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Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 the_kraken wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
If I want a challenge, I want it to come from my opponent's skill, not that he has a naturally stronger army.


I feel like just because the Eldar are OP, someone who isn't used to them wouldn't do all that well with them for the first little while.

A beginner would do better with Eldar than a CSM army.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, why are they taking junky, overpriced AV12 Hellhounds, when they should be taking awesome, cheaper AV14 Eradicators
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Huh? S6 doesn't do jack to AV12.


At least try.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 DanielBeaver wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
Just like all those closet White Scars fans out there.
"What? I always wanted White Scars. The fact that their lists are amazing has nothing to do with it at all. Yup. Nothing at all. Yessir."

I can't wait until the 7th ed SM codex drops and Salamanders become the next OP thing

Back to 5th already?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_kraken wrote:
I wish Wraithknights weren't so expensive.

troll spotted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/30 18:29:16


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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Utah

 Xenomancers wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_kraken wrote:
I wish Wraithknights weren't so expensive.

troll spotted


Not even close. I already pay $70 - $80 for Riptides and that is expensive.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 the_kraken wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_kraken wrote:
I wish Wraithknights weren't so expensive.

troll spotted


Not even close. I already pay $70 - $80 for Riptides and that is expensive.

They thought you were talking point-wise. LOL!
Because it sure isn't over costed with points.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Utah

 MWHistorian wrote:
 the_kraken wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_kraken wrote:
I wish Wraithknights weren't so expensive.

troll spotted


Not even close. I already pay $70 - $80 for Riptides and that is expensive.

They thought you were talking point-wise. LOL!
Because it sure isn't over costed with points.


That makes a lot more sense.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've played Tyranids without Flyrants, Orks without tons of wagons, and Chaos Space Marines with no Daemon Princes. After 4 editions of playing with the bottom of the barrel, I'm finally starting up an army and having it be one of the best ones out there. I deserve this codex! Flee before me!

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Dark Azrael wrote:

you assume that everyone playing Eldar is going to be an uber competitive WAAC player. They aren't.
I'm assuming most will be taking the optimal options in most instances which will be the Scatterlaser, WAAC or not, and few will be actively ripping their scatterlasers off existing platforms, particularly again, as they're usually the most optimal generalist choice.

Yes scatter lasers are good. But they are one more shot than a Shuriken cannon, and AP6 which is weak. I'd rather have the Bladestorm factor thank you. Especially when facing things tougher than IG.
The Scatterlaser is actually nearly as good against heavy infantry as the Shuriken Cannon is. Against a MEQ unit, a Shuriken Cannon is averaging 0.777 wounds, a Scatterlaser is averaging 0.74, only a ~5.1% advantage in average wounds dealt.

Meanwhile the Scatterlaser has 50% greater range, and if any sort of cover or invul is involved (even 6+) then the Scatterlaser takes the lead average kill output and is much more effective against vehicles.

Ironically it's Guardsmen are actually a unit where the Shuriken Cannon's performance is nearly at its best over a Scatterlaser (largely due to AP5). It's about 12.6% better, but again, if any sort of of cover or invul comes into play, even 6+, then the Scatterlaser gains the upper hand again, and still has that range advantage.

The Shuriken Cannon only has a consistently clear advantage over the Scatterlaser against 2+sv foes, the Shuriken cannon has an initial advantage, but again, cover and invuls erode that, being on parity if there's a 4+cover/invul, and the scatterlaser being clearly better if there's a 3+ cover/invul.

Versatile?? you mean they fire one more shot right, that makes them versatile.
One more shot and greater range over a cannon. Yes, that really does make a huge difference.

An EML is versatile as it can do different things. A scatter laser isn't.
An EML is significantly more expensive however, isn't as good at engaging infantry (unless it's managing a hit on super clumped up 4+sv infantry in the open), is actually only very marginally better at AA, and is worse at engaging light vehicles. The EML's only advantage is against heavier vehicles the Scatterlaser cannot hurt. For the price on most platforms, the Scatterlaser is the optimal choice, especially if the platform has other weapons like shuriken catapults or cannons that won't jive as well with the EML.

Did you not read my 'unless the farseer is on a jetbike' disclaimer?
I guess I did. That said, even on foot, you're taking 6" off of that, that'll still get you well into an opponent's deployment zone unless they're sitting ass-to-board-edge most of the time.

