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Hey guys,
I am planning on bringing some CSM allies to my ork forces to help me deal with armour. I don't have the dex currently but I've been doing a load of internet digging and I would like to know your opinions;

Barebones/initial idea;
5 plaguemarines - 2x plasma, in a razorback (now does the razorback have any firing points? or are those sacrificed for the guns? aka should I down grade to a rhino?)
5 raptors - 2x Melta, MoN, Sarge with Powerfist/lightning claw?
1 Sorc - Jetpack, MoN, powerfist/lightning claw?

Idea 2;
Black legion supplement;
8x Chosen - 4x Melta, MoN, Dreadclaw (Idea being now they are Obsec, so the claw is now also Objsec right? DS in on an objective, unload chosen with lord and make short work of some armour)
1x Lord - Termi armour, MoN + some CC loadout.

Idea 3;
Nurgle Winged DP - Armour, Black mace, ML3
5x Plaguemarines - 2x plasma in rhino or razorback again.


Overall I thought nurgle would be the most effective mark for my CSM allies, as it gives me what my orks lack, high T, 3+ units that can sit on an objective and hold it, opening up armour for my boyz to get in and munch. As generally I find my issue is that turn 2 im in the enemy deployment zone, but I still need to open armour, which I can do with my Nobz and their PKs, but generally that results in my units standing there in the open on his turn ready to eat templates or volume of fire. So if I can use the CSM to open up armour in the shooting phase then my orks can get the charge in on the assault phase.

Any thoughts? Other Marks or units welcome, I just felt khorne is too close to what my boyz already do which is chop face. While tzeentch saves are a bit meh and slaneesh is again just another fast element in an already rushy style force.

Chaos Space Marines don't have Razorbacks, so that should narrow that down a bit for you.

Otherwise, option 1 is probably going to be your best bet, but then you have to rely on reserve rolls, which could screw you over. The Dreadclaw wouldn't be a bad option either, but you have to go through Forgeworld for that.

If your problem is dealing with armor, something like:

Nurgle Lord on Bike w/ Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Blight Grenades: 175
5 Nurgle Spawn: 180

5 Havocs w/ Lascannons: 155



Autocannons on the Havocs would work well, and be a lot cheaper, but if you're playing Orks already you might as well take Lootaz.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
If your problem is dealing with armor, something like:

Nurgle Lord on Bike w/ Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Sigil, Blight Grenades: 175
5 Nurgle Spawn: 180

5 Havocs w/ Lascannons: 155



Autocannons on the Havocs would work well, and be a lot cheaper, but if you're playing Orks already you might as well take Lootaz.

He'd still need to bring troops, so it'd be an even bigger tax. I'd drop the spawn and stick with the Plague Marines, but definitely consider the havocs.

The slaanesh icon gives you feel no pain though which is also nice, and if your going to stand still you can benefit from salvo, so that might be an option too. Also the blast master is S8 so it could be used on a tank in a pinch too.

As for dedicated anti tank you might want to consider laser destroyer rapiers, although that would mean forgeworld. But they can sit on an objective with T7 so they kinda do double duty. Outside of FW your best bet would probably still be havocs or oblits, though a trilas predator is fairly cheap too.

AS for BL chosen?..Yea, the dreadclaw becomes ObSec and does amaaaazing things in armies like this that can't move as fast. But unlike the loyalist pods, it scatters, so be wary of that.

Lately I've been allying orks to my CSM but the principle is the same. CSM take cultists, Daemon Prince or Sorcerer, spawn and Oblits, Orks take grots, a painboy, and Lootaz.

Lootaz take care of the light AV and flyers, Oblits take on the heavy AV.

Obliterators? A couple meltas here and there.

But generally orks are better at anti-tank than CSM

ahh thank you guys, some interesting points

The predator, does it have firing points? or are those removed for the triple lascannons? As If I give the plaguemarines a predator for transport (can the predator even carry troops?), it would be useful if they could shoot out of it.

