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Bharring wrote:
Formal divisions, sure, lots of work.

"Maybe I'll ask Steve for a game, because Bobby likes his netlists" isn't much work at all.

I thought this thread was about pick up games. I seldom know my opponents beforehand.

I suppose you wouldn't know in a blind pick up game. But has that really changed anything? You could always wind up going against a broken list before the new Dex. So if we aren't banning all codexes that can produce a "broken list", isn't it a bit uneven to ban one of them?

If it's good form not to bring Wraith constructs and ScatterBikes, or other ridiculous options, wouldn't it also be good form not to bring super Grav stars or Knight spam to pickup games?

Bharring wrote:
I suppose you wouldn't know in a blind pick up game. But has that really changed anything? You could always wind up going against a broken list before the new Dex. So if we aren't banning all codexes that can produce a "broken list", isn't it a bit uneven to ban one of them?

If it's good form not to bring Wraith constructs and ScatterBikes, or other ridiculous options, wouldn't it also be good form not to bring super Grav stars or Knight spam to pickup games?

Because many people will say that bringing a few OP units isn't OP and quite fair. "It's just a few scatter bikes and just two WK's."
Not that that will always be the case, but what I'm trying to say is that "reasonable" isn't always going to be the same for people.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
So as an eldar player (I've been one for quite a while) the talk of banning the codex has come up along with banning units. I just wanted to ask the general public since I'll be playing eldar aspect list is it fair for me to say no to things like: Flyrants, grav-cents, Belakor etc. in return?
Thanks

My local group made a choice awhile ago, formations can be used, but must be paid for out of your FOC, and we all use the FOC. .If a formation requires more then the FOC allows (the tyranid one that requires 3 gargoyles, one crone, and one harpy as an example), then you can take it, but have to sacrifice two slots from non-troop (so in the previous example, 1 over in fast attack has to be paid for by 2 slots from other areas). The advantage of taking a formation, should be the special rules of the formation, not being able to spam more. I think this has gone a long way to limiting spamming, and certainly gets rid of the 5 flyrant silliness. And I play tyranids.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I suppose you wouldn't know in a blind pick up game. But has that really changed anything? You could always wind up going against a broken list before the new Dex. So if we aren't banning all codexes that can produce a "broken list", isn't it a bit uneven to ban one of them?

If it's good form not to bring Wraith constructs and ScatterBikes, or other ridiculous options, wouldn't it also be good form not to bring super Grav stars or Knight spam to pickup games?

Because many people will say that bringing a few OP units isn't OP and quite fair. "It's just a few scatter bikes and just two WK's."
Not that that will always be the case, but what I'm trying to say is that "reasonable" isn't always going to be the same for people.

I've had necron players tell me my blastmaster spam list is OP and absurd. Same with some eldar players.
A lot of people on this forum think drop pod lists are completely unfair too. OP is a very relative term.

Go to warseer. There is someone arguing the WK got worse somehow, genestealers are good, and warp talons beat eldar.

It is entirely subjective. Even if it were a clean continuum, how would cutting out an entire faction be fair? So, let's say I can't bring Swordwind to a pug, then why is it OK to stomp my demi company SM with an adamantium lance?

Bharring wrote:
It is entirely subjective. Even if it were a clean continuum, how would cutting out an entire faction be fair? So, let's say I can't bring Swordwind to a pug, then why is it OK to stomp my demi company SM with an adamantium lance?

Sometimes it's combos that break the game. Sometimes it's formations. Other times it's the entire dex.
I don't think it's fair for someone with a lower tier dex (and I'm talking bottom of the barrel) to have to waste 2-3 hours playing a game that probably won't go well. 40k is not a short game, I can only get 2-3 a day in on a weekend. 1 on a weekday.
Again, if people talk before hand it can work. But with a pick up game I probably wouldn't be too interested with my CSM. If I used allies a lot of my other dexes would work but I don't. The eldar are a uniquely strong stand alone codex that doesn't need anything to be good. Even necrons need a formation to be really obscene.

@kburn, could you fix your quote?

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm sure an Eldar player going heavy on the Rangers and Guardians might resent that characterization.

Because we see so many Eldar lists with Rangers and Guardians around. /s They're not even that bad, and taking them in conjunction with anything else would still make the army far eclipse anything other armies can put out.

Of course, all we'll see is fluffy iyanden and siam hann armies "they started 10 years ago" so if you lose, you nid 2 git gud

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

I'm not saying that's what I'm going to do, in fact it would've been better if explained it more. I'm saying that games tend to be more fun when there isn't destroyer weapons, invisibility(invinciblity), 2++ re-rollable saves and 5 flying monstrous creatures on the board. So when an opponent says no to those units (which I agree with) he shouldn't be taking his tournamament crusher list either.