Yep but you can't put Wraithguard in a Falcon as they are bulky, and Falcons can only carry five man squads.
You're right, you can't put WG in there, but going back to the earlier comment that referenced the Falcons in the first place, you certainly very much can put Fire Dragons in them, which can now sport BS5 and "AP0", which effectively add up to double their average infliction of Explodes results against vehicles (even worse against open topped vehicles) and make it so that even a 5 man squad will almost never fail to kill even an AV14 3HP tank through either HP infliction or Exploding. Nobody thought they were weak before at all in their role or needed to be any better, but they at least had a chance to fail to kill something, which is now reduced to statistical insignificance unless the target vehicle is sporting a strong cover save.

Dark Azrael wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: WG are fearless. Deepstriking behind a wave serpent and blowing it up in one round (particularly through a Jink save) is also a far less reliable and far more variable prospect than the WG's and their accompanying Wave Serpent are in and of themselves, particularly with an army like IG.
so you use something that ignores cover...flamer maybe? Or maybe use a psychic power or if you are smart enough to use the Legion of the Damned you don't need to worry as you ignore cover anyway with flaming projectiles
Not seeing how much Flamers are going to do against Wave Serpents or Wraithguard. A DS'ing unit is likely to be too far to receive an Order/Psychic Power in most instances. Having to ally in another army is a poor solution (for many reasons), especially given that their arrival is still likely to be variable and even if they've got weapons that can hurt a WS, they won't have many and the WS can reduce pen's to glances on a 2+ (and they likely won't have the volume of fire necessary to inflict enough HP loss), and they certainly won't tear through WG with their shooting.

Where there is a will there is a way.
Sure...ok, but not always a particularly good, reliable, or consistently effective way. That's the problem.

Real soldiers use tactics. They have a plan. So come up with a plan for beating Eldar.
You missed my point about this not being real soldiery, but a game, and that it must be treated like a game.

Likewise, tactics do not overcome everything. One must have the equipment, support, and numbers to put them into practice, which in many cases simply is not present, or is not sufficiently present to work consistently. There's nothing new about *fighting* the new Eldar, what worked before will still work, it just won't work as well and the Eldar simply work better. That's the fundamental problem.

Dark Azrael wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:Likewise, IG armies haven't ever truly functioned well on an attritional basis. Many, if not most, IG units aren't actually particularly cheap, especially next to contemporary units in other armies, and the super cheap units that often are viewed as expendable really aren't all *that* cheap (or particularly useful), at least not since 5th edition.

If you put enough troops on the ground the Eldar rarely have enough shots to deal with all of them, and this will be even tougher now there is no laser lock to twin link everything.
Again, Laserlock only mattered if you were taking something other than multiple scatterlasers anyway, which already do the job plenty well themselves. With the way Jetbikes work now, enhanced CC units, and still have scatterlaser/shurikencannons everywhere, Eldar will have no trouble with IG infantry. They certainly haven't had trouble with IG infantry horde armies for the last two years (nobody has, and there's a reason for that, troop heavy IG is not a very good army), and the simple loss of Laserlock isn't going to change that.

So if you have two farseers you can guide two units. Almost everyone can take prescience which does exactly the same bar the proximity of the psyker to the unit.
Except Prescience is also a Warp Charge 2 power, Guide is Warp Charge 1, with, as noted, half the range, and with none of the psyker bonuses Eldar get like Runes of the Farseer. Look at say, an IG Primaris Psyker. They're 50pts to the Farseer's 100pts, but have a worse statline, are ML1 instead of ML3, don't get a Ghosthelm, don't get Runes of the Farseer, no potential Invisibility access, and even if they could be upgraded to ML3 (at the customary price of 25pts per level) they wouldn't be anything near the power or capability of the Farseer (nor have that incredibly useful Jetbike option). Eldar have a *far* easier time getting Guide off where they want it and when they want it than most opponents, especially IG, will getting off Prescience.