I was assuming i'd potentially start the raptors on the board turn 1. But that may be wishful thinking i'll be in a position turn 2 to get melta off. With DS being a gamble and at best arriving turn 2, I think your right, it seems rather risky

Havocs is a great idea, I hadn't really considered them. Plus I can simply stick them nice and high in a building somewhere and let them go to work. As they start on board I am also getting the benefit of being able to hopefully pop something before my orks charge. As I do LOVE the idea of nurgle bikeLord and spawns (think crazy nurgle Ork spawns with various ork mutations!), but once again its another element of CC tank busting, so by thins point I will have to have already declared all my charges. So no chance of chopping the squishy meatbags inside their tin cans

As for the dreadclaw, hmm I am right in thinking it turns up T1 right? or is it a 50% turn 1? I might consider chosen with plasma instead then, DS in on an objective that's in a building or something and allow them to dish out plasma all over. Not making super use of their 3+, but atleast they wont simply run away Turn 2 when a gust of wind comes their way. (looking at me lootaz!). Although saying that the dreadclaw comes in hover mode, so I can move it, which for a turn 2 disembark and melta could be really powerful. I planned mainly to use the dreadclaw as a "anvil", similar to how I use my necrons when I bring them as allies. In general depending on how they deploy I will put all my orks in vehicles on one flank. I rush up that flank and as expected they normally move a little into the corner or away (if they are a shooty list ofc). At this point i'd drop in the dreadclaw and unload so that its basically acting as a barrier, meaning the CSM need to be assaulted, which leaves my boyz plenty of time to get into combat next turn

I'd be converting an Orky dreadclaw too, so hopefully wouldn't be as big as a forgeworld hit to the wallet.

If you like plasma/melta squads, take a look at crymson slaughter chosen. For 10 points they can get preferred enemy while the champ is still alive. Increases your damage output and protects against overheats.

 koooaei wrote:
If you like plasma/melta squads, take a look at crymson slaughter chosen. For 10 points they can get preferred enemy while the champ is still alive. Increases your damage output and protects against overheats.

ooo, that could be brutal!
I could then take a Sorc give him the balestar of mannon. Giving him Divination, Roll for Perfect timing and I have a unit with re-rolls and ignores cover. Possessed for troops could be loads of fun too! Possessed Orks?!
Is their a limit of relics on characters in the supplement? Thinking daemonheart on another IC with Prophet of the voices for a 2+/5+ IWND beatstick, who runs about with a unit of possessed.

Should possessed be put in a vehicle? If they roll beast I suppose they cant anyway? But bring a rhino incase not?
EDIT: They roll each turn if I read correctly?
How should they be fielded played? They seem quite costly, So if taken alongside chosen that's going to be a heavy points hit. Maybe i'd fair better with cultists as troops, cultist grots??? Then some chosen and a lord.

No limits on artifacts.

Don't want to spoil the fun but you'll be disappointed with how possessed perform. they look cool, though. Regular marines are generally better than possessed point-to-point.

The dreadclaw has the 50 % T1 thing going on, so if you want two you'd need to take 3.....or the kharybdis which doesn't mishap-strike but it costs an arm and a leg . It would let you put in 20 marines though (one unit only). You can deepstrike anywhere then flat out as a fast skimmer to where you want to be, and then you could still get out and assault, being a an assault vehicle and all.

Predators cannot carry troops.

koooaei wrote:No limits on artifacts.

Don't want to spoil the fun but you'll be disappointed with how possessed perform. they look cool, though. Regular marines are generally better than possessed point-to-point.

MEANIE PANTS! Spoiling my Orky goodness!
Its ok, realised I have quite a few choppa boyz, and while modelling cool possessed that can count as 'ard boyz with choppas, they really shouldn't be my priority at the moment. I need some more shoota boyz. Some 'ard boyz with shootas could make some cool count-as marines. So potentially I could bring some marines. Half the reason I chose nurgle was purely for how easy it is to convert, I could literally slap some chaos shoulder pads, armour plates and bolters onto boyz, get a little GS magic going and you'd have suitably nurgled 3+ Boyz.