Because even the weakest aspect warriors are still far stronger than flyrant spam. If you want to get rid of all the unfair, unfun units, everything in the eldar codex should be banned other than guardians and rangers.

Good on you for picking on the only arsenal Tyranids have. Its like shooting a puppy after you kick it,

"Even the weakest Aspect Warrior list" loses very, very badly to Flyrant spam, I would bet.

Its statements like that we Eldar players fear.

Have you faced many Aspect lists?

kburn wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm sure an Eldar player going heavy on the Rangers and Guardians might resent that characterization.

Because we see so many Eldar lists with Rangers and Guardians around. /s They're not even that bad, and taking them in conjunction with anything else would still make the army far eclipse anything other armies can put out.

Of course, all we'll see is fluffy iyanden and siam hann armies "they started 10 years ago" so if you lose, you nid 2 git gud

Of the four Eldar armies we have at my local store, there's two Guardian heavy lists, approximately 60 in one and 40 in the other, a ranger heavy army, and one Saim-Hann list the guy's been playing it since at least the last Eldar codex came out, maybe even before that. Just thought I'd point that out, as although this is by no means representative of the whole Eldar community, it helps to illustrate that not all Eldar players are the same, and as such should not all be lumped together

Sure, you can deny me my power units. I don't care. No really I don't. It's a game after all.

*sobs in corner clutching Flyrants*

I'm not really complaining about Flyrants so much as saying an Aspect army isn't broken.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not really complaining about Flyrants so much as saying an Aspect army isn't broken.

Broken, no. Undercosted? Probably.

So paying CSM prices for a t3 4+ is undercosted?

Or 25 ppm for Shining Spears?

Or paying ASM prices for things that hit like ASMs, but infiltrate instead of having jetpacks and are t3, so die much faster?

How often have you played Swordwind?

kburn wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I'm sure an Eldar player going heavy on the Rangers and Guardians might resent that characterization.

Because we see so many Eldar lists with Rangers and Guardians around. /s They're not even that bad, and taking them in conjunction with anything else would still make the army far eclipse anything other armies can put out.

Of course, all we'll see is fluffy iyanden and siam hann armies "they started 10 years ago" so if you lose, you nid 2 git gud

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

I'm not saying that's what I'm going to do, in fact it would've been better if explained it more. I'm saying that games tend to be more fun when there isn't destroyer weapons, invisibility(invinciblity), 2++ re-rollable saves and 5 flying monstrous creatures on the board. So when an opponent says no to those units (which I agree with) he shouldn't be taking his tournamament crusher list either.

Because even the weakest aspect warriors are still far stronger than flyrant spam. If you want to get rid of all the unfair, unfun units, everything in the eldar codex should be banned other than guardians and rangers.

Good on you for picking on the only arsenal Tyranids have. Its like shooting a puppy after you kick it,

Please tell me you are trolling, an Aspect list will NOT beat a flyrant spam army, Flyrant spam wins tournaments against serpent spam, screamer stars etc.
I don't mind playing against a flyrant or two but I really don't want to face more than that, besides isn't there stuff like dakka fexes and whole concealed armies from venomthroapes or whatever. Look I'll even type my list here, surely this will not beat the competetive armies out there.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not really complaining about Flyrants so much as saying an Aspect army isn't broken.

Fair comment. Wings upgrade is undercosted though, I will admit as a Nid player. I'm starting to take two in a list these days just for variety (normally run at least three) and so my opponent can have more fun. I recently brought three to a 1250 list and played against a SM list and it was gut-wrenching to see my opponents army do nothing against it. For all the cheese I bring or face, I still want both of us to have fun.

Has anyone actually complained about that list? Wow.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
Please tell me you are trolling, an Aspect list will NOT beat a flyrant spam army, Flyrant spam wins tournaments against serpent spam, screamer stars etc.
I don't mind playing against a flyrant or two but I really don't want to face more than that, besides isn't there stuff like dakka fexes and whole concealed armies from venomthroapes or whatever. Look I'll even type my list here, surely this will not beat the competetive armies out there.

