seems pretty potent.

**Bharring**

If I want 2 or 4 Aspect units, or any number not divisible by 3, they don't get those bonuses.

If I don't want to spam either Bikes or 9ppm GEQs, they don't get those bonuses.

If I want to bring the Wraithguard unit my fiance got me for my birthday, without picking up 2 more units *and* a WraithKnight, my DAs don't get those bonuses.

If I want to field the Crimson Hunter she bought me the day we got the ring sized, and I don't want to buy or field two more, I need the CAD.

The Warhost is probably the strongest way to run Eldar, sure. But its not the only way. A lot of lists can't be done with Warhost formations. And DAs are still Troops in the CAD.

Saying that those numbers are bunk because I didn't take them in an Aspect formation *and* I didn't take another formation that requires a half dozen other units seems a bit nuts.

Isn't that like saying an SM Commander is always super fast and has lots of dakka because (1) hes always Smashbane, and (2) he's always taken with lots of GravBikes? Sure, a Captain with a Power Lance isn't going to be seen often, but he certainly isn't guaranteeing you can kill a DreadKnight.

**The Shadow**

Bharring wrote:
If I want 2 or 4 Aspect units, or any number not divisible by 3, they don't get those bonuses.

If I don't want to spam either Bikes or 9ppm GEQs, they don't get those bonuses.

If I want to bring the Wraithguard unit my fiance got me for my birthday, without picking up 2 more units *and* a WraithKnight, my DAs don't get those bonuses.

If I want to field the Crimson Hunter she bought me the day we got the ring sized, and I don't want to buy or field two more, I need the CAD.

The Warhost is probably the strongest way to run Eldar, sure. But its not the only way. A lot of lists can't be done with Warhost formations. And DAs are still Troops in the CAD.

Saying that those numbers are bunk because I didn't take them in an Aspect formation *and* I didn't take another formation that requires a half dozen other units seems a bit nuts.

Yeah, the various formations are somewhat restrictive, but remember you can add on other detachments, including CADs (unless that's against your tournament's rules or whatever). In a normal sized list, I really think you have no excuse to get at least one of the Craftworld 6" run Detachment things. They all contain good units that you'd probably include anyway, and the benefits are good. I'd agree that the Wraith and Crimson Hunter ones are the most restrictive, but there's no reason why you can't take another CAD with a spiritseer, wraithguard unit or two (or alternatively bare bones rangers/DAs) and then a Crimson Hunter.

**Bharring**

Isn't "I don't want to spam Jetbikes, or 30+ Guardians" a valid "excuse" not to use the Warhost formations? Especially if I clearly want DAs to fill their role?

Wraithguard are no longer troops even with a Spiritseer.

And 2+ Ranger/Guardian units on top of already taking 30+ Guardians is pretty insane.

If I'm doing an Aspect CAD, DAs are probably the troops. And I might field up to 4 of them, but you'd need 5 to do CAD + DA shrine. And they still wouldn't get the 6" run unless I included 30+ Guardians too.

I'd agree that the most competative lists will probably use the Warhost, but not all Eldar lists are built that way.

(Think about the points of doing Warhost, DA shrine, +CAD. with reasonable upgrades, you're looking at 1000 points just for the manditories.)

**Skinnereal**

kooshlord wrote:
Skinnereal wrote:
The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.

So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.

Aren't the warhost formation components fieldable as formations (detachments) all by themselves? So I could take a CAD and a wraithhost, and the wraithhost would get battle focus, just not guaranteed 6" battle focus from the warhost. No Guardians required.

[The following has been pointed out to be incorrect]

Nope, to get the 0-12 formations or 0-3 HQ options, you have to take 1-3 of the Guardian hosts.
If you leave out the Guardian part, you're going Unbound, and don't get the bonuses.
See the photo on the rumours thread for info.

The example in the codex says you could take:
a Guardian pack to unlock
some Warlocks and
a pack of 3 Aspects,
and also take a normal
1x HQ &
2xTroops &
1x Crimson Hunter
(or something along those lines)
The top bit gets the 6" run, and the Warlocks and Aspects get their own bonuses. The warlord can be chosen from either the top or bottom, to make that the primary detachment.

**HawaiiMatt**

Bharring wrote:
Isn't "I don't want to spam Jetbikes, or 30+ Guardians" a valid "excuse" not to use the Warhost formations? Especially if I clearly want DAs to fill their role?
(Think about the points of doing Warhost, DA shrine, +CAD. with reasonable upgrades, you're looking at 1000 points just for the manditories.)

I wouldn't call 9 jet bikes "spam". I'd actually call it the cheapest troops you can get.
I also would not call anything in the DA shrine "Manditories". If you don't want DA, don't take them, the shrine isn't unlocking anything else, and isn't giving any army wide bonus.

Warhost (wind rider)
Jet Seer
Jet Lock
3x3 bikes
vyper
358 points.

CAD:
Warlock
2x3 bikes
137 points.
That's 485 points for bare bones detachments.
IMO, the windrider host is too cheap. You get a good number of very useful units, and the setup cost is too low, allowing a lot of silly combos.
A basic CAD is 137 points, and gives you 2 objective secure bike units. That's hardly much of a tax to unlock every other combo you want.
Likewise, 358 for a farseer (you already want one), and 3 units of bikes with shred, and a vyper with shred is also very good.

You want to know how I know the new eldar are broken?
The formation bonuses and special rules are so good, that playing unbound eldar is actually weaker than using the formation.
Just type out all the free special stuff the detachments and formations get, and try and say it's a balanced book.

**DCannon4Life**

@Skinnereal: Your explanation of the availability of Eldar formations outside of taking a Craftworld Warhost is incorrect. Any formation that has its own Codex Entry can be taken by any army at any time.

These are the 'formations' [EDIT #2: These are NOT actually formations, just unit options available to a Craftworld Warhost.] that are solely contingent on first taking a Craftworld Warhost: Rangers (Outcasts), Engines of Vaul, Wraith Constructs, Heroes of the Craftworlds and Living Legends. The remaining formations: Seer Council, Aspect Host, Dire Avenger Shrine, Wraith Host, and Crimson Death can be taken on their own.

EDIT: @Krooshlord--your proposed CaD + Wraith Host is legal, and will function as you described (Battle Focus & 18" Guided Wraithsight).

**notredameguy10**

Skinnereal wrote:
kooshlord wrote:
Skinnereal wrote:
The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.

So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.

Aren't the warhost formation components fieldable as formations (detachments) all by themselves? So I could take a CAD and a wraithhost, and the wraithhost would get battle focus, just not guaranteed 6" battle focus from the warhost. No Guardians required.
Nope, to get the 0-12 formations or 0-3 HQ options, you have to take 1-3 of the Guardian hosts.
If you leave out the Guardian part, you're going Unbound, and don't get the bonuses.
See the photo on the rumours thread for info.

The example in the codex says you could take:
a Guardian pack to unlock
some Warlocks and
a pack of 3 Aspects,
and also take a normal
1x HQ &
2xTroops &
1x Crimson Hunter
(or something along those lines)
The top bit gets the 6" run, and the Warlocks and Aspects get their own bonuses. The warlord can be chosen from either the top or bottom, to make that the primary detachment.

You are incorrect. You are able to take ANY of the formations as part of a battle forged list without having to take the 1-3 guardian war hosts (you just won't get the craft world war host benefits.

From the codex:
"Note that you can also include any of the formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army."

aka wraith host can be taken WITHOUT a guardian war host, would still get the wraith host formation bonuses, but would not get the craft world war host benefits.