In the supplements I suppose the whole Chaos lord with a mark unlocks cult Elites as troops doesn't apply? Aka, I can't run Crimson slaughter with plague marines as troops?

Roknar wrote:The dreadclaw has the 50 % T1 thing going on, so if you want two you'd need to take 3.....or the kharybdis which doesn't mishap-strike but it costs an arm and a leg . It would let you put in 20 marines though (one unit only). You can deepstrike anywhere then flat out as a fast skimmer to where you want to be, and then you could still get out and assault, being a an assault vehicle and all.

Predators cannot carry troops.

Ok, so predator is off the list
But looking at that kharybdis! Sweet jesus, it carrys some seriously cool rules. Blast attack and the independent missile launchers. Although at 260 pts it is a hefty price tag. It arrives turn 1 as 50% rounded up is 1. So I could use it so aggressively! Having compared that with the dreadclaw, I can't find it, but I assume the dreadclaw does have the turn 1 arrival? it has the "drop pod" rules, but I don't have access to those. I think the kharybdis is too much overkill. I wouldn't want a unit that large I don't think. I'm also in reality not short of Str6 weaponry as an ork player, im more in need of reliable AT. Hmm would be so cool to model but don't think it would be practical in reality.

So I'm thinking then; - Crimson Slaughter
Dreadclaw
7 chosen - with 4x plasma, MoN, Aschamp - Combiplasma, Lightningclaw + PE
Some cultists for holding some backfield objectives and mandatory troops.

Then some flavour of HQ, but im really not sure. What do you guys reckon is a suitable HQ?

Sorc - to go for Divination with the relic? so I can get PT and thus ignores cover on my plasma.

Daemon Prince? - But with Crimson S, im missing the black mace

Chaos lord? - give him daemonheart stick him with chosen and play them more aggressively?

Supplements still unlock elites as troops. But that only happens if that chaos lord is in your primary detachment, so that's not likely to happen in your case.

The kharybdis is boss lol. I really want to like the rules, as I LOVE the model, but I can't get myself to buy one. It's really not that good at all. The claw has the same rules, minus the guns, ram and guidance. But less than half the price and can be ObSec so that's ok.

May as well pay the extra points for chosen with preferred enemy if your going crimson slaughter.

As for HQ, if your going nurgle...this is expensive, but it make for one tough s.o.b. . You could take a nurgle sorc with divination relic (optional but nice for what you want to do with the unit) and daemonheart along with a palanquin of nurgle.

Nurgle disclipline has nova, large blasts and could make your S6 guns ID for T4 multi wound models so that's not bad either. and you get a sorcerer with T5 4 wounds and IWND. Which should help with the tying up part.

Another thing you can do now with 7th as far as I can see, is mix crimson slaughter and csm and Black legion in the same CAD since their all the same faction, but something just feels wrong about that. Just feels like I'm missing something.

CSM ranged antitank is much better with Forge World.

The new Vindicator Tank Destroyer or possibly 2-3 Rapier Lasers is about as good as it gets. The new Vindicator is cheaper points and cash than the Rapiers, so gets my vote.

The Sicaran with Lascannon sponsons is also really effective and looks fantastic.

Without Forge World, then Mark of Nurgle Obliterators and Nurgle Bikers with meltaguns & bombs on the sarg are both pretty good. Havocs are OK, but I prefer the other alternatives.

Roknar wrote:Supplements still unlock elites as troops. But that only happens if that chaos lord is in your primary detachment, so that's not likely to happen in your case.

The kharybdis is boss lol. I really want to like the rules, as I LOVE the model, but I can't get myself to buy one. It's really not that good at all. The claw has the same rules, minus the guns, ram and guidance. But less than half the price and can be ObSec so that's ok.
May as well pay the extra points for chosen with preferred enemy if your going crimson slaughter.