Spoiler:

Avatar of khaine
Jain zar
5 DA, exarch in WS w EML
5 DA, exarch in WS w EML
6 striking scorpions, Exarch w claw (aspect formation)
6 Howling Banshees, Exarch w Executioner (aspect formation)
5 Fire Dragons, Exarch in WS (aspect formation)
3 Shadow Spectres, Exarch w Prism Blaster
6 Warp Spiders, Exarch
Crimson Hunter

Surely this list isn't that bad, is it?
oh and BTW I've only got 10 DA so that's why they're in units of 5

It's a good list. Ofc it won't beat Flyrant spam, it doesn't have the durability to withstand the firepower or the Skyfire to deal enough damage to them (they will most likely go after your WS first to get rid of Skyfire and moility) but against one or two you should be fine.

Bharring wrote:
So paying CSM prices for a t3 4+ is undercosted?

Or 25 ppm for Shining Spears?

Or paying ASM prices for things that hit like ASMs, but infiltrate instead of having jetpacks and are t3, so die much faster?

How often have you played Swordwind?

Now we can talk about Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons. Yes, not broken, but probably too good for the points.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
Please tell me you are trolling, an Aspect list will NOT beat a flyrant spam army, Flyrant spam wins tournaments against serpent spam, screamer stars etc.
I don't mind playing against a flyrant or two but I really don't want to face more than that, besides isn't there stuff like dakka fexes and whole concealed armies from venomthroapes or whatever. Look I'll even type my list here, surely this will not beat the competetive armies out there.

Spoiler:

Avatar of khaine
Jain zar
5 DA, exarch in WS w EML
5 DA, exarch in WS w EML
6 striking scorpions, Exarch w claw (aspect formation)
6 Howling Banshees, Exarch w Executioner (aspect formation)
5 Fire Dragons, Exarch in WS (aspect formation)
3 Shadow Spectres, Exarch w Prism Blaster
6 Warp Spiders, Exarch
Crimson Hunter

Surely this list isn't that bad, is it?
oh and BTW I've only got 10 DA so that's why they're in units of 5

It's a good list. Ofc it won't beat Flyrant spam, it doesn't have the durability to withstand the firepower or the Skyfire to deal enough damage to them (they will most likely go after your WS first to get rid of Skyfire and moility) but against one or two you should be fine.

And that's the thing, I don't mind facing a Flyrant or two but anymore than that and you might as well be facing another tourney list than stomping a bunch of T3 3/4+ armour models with only 3 models that do damage to your army.

Fire Dragons - Cheaper than Melta Sternguard, but less survivable, laughably worse in CC, no alternative fire modes, and can't Melta Drop. They can move d6" further though, and if they somehow survive the retaliation - much less likely than Sternguard - they can shoot more Melta. If they can get to another target.

The turn before they hop out, their 110+ transport can move further than a 35pt Rhino, but the turn of, it can't. And depending on Pivoting is played (check YMDC), the Rhino gets the Sternies a lot closer.

However you slice it, though, no transport can match the Droppod for getting a melta unit into position.

So they seem a little good, but not unreasonable compared to Sternguard.

Warp Spiders. What were they thinking with Flickerjump, I'll never know. Fortunately, their shooting versus your vehicles got crapton worse, and their other shooting vs Marines didn't change much. Shoot them at close range? At long-ish range, force them to move back, so they can't shoot next round? Charge them? Spammed, they could be a problem. A single unit shouldn't be too scary, though.

I don't think those units are as scary as you'd have us believe. And several other aspects, as pointed out, certainly aren't undercosted.

Honestly, have you never faced Aspect Warriors? Try shooting them. With boltguns.

Bharring wrote:
Fire Dragons - Cheaper than Melta Sternguard, but less survivable, laughably worse in CC, no alternative fire modes, and can't Melta Drop. They can move d6" further though, and if they somehow survive the retaliation - much less likely than Sternguard - they can shoot more Melta. If they can get to another target.

The turn before they hop out, their 110+ transport can move further than a 35pt Rhino, but the turn of, it can't. And depending on Pivoting is played (check YMDC), the Rhino gets the Sternies a lot closer.

However you slice it, though, no transport can match the Droppod for getting a melta unit into position.

So they seem a little good, but not unreasonable compared to Sternguard.

Warp Spiders. What were they thinking with Flickerjump, I'll never know. Fortunately, their shooting versus your vehicles got crapton worse, and their other shooting vs Marines didn't change much. Shoot them at close range? At long-ish range, force them to move back, so they can't shoot next round? Charge them? Spammed, they could be a problem. A single unit shouldn't be too scary, though.

I don't think those units are as scary as you'd have us believe. And several other aspects, as pointed out, certainly aren't undercosted.

Honestly, have you never faced Aspect Warriors? Try shooting them. With boltguns.

