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 hiveof_chimera wrote:
What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?

Until they fix their gun profile shadow spectres will always be awful. Whoever thought a 1 shot 18" weapon was a good idea needs to stay away from the resin casting fumes. Personally I use mine as warp spiders. The model is to gorgeous to not use and they have similar load outs.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
I just don't see a reason to take a Dire Avengers formation though. You're not getting Obj. secured. You're not as good as the other ranged aspects. The only real benefit is the once per game Assault 3 which can either be worthless or amazing, but not nearly as competitive as spiders, hawks, reapers, or dragons. You're paying 13 points for glorified defenders without a weapons platform. T3 with a 4+ isn't going to stand up to much pressure, and a 24" range isn't that great. I feel like if you're taking this formation it's a preference for casual play.

um, and the bs5 on a basic troop, and the rerolling essentially all leadership based tests, and the auto run 6" even if firing, can damage any unit in the game with bladestorm, overwatch at bs2, extra shot for 1 turn for all units in formation, all for a 13 point troop

The auto-run comes from the 500-ish points of Guardians, not from the DA Shrine.

i never said it did. I just stated that the DA get that benefit if taken in the craft world war host in a dire avenger shrine

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?

I know how you feel. I bought 2 warp hunters 2-3 months ago before I realized they had gotten an update in 2013 that made them pretty meh. The new update figured that D weapons was too powerful for non-apoc games, so FW nerfed it to S7. Oh the irony.

With the new dex there is just no reason to field them until FW gives them their D back.

 ansacs wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?

Until they fix their gun profile shadow spectres will always be awful. Whoever thought a 1 shot 18" weapon was a good idea needs to stay away from the resin casting fumes. Personally I use mine as warp spiders. The model is to gorgeous to not use and they have similar load outs.

I've flicked an email to FW regarding the issue, rumour is they listen to their customers

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
I've flicked an email to FW regarding the issue, rumour is they listen to their customers

Interestingly enough my last ~5 emails I have sent about what I thought about unit X's rules and possible fixes actually have been implemented, to some degree...I doubt it was my specific email but it certainly does appear the writers get some of this information and act on it.
BTW the subjects emailed about; death riders, hades drills, R'Varna exp rules, elysian command squads, and several minor options in death korps lists.
So emailing about spectres might work. They could update IA11 with the info.

 ansacs wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
I've flicked an email to FW regarding the issue, rumour is they listen to their customers

Interestingly enough my last ~5 emails I have sent about what I thought about unit X's rules and possible fixes actually have been implemented, to some degree...I doubt it was my specific email but it certainly does appear the writers get some of this information and act on it.
BTW the subjects emailed about; death riders, hades drills, R'Varna exp rules, elysian command squads, and several minor options in death korps lists.
So emailing about spectres might work. They could update IA11 with the info.

Excellent, I'm a lot more hopeful than I was, how long before they implemented your changes?

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
Excellent, I'm a lot more hopeful than I was, how long before they implemented your changes?

I wouldn't call them "my" changes. Some took a month or two others a year (when the new imperial armour was released). I am pretty sure they just keep track of major topics and complaints on their facebook and emails.

I would love to see some new rules for Bel Annath

 Acidian wrote:
I bought 2 warp hunters 2-3 months ago before I realized they had gotten an update in 2013 that made them pretty meh. The new update figured that D weapons was too powerful for non-apoc games, so FW nerfed it to S7. Oh the irony.

With the new dex there is just no reason to field them until FW gives them their D back.

With FW, just pick and choose which rules you want to use. The Warp Hunter is a vehicle-mounted D-cannon, so the version with S(D) rules would be a better match for the model.


Also, that Warp Hunter is one sexy tank. I would totally get one or two if I got more of my backlog cleared away!