As for HQ, if your going nurgle...this is expensive, but it make for one tough s.o.b. . You could take a nurgle sorc with divination relic (optional but nice for what you want to do with the unit) and daemonheart along with a palanquin of nurgle.
Nurgle disclipline has nova, large blasts and could make your S6 guns ID for T4 multi wound models so that's not bad either. and you get a sorcerer with T5 4 wounds and IWND. Which should help with the tying up part.
Another thing you can do now with 7th as far as I can see, is mix crimson slaughter and csm and Black legion in the same CAD since their all the same faction, but something just feels wrong about that. Just feels like I'm missing something.

Yeh the extra rules are "cool" if not particularly great, and like you said, the price tag just makes it an all or nothing thing, you really need to make serious use of the 20 model cap. for it to be worthwhile imo. As for the nurgle Sorc on pala that could be really cool , would be great to model as well. Although having looked at some stuff, what do you guys reckon to cypher? the DA dude? he seems nasty, he'd give them shrouded I believe, not to mention another plasma. But barring him I think a nurgle sorc with Div could be great fun I can always drop the sorc's points cost as I see fit.

I know what your saying about factions; as Orks have a couple supplements like IA8 that can be seen that way, but I prefer not to play that way where I can, as like you said, you somewhere feel like your doing something slightly off

ChaosDog wrote:CSM ranged antitank is much better with Forge World.

The new Vindicator Tank Destroyer or possibly 2-3 Rapier Lasers is about as good as it gets. The new Vindicator is cheaper points and cash than the Rapiers, so gets my vote.

The Sicaran with Lascannon sponsons is also really effective and looks fantastic.

Without Forge World, then Mark of Nurgle Obliterators and Nurgle Bikers with meltaguns & bombs on the sarg are both pretty good. Havocs are OK, but I prefer the other alternatives.

those laser rapier thingys look awesome, where can I find the chaos rules for them? I can only find the SM version?? Or are they under a separate entry on FW for chaos?
Also, just looked at that tank destroyer... OUCH! 3 shot when stationary for 130 pts?! TL, AP2 ordanance. Well that's melting something every turn for sure!

Has anyone had issues running them? aka do people approve? I know they are approved for 40k, but when im sat there melting his army away i'd hate to be TFG.
I think for now, I am going to convert up some of those rapier artilleries, as they will be all nurglfied and can count as Grot tanks when running pure orks

Not sure if the fallen angels can be crimson slaughter, but I don't have the dataslate so I dunno. They would be cheaper than nurgle chosen, but you'd need to get into cover for them to get any use out of that shrouded bonus and it wouldn't help in melee, unlike the mark. Of course if you manage to move them into a ruin then you can enjoy a 2+ save. Which might be doable if you drop the claw and stick with the infiltrate, but of course that would be less flexible than the claw, since you can drop the claw anywhere you want. Could use both I guess, but the claw doesn't really do much for you in this scenario, other than to deliver them turn one.

The rapiers are pretty much identical to the loyalist ones, except without ATSKNF and chapter tactics, but in return they get more weapon options. In addition to the loyalist weapons yo can use the same guns the forgefiend has, but on BS4 now. And a conversion beamer. Oh and when it blows up good, you can summon daemons without scattering, but that'll rarely be useful.

I doubt you'd face any more problems with the vindicator than any other FW kit, and if you do, It's only a tiny bit cheaper than laser destroyer rapiers (although they also have worse range) so you could always use those instead

No they wouldn't be crimson slaughter, they'd lose PE, but gain shrouded, infiltrate and all of cyphers cheese Just could have been an option.

Well i've decided.
7x Chosen MoN, 4 plasma, champ with combi-plasma and claw, PE
UnMarked Sorc - ML3, balestar, daemonheart (unmarked so I dont have to roll on nurgle table, rolling all powers on divination)
Cultist troop tax

Mayhem pack! - All multimelta, 1 fist, 2 scourge, flamers.

So Turn 1 I deepstrike the plasma dudes along with the sorc. They go to town and start opening boxes. Then T2/3 my mayhem pack arrives and well.... goes on a rampage.