Well with laser lock using another weapon was optimal use of the scatter laser. Now not so much.
In some instances, sure. In others, not so much (laser-locking Bright lances for AV13/14 tank hunting was never a better prospect than just taking two Bright Lances in the first place), but again, double-scatter laser was always popular in and of itself, I've got 9 such equipped War Walkers myself, and it's still the most common configuration I see. Yes, some configurations against some targets became less capable, but not all, and certainly not the anti-horde or anti-heavy armor builds.


the key to that phrase is 'guided'. But not eveything can be guided.
Yes, but that was only needed to kill the two tanks in one turn, those jetbikes are still outshooting anything IG have point for point and are still more than capable of putting an insane amount of hurt on AV12 tanks without Guide.


If I'm facing an Eldar force one of my top priorities is kill the Farseer(s) ASAP. Followed by down the Wave Serpents. Turn them into footdar. And they will die.
Ideally yes. But given that the Farseers are usually well protected, and the Serpents can be astoundingly resilient (and often only need to last a turn or two anyway), it's far easier said than done.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Yarium wrote:
Flee before me!

Oh, they will. Just not in the way you're hoping.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 MWHistorian wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
Flee before me!

Oh, they will. Just not in the way you're hoping.


Lol, it's all good. My two most regular opponents are another Eldar player (Eldar since 3rd) and a Necron player with a Decurion. I also don't play on fielding any ditry-d. That line was more or less a reference to the Misfire! webcomic; http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/bolsmisfire34.png

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The scatterlaser is one of the most abusive heavy weapons in the game with its combination of range, ROF, and Str. There is actually no comparison in my mind to the shuriken cannon. If you think rend is a thing, just shoot more S6 at it and it will die.
   
Made in th
Fresh-Faced New User




Vaktathil wrote:
you assume that everyone playing Eldar is going to be an uber competitive WAAC player. They aren't.
I'm assuming most will be taking the optimal options in most instances which will be the Scatterlaser, WAAC or not, and few will be actively ripping their scatterlasers off existing platforms, particularly again, as they're usually the most optimal generalist choice.
The cost will eventually become prohibitive. And I know that I won't be doing that.

Yes scatter lasers are good. But they are one more shot than a Shuriken cannon, and AP6 which is weak. I'd rather have the Bladestorm factor thank you. Especially when facing things tougher than IG.
Vaktathi wrote: The Scatterlaser is actually nearly as good against heavy infantry as the Shuriken Cannon is. Against a MEQ unit, a Shuriken Cannon is averaging 0.777 wounds, a Scatterlaser is averaging 0.74, only a ~5.1% advantage in average wounds dealt.
So the shuriken cannon is better. Range shouldn't even be a factor for jetbikes with the distance they can cover, especially on a 48 inch board.

Vaktathil wrote:Meanwhile the Scatterlaser has 50% greater range, and if any sort of cover or invul is involved (even 6+) then the Scatterlaser takes the lead average kill output and is much more effective against vehicles.
so if we ignore range, then its the single shot that makes it better in your opinion?

Vaktathil wrote:Ironically it's Guardsmen are actually a unit where the Shuriken Cannon's performance is nearly at its best over a Scatterlaser (largely due to AP5). It's about 12.6% better, but again, if any sort of of cover or invul comes into play, even 6+, then the Scatterlaser gains the upper hand again, and still has that range advantage.
Again with the single shot difference.

Vaktathil wrote:The Shuriken Cannon only has a consistently clear advantage over the Scatterlaser against 2+sv foes, the Shuriken cannon has an initial advantage, but again, cover and invuls erode that, being on parity if there's a 4+cover/invul, and the scatterlaser being clearly better if there's a 3+ cover/invul.
and again.

Versatile?? you mean they fire one more shot right, that makes them versatile.
One more shot and greater range over a cannon. Yes, that really does make a huge difference.

An EML is versatile as it can do different things. A scatter laser isn't.
Vaktathil wrote:An EML is significantly more expensive however, isn't as good at engaging infantry (unless it's managing a hit on super clumped up 4+sv infantry in the open), is actually only very marginally better at AA, and is worse at engaging light vehicles. The EML's only advantage is against heavier vehicles the Scatterlaser cannot hurt. For the price on most platforms, the Scatterlaser is the optimal choice, especially if the platform has other weapons like shuriken catapults or cannons that won't jive as well with the EML.
Skyfire play into this at all? blast template? Blast templates always hit something. Scatter lasers don't.