What do you guys think of the Falcon cloudstke rule. You basically get 3 DS'ing Falcons that dont scatter on arrival. Combined with an autarch for +1 to Res rolls, could be a semi alpha strike idea. Can you load them up with FDs before they drop if they are not dedicated transports for the FDs?
Idea being to drop 3 in, fire their weapons, hopefully survive a turn and then get out the FDs for even more firepower behind enemy lines.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Acidian wrote:
I bought 2 warp hunters 2-3 months ago before I realized they had gotten an update in 2013 that made them pretty meh. The new update figured that D weapons was too powerful for non-apoc games, so FW nerfed it to S7. Oh the irony.

With the new dex there is just no reason to field them until FW gives them their D back.

With FW, just pick and choose which rules you want to use. The Warp Hunter is a vehicle-mounted D-cannon, so the version with S(D) rules would be a better match for the model.


Also, that Warp Hunter is one sexy tank. I would totally get one or two if I got more of my backlog cleared away!

yeah, I really love the look of it. I have considered playing with older rules if my opponent would allow it. The problem is that, at least the first version of the rules, has it seriously undercosted. So I would feel bad bringing it unless I upped the price on it.

 Ratius wrote:
What do you guys think of the Falcon cloudstke rule. You basically get 3 DS'ing Falcons that dont scatter on arrival. Combined with an autarch for +1 to Res rolls, could be a semi alpha strike idea. Can you load them up with FDs before they drop if they are not dedicated transports for the FDs?
Idea being to drop 3 in, fire their weapons, hopefully survive a turn and then get out the FDs for even more firepower behind enemy lines.

You can. And the FDs can disembark upon arrival per the deepstrike rules.

I see a lot of people running warp spiders. There has been some discussion around this already, but is this really a competitive unit? Seems good against high T targets, but that only makes them good against armies that field non-flying MC? The Spinnerete Rifle is worse against armored targets than bikes with scatter lasers, so against heavy vehicle lists they seem useless?

The squads movement is really awsome, but the 12" range on the squads weapons means that you have to get really up close to the stuff you want to shoot at. This makes them an easy target for assault the next turn, or if an opponent shoots at you, there are very few weapons that can't shoot more than 24" and will have no problems hitting a squad of Spiders even if they flicker jump? However, I do see the potential of assaulting a weak WS/S unit so you can hit and run out of combat in the opponents assault phase. Due to T3 though, there are a lot of things you don't want to get into melee with.

Eldar Missiles on reapers seem interesting. If you are taking the formation you have to buy the exarch upgrade anyway, giving you a model that has BS6, reroll to hit against fliers, and ignore jink. So against flyers you have almost guaranteed 2 hits at S7 with no jink cover saves. Against non fliers you still get the 2 shots at S8 AP3 or 2 shots of S4AP4 blast. This unit seems to be a good counter against opponent eldar players that go for bike spam as well.

Can you flicker jump from overwatch?
Just imagining declaring a 16 inch charge

Nah, an overwatch attack is not a shooting attack, it's "like a shooting attack".

Would have been fun though, but an opponent could always chose not to fire overwatch and nothing would happen.

Overwatch is a NORMAL shooting attack with two exceptions: 1) it happens during the opponent's assault phase 2) it is resolved as 'Snap Fire'. That is all. The key word is 'normal', which means it follows the normal procedure for selecting a unit to shoot with, a target to shoot at, and a weapon to shoot. Etc.

So: You can very much Flickerjump vs. Overwatch.

From the Book:
"An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack."

From Flicker Jump:
"When a unit with this special rule is chosen as the target of a shooting attack, it can..."

So an overwatch attack is it's own attack, even if it behaves like a shooting attack.

 Acidian wrote:
I see a lot of people running warp spiders. There has been some discussion around this already, but is this really a competitive unit? Seems good against high T targets, but that only makes them good against armies that field non-flying MC? The Spinnerete Rifle is worse against armored targets than bikes with scatter lasers, so against heavy vehicle lists they seem useless?