Really looking forward to this now. As the hellbrutes can count towards my walker wall when playing pure orks. Plus I can't wait to nurgle them up enormous grotbrutes?!
Can brutes take marks?

nope...not even in a daemonkin army -_-.
Only the FW dreads can. Of which the decimator and blood slaughterer can deepstrike stock. The slauthterer might be intersting with impaler...it could potentially deepstrike T2 and drag a vehicle into it and thus assault it the turn it deepstrikes.

Not saying that either is better, but they can deepstrike without having to get 3, unless that's fine with you. And a nurgle decimator is pretty hard to take out completely. Though I've never actually fielded one.

Oh Roknar! what are you doing to me?!?!
Every timeI think I have this down you throw more goodies at me!

Hmm.
What I need to know now is sizes. Can anyone help here?

Decimator = Gorkanaut
Hellbrute = Deffdread
Blood slaughterer? = slightly larger than a hellbrute?

How big do Deamon princes usually get?
I think I should probably go ask this in P&M

blood slaughterer is kinda between a hellbrute and a defiler,...

With Captyn_Bobs and this picture you should be able to get the sizes down.

GW Demon princes are just barely larger than a dread.


Took a shot of some of my own models for further reference. The grumpy cat box is a deck box for you average MTG cards or whatever.



have fun deciding

If you want cheap antitank and nothing more go with Termicide on elites, Raptorcide on fast and 1-3 oblies on heavy.

You won't need any more anti-tank, you would be however at the mercy of reserve and scatter rolls.

10man cultist troop and a barebones sorcerer or lord to sit with them

Thanks for all the help guys Especially Rok for all the photos, those are perfect, I always aim to keep my models close to the right size, although that can be difficult when trying to make them multi-purpose across 2 different armies.

As of Thursday next week all my uni work is done for the year and I can't wait to get some hellbrutes underway!

This is a conversion for a megadread I started before the latest Ork codex, I think it will now have to be a gorkanaut/decimator looking potentially a little big, but hey ho, there aint exactly much scenary that would hide a decimator anyway As for loadout, general advice seems to be; seigeclaw + stormlaser. However with orks I certainly don't lack mid str, so am thinking the butcher cannon? str 8, heavy 4, yeh its only AP4, but I think the higher str will be much more useful for when I DS in and can see some nice rear armour. Also helps with doubling out anything T4, a few Nid players in my area.

MoN Obliterators, Deep striking at rear armor, pumping the tank in the back with S6 Heavy4 Rending Assault cannon shots? Or if you happen to arrive close, you can do the same with multimeltas.

That mega dread is looking nice, and maybe a little bit big, but that's ok since you can clearly see what chassis it was looted from and it makes sense. I wouldn't look out of place at all.

As for the storm lasers? Yea, I'd go for the butcher cannons, maybe even dual butcher cannons if it wasn't so expensive, since they're only bs3, but that's kinda offset by the fact that it can come back from the dead lol. And the siege claws can do a lot of damage too potentially.

Yeh I think I need 1 siege claw, Not only because when running as a gorka it has a CC weapon, but also because I like the idea of smashing open a transport while simultaneously flaming the contents...

I mean, shooting phase I let out some heavy flamer templates all over some OT transports, assault phase I smash open that transport while further incinerating the contents.... flames flames, now if only I could somehow flame in the movement phase too!.....

Dual butcher could be an option, but if I went that way, id probably go dual conversion beamer, stick it in the corner of the map and beam things! but were goddamn chaosy orks! SMASHFACE is the only way! shooting is just something to kill time on da slog!

That sounds about right


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you were to go dual conversion beamer you would be much better of with the conversion rapiers anyway.

Only one suggestion for Nurgle Bikes? That's one of CSM's best units.

Outflank w/ 12" move, 2 meltas and a combi-melta in every squad of 3, T6 to weather return fire...what's not to love?

lustigjh wrote:
Only one suggestion for Nurgle Bikes? That's one of CSM's best units.

Outflank w/ 12" move, 2 meltas and a combi-melta in every squad of 3, T6 to weather return fire...what's not to love?

buying a special character and relying on outflank+reserves