Who's this in reply to, I'm already aware that shooting them with anything will KILL them

Martel. Several people still seem to believe just about any Eldar list is broken.

It definitely got a lot harder to do a reasonable list, but there is a lot of reasonable options in the book too.

I've taken as many boltguns out of my lists as a I can, but I get the point. Also, I said undercosted, not broken. I'm just tired of Eldar being undercosted.

People shouldn't have to choose between "reasonable" and "unreasonable" options. Everyone should be able to field the best list they can and be able to have a good game.

For the record, drop pod melta backfires a lot. Clever set up and drop pods getting in each others way and all that. Melta has terrible, terrible range.

Bharring wrote:
So paying CSM prices for a t3 4+ is undercosted?

Or 25 ppm for Shining Spears?

Or paying ASM prices for things that hit like ASMs, but infiltrate instead of having jetpacks and are t3, so die much faster?

How often have you played Swordwind?

Considering the weapon you get for CSM prices (Which are very poor to begin with), and the rules, the ability to move 6, run 6, and still shoot...Yeah, I'd trade my CSM in for that, they got mauled by mass rending shots from Dire Avengers anyways.

On the other hand, CSM are one of the worst troops in the game, so. Not really a fair comparison imo.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
On the other hand, CSM are one of the worst troops in the game, so. Not really a fair comparison imo.

Those crazy CSM bringing their bottom tier infantry into a discussion about codex strength!
As if they matter

DAs move 6", run d6", then shoot 18".
CSM move 6", then shoot 24".

Unless the DAs roll a 6 (undependable), CSM outrange them. And that's before factoring in any upgrades CSM can have.

Bladestorm means a Shurken Catapult shot is a bit better than *half* as good against a CSM as a boltgun is against a DA. Said another way, if it weren't for Bladestorm, a Shuriken shot would be exactly *half* as deadly to a CSM than a Boltgun round is to a DA.

In melee, assuming CSM are naked, a DA has a 1/18 chance of killing a Marine. A Marine has a 1/6 chance *per attack* to kill a DA. DAs go first, but will get their clocks cleaned easily.

So, in summary:
-18"+ CSM win no contest
-12-18" w/o cover DAs do a little better than CSM
-0-12" CSM destroy DAs
-Melee, CSM destroy DAs.

For threat ranges, battle focus is nice, but 24"+d6" will never be as good as 30" standard. Might match the number, but has to commit before rolling, and the odds aren't good.

DAs do better against 2+ saves than CSM, bust much, much worse to AV10-12. And have far, far fewer options.

I maintain DAs compare reasonably to *naked CSMs*.

Bharring wrote:
DAs move 6", run d6", then shoot 18".
CSM move 6", then shoot 24".

Unless the DAs roll a 6 (undependable), CSM outrange them. And that's before factoring in any upgrades CSM can have.

Bladestorm means a Shurken Catapult shot is a bit better than *half* as good against a CSM as a boltgun is against a DA. Said another way, if it weren't for Bladestorm, a Shuriken shot would be exactly *half* as deadly to a CSM than a Boltgun round is to a DA.

In melee, assuming CSM are naked, a DA has a 1/18 chance of killing a Marine. A Marine has a 1/6 chance *per attack* to kill a DA. DAs go first, but will get their clocks cleaned easily.

So, in summary:
-18"+ CSM win no contest
-12-18" w/o cover DAs do a little better than CSM
-0-12" CSM destroy DAs
-Melee, CSM destroy DAs.

For threat ranges, battle focus is nice, but 24"+d6" will never be as good as 30" standard. Might match the number, but has to commit before rolling, and the odds aren't good.

DAs do better against 2+ saves than CSM, bust much, much worse to AV10-12. And have far, far fewer options.

I maintain DAs compare reasonably to *naked CSMs*.

DA have assault 2, and can get either counter attack or overwatch at bs 2, meaning that at 18+ CSM have 1x(4/6)(4/6)(1/2) compared to 2x(4/6)(2/6)(2/6) armour and 2x(4/6)(1/6) rend chance each. I'd actually say that the only range CSM win is at 6" because DA can't get out of rapid fire range. but in a cover versus cover (4+) I'd give it to the marines as well. Melee however depending on overwatch could go either way.

DAs can't get out of rapid fire if they are within 12", and even then its a d6, so they can't guarantee it unless they are 17" away, not 6".

10v10, if the CSM assault - they lose 2 to overwatch, then half a guy to CC, then kill 2-3 guys. Win combat by 2+, then fight next round about 7.5 to 7.5. And dominate at 3-1 when the numbers are equal.