Did you not read my 'unless the farseer is on a jetbike' disclaimer?
Vaktathil wrote: I guess I did. That said, even on foot, you're taking 6" off of that, that'll still get you well into an opponent's deployment zone unless they're sitting ass-to-board-edge most of the time.
same goes for Shuriken cannons.

Yep but you can't put Wraithguard in a Falcon as they are bulky, and Falcons can only carry five man squads.
Vaktathil wrote: You're right, you can't put WG in there, but going back to the earlier comment that referenced the Falcons in the first place, you certainly very much can put Fire Dragons in them, which can now sport BS5 and "AP0", which effectively add up to double their average infliction of Explodes results against vehicles (even worse against open topped vehicles) and make it so that even a 5 man squad will almost never fail to kill even an AV14 3HP tank through either HP infliction or Exploding. Nobody thought they were weak before at all in their role or needed to be any better, but they at least had a chance to fail to kill something, which is now reduced to statistical insignificance unless the target vehicle is sporting a strong cover save.
it's 375 for the Falcons, then another 110 for the Fire Dragons (330 total) so that's 705 points for 15 troops and three tanks. All of which will be in CC range. hmmm.

Dark Azrael wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: WG are fearless. Deepstriking behind a wave serpent and blowing it up in one round (particularly through a Jink save) is also a far less reliable and far more variable prospect than the WG's and their accompanying Wave Serpent are in and of themselves, particularly with an army like IG.
so you use something that ignores cover...flamer maybe? Or maybe use a psychic power or if you are smart enough to use the Legion of the Damned you don't need to worry as you ignore cover anyway with flaming projectiles
Vaktathil wrote:Not seeing how much Flamers are going to do against Wave Serpents or Wraithguard. A DS'ing unit is likely to be too far to receive an Order/Psychic Power in most instances. Having to ally in another army is a poor solution (for many reasons), especially given that their arrival is still likely to be variable and even if they've got weapons that can hurt a WS, they won't have many and the WS can reduce pen's to glances on a 2+ (and they likely won't have the volume of fire necessary to inflict enough HP loss), and they certainly won't tear through WG with their shooting.
WS can't use the serpent shield for shots in the back. No jink saves if being shot by Legion of the Damned. That's 16 strg 4 bolter shots with rapid fire, plus heavy/special weapons fire. Flamers are str 4 right? they can glance a wave serpent with no jink save.

Where there is a will there is a way.
Vaktathil wrote:Sure...ok, but not always a particularly good, reliable, or consistently effective way. That's the problem.
you sound very defeatist.

Vaktathil wrote:You missed my point about this not being real soldiery, but a game, and that it must be treated like a game.

Likewise, tactics do not overcome everything. One must have the equipment, support, and numbers to put them into practice, which in many cases simply is not present, or is not sufficiently present to work consistently. There's nothing new about *fighting* the new Eldar, what worked before will still work, it just won't work as well and the Eldar simply work better. That's the fundamental problem.
Some armies are better than others. You want parity? Play chess. The use of dice ensure that theres no such things as consistency or reliability.

Vaktathi wrote:Likewise, IG armies haven't ever truly functioned well on an attritional basis. Many, if not most, IG units aren't actually particularly cheap, especially next to contemporary units in other armies, and the super cheap units that often are viewed as expendable really aren't all *that* cheap (or particularly useful), at least not since 5th edition.
.......


Vaktathil wrote:Again, Laserlock only mattered if you were taking something other than multiple scatterlasers anyway, which already do the job plenty well themselves. With the way Jetbikes work now, enhanced CC units, and still have scatterlaser/shurikencannons everywhere, Eldar will have no trouble with IG infantry. They certainly haven't had trouble with IG infantry horde armies for the last two years (nobody has, and there's a reason for that, troop heavy IG is not a very good army), and the simple loss of Laserlock isn't going to change that.
Infantry are the meat shields/tarpits. its the mech that do the damage.