Porque no los dos? But also, scatterbikes cost 8 points per model more, so a direct comparison is a little rough. The 10 Spiders cost about as much 7 scatter bikes and do slightly better damage against MEQ and generally better vs TEQ and most MCs. Most vehicles damagable by either squad are in a bad way.

The squads movement is really awsome, but the 12" range on the squads weapons means that you have to get really up close to the stuff you want to shoot at. This makes them an easy target for assault the next turn, or if an opponent shoots at you, there are very few weapons that can't shoot more than 24" and will have no problems hitting a squad of Spiders even if they flicker jump? However, I do see the potential of assaulting a weak WS/S unit so you can hit and run out of combat in the opponents assault phase. Due to T3 though, there are a lot of things you don't want to get into melee with.

Most basic troop anti infantry is around 24". If the Spider shoot from 10" away, run 4" back, and assault move 7" back from there.... that pulls you out of most assault ranges, especially if the enemy tries to shoot you a bit 1st. Most weapons that boast range to continually threaten Spiders would pose equal threat to units of more value, like tanks or those bikes from earlier. The annoyance factor will keep enemy priorities out of whack.

Eldar Missiles on reapers seem interesting. If you are taking the formation you have to buy the exarch upgrade anyway, giving you a model that has BS6, reroll to hit against fliers, and ignore jink. So against flyers you have almost guaranteed 2 hits at S7 with no jink cover saves. Against non fliers you still get the 2 shots at S8 AP3 or 2 shots of S4AP4 blast. This unit seems to be a good counter against opponent eldar players that go for bike spam as well.

And Reapers are quite good

Goobi2 wrote:

 Acidian wrote:
I see a lot of people running warp spiders. There has been some discussion around this already, but is this really a competitive unit? Seems good against high T targets, but that only makes them good against armies that field non-flying MC? The Spinnerete Rifle is worse against armored targets than bikes with scatter lasers, so against heavy vehicle lists they seem useless?

Porque no los dos? But also, scatterbikes cost 8 points per model more, so a direct comparison is a little rough. The 10 Spiders cost about as much 7 scatter bikes and do slightly better damage against MEQ and generally better vs TEQ and most MCs. Most vehicles damagable by either squad are in a bad way.

The squads movement is really awsome, but the 12" range on the squads weapons means that you have to get really up close to the stuff you want to shoot at. This makes them an easy target for assault the next turn, or if an opponent shoots at you, there are very few weapons that can't shoot more than 24" and will have no problems hitting a squad of Spiders even if they flicker jump? However, I do see the potential of assaulting a weak WS/S unit so you can hit and run out of combat in the opponents assault phase. Due to T3 though, there are a lot of things you don't want to get into melee with.

Most basic troop anti infantry is around 24". If the Spider shoot from 10" away, run 4" back, and assault move 7" back from there.... that pulls you out of most assault ranges, especially if the enemy tries to shoot you a bit 1st. Most weapons that boast range to continually threaten Spiders would pose equal threat to units of more value, like tanks or those bikes from earlier. The annoyance factor will keep enemy priorities out of whack.

Eldar Missiles on reapers seem interesting. If you are taking the formation you have to buy the exarch upgrade anyway, giving you a model that has BS6, reroll to hit against fliers, and ignore jink. So against flyers you have almost guaranteed 2 hits at S7 with no jink cover saves. Against non fliers you still get the 2 shots at S8 AP3 or 2 shots of S4AP4 blast. This unit seems to be a good counter against opponent eldar players that go for bike spam as well.

And Reapers are quite good

Ah, I missed that the unit had Battle Focus , but how are you moving the unit in the assault phase? I like your point about the spiders being so cheap and that there are probably more scary stuff on the table that your opponent will shoot at.

The reapers are good, but the question was more if the 20 points EML was worth taking or not. It looks really good and it's only 12 points more than giving the exarch starshot missiles.

Spiders are still jetpack infantry, so they get a 2d6" move in the assault phase.

So they'll move 2d6+6" in movement, battle focus d6" (6" in warhost) and still shoot, then 2d6" jetpack somewhere. If the enemy tries to shoot them, they can flicker 2d6". Next turn, they'll only move 6" + d6" battle focus + 2d6" assault, but hey. A unit of alive spiders is better than a dead one.

Spiders are awesome on a cluttered field, as odds are good they can find somewhere to hide on the flicker. I have seen them struggle to get out of assault range once they have pulled into gun range. IMO, that's the best way to deal with them.

Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.

Odd: I don't see 'Flickerjump' listed as a special rule under the description of the Warp Jump Generator itself (p 154), nor do I see it listed under the Warp Spider special rules (p 124). Is it attached (either to Warp Spiders or the generator itself) on some other page? Otherwise, we have an unattached Special Rule, yes?

DCannon4Life wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.

Odd: I don't see 'Flickerjump' listed as a special rule under the description of the Warp Jump Generator itself (p 154), nor do I see it listed under the Warp Spider special rules (p 124). Is it attached (either to Warp Spiders or the generator itself) on some other page? Otherwise, we have an unattached Special Rule, yes?

Should be listed on page 124 in the units description.

 Ratius wrote:
What do you guys think of the Falcon cloudstke rule. You basically get 3 DS'ing Falcons that dont scatter on arrival. Combined with an autarch for +1 to Res rolls, could be a semi alpha strike idea. Can you load them up with FDs before they drop if they are not dedicated transports for the FDs?
Idea being to drop 3 in, fire their weapons, hopefully survive a turn and then get out the FDs for even more firepower behind enemy lines.

Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.

 Acidian wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.

Odd: I don't see 'Flickerjump' listed as a special rule under the description of the Warp Jump Generator itself (p 154), nor do I see it listed under the Warp Spider special rules (p 124). Is it attached (either to Warp Spiders or the generator itself) on some other page? Otherwise, we have an unattached Special Rule, yes?

Should be listed on page 124 in the units description.

It's attached to the unit of Warp Spiders, but it just says that "a unit with this special rule" may flickerjump, it doesn't say anything along the lines of "a unit entirely composing of models with this special rule", so I would interpret that as them being able to jump even if there's an Autarch attached, but then again I'm not the best at these little intricacies of the rules.

Note that DAs lose their defensive training with Eldred attached. Probably doesn't change anything, but that's easy to miss.

3xFalcons will probably do some nasty alpha strikes.

Bharring wrote:
Note that DAs lose their defensive training with Eldred attached. Probably doesn't change anything, but that's easy to miss.

3xFalcons will probably do some nasty alpha strikes.

Oh yeah, I did miss that...

Hmmm... That's interesting (and annoying) as I quite liked sticking a Farseer/Eldrad in a unit of DAs with the Shimmershield. I found that, with Fortune, they were quite a good core unit in my battleline. It may be worth putting Eldrad within a Seer Council then.

 The Shadow wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Note that DAs lose their defensive training with Eldred attached. Probably doesn't change anything, but that's easy to miss.

3xFalcons will probably do some nasty alpha strikes.

Oh yeah, I did miss that...

Hmmm... That's interesting (and annoying) as I quite liked sticking a Farseer/Eldrad in a unit of DAs with the Shimmershield. I found that, with Fortune, they were quite a good core unit in my battleline. It may be worth putting Eldrad within a Seer Council then.

If you have a foot seer council, not having eldrad would be a terrible mistake.

I'd still do it. I did it quite often in the old Dex (with a Farseer, never ran Eldred). Quite a lot of fun, but 2x Farseers felt a bit deathstar-y, which wasn't as fun.

I got a reply from forgeworld, looks promising, they're going to be updating the FAQ's

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.

Wouldn't a Ghostwalk Matrix let them DS into cover? That would make them easier to DS in, despite their size.
Or, would that trigger a DS Mishap?