Vaktathil wrote:Except Prescience is also a Warp Charge 2 power, Guide is Warp Charge 1, with, as noted, half the range, and with none of the psyker bonuses Eldar get like Runes of the Farseer. Look at say, an IG Primaris Psyker. They're 50pts to the Farseer's 100pts, but have a worse statline, are ML1 instead of ML3, don't get a Ghosthelm, don't get Runes of the Farseer, no potential Invisibility access, and even if they could be upgraded to ML3 (at the customary price of 25pts per level) they wouldn't be anything near the power or capability of the Farseer (nor have that incredibly useful Jetbike option). Eldar have a *far* easier time getting Guide off where they want it and when they want it than most opponents, especially IG, will getting off Prescience.
And nearly all the runes of fate are two warp charges now except guide. IG can take two psykers for the price of one. Warlocks only get one psychic power(two with psychic discipline) per three models.

Vaktathil wrote:In some instances, sure. In others, not so much (laser-locking Bright lances for AV13/14 tank hunting was never a better prospect than just taking two Bright Lances in the first place), but again, double-scatter laser was always popular in and of itself, I've got 9 such equipped War Walkers myself, and it's still the most common configuration I see. Yes, some configurations against some targets became less capable, but not all, and certainly not the anti-horde or anti-heavy armor builds.


Vaktathil wrote:Yes, but that was only needed to kill the two tanks in one turn, those jetbikes are still outshooting anything IG have point for point and are still more than capable of putting an insane amount of hurt on AV12 tanks without Guide.
so use meat shields. use scenery. use barrage. there is always a counter move.

Vaktathil wrote:Ideally yes. But given that the Farseers are usually well protected, and the Serpents can be astoundingly resilient (and often only need to last a turn or two anyway), it's far easier said than done.
Yes Farseers can be tricksy, but at least they don't have mantle of the laughing god anymore. If you get behind Wave Serpents they go down. If there is enough scenery they get bogged down as well.


This was a quick post. I'll enlarge upon it later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/01 04:51:39


 
   
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Azrael, I'm too tired to follow that... abomination of a post.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Quickjager wrote:
Azrael, I'm too tired to follow that... abomination of a post.


yeah i know. but i was/am in a rush. sorry.
   
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On moon miranda.

Dark Azrael wrote:
The cost will eventually become prohibitive. And I know that I won't be doing that.
The cost of the jetbikes? for some people, sure, not for others, but scatterlasers on other platforms aren't really an issue.

YSo the shuriken cannon is better.
If you want to ignore all the caveats, sure, by a razor thin margin

If even 6+ cover or invuls come into play, or at 24-36", the Scatterlaser is better.

Range shouldn't even be a factor for jetbikes with the distance they can cover, especially on a 48 inch board.
That all depends, being able to sit 36" back and 6" JSJ can keep you out of retaliation range much better than 24" can.

so if we ignore range, then its the single shot that makes it better in your opinion?
Not my opinion, the simple mathematical averages show that to be true.



Again with the single shot difference.
That single shot is increasing firepower by 33% against most targets, and Bladestorm can only overcome that so much, and if cover/invul comes into play then Bladestorm's effectiveness goes out the window.


Versatile?? you mean they fire one more shot right, that makes them versatile.
One more shot and greater range over a cannon. Yes, that really does make a huge difference.


Skyfire play into this at all?
Yes, I noted as much. Skyfire is nice, but firing 4x as many shots largely equalizes that. A Skyfiring EML will hit with 0.66 shots. A Snapfiring Scatterlaser will hit with 0.66 shots. The big thing you're getting out of the EML is S7 over S6 for 3x the upgrade price.

blast template? Blast templates always hit something. Scatter lasers don't.
Unless you're snapfiring, if you miss with every scatterlaser on a BS4 model, your luck is rotten, you've got a 1-in-81 chance of that happening.

You have a *WAY* higher chance of whiffing entirely with small blast template, and they very much can fail to hit something. You roll a 7-12 on 2d6 for scatter, even with BS4 reductions, you've generally missed your original target model, and after that it's all up to however big the unit was and which direction you scatter.


it's 375 for the Falcons, then another 110 for the Fire Dragons (330 total) so that's 705 points for 15 troops and three tanks. All of which will be in CC range. hmmm.
And if we're talking IG, as we were before, then CC's irrelevant in the vast majority of instances.

Dark Azrael wrote:WS can't use the serpent shield for shots in the back. No jink saves if being shot by Legion of the Damned. That's 16 strg 4 bolter shots with rapid fire, plus heavy/special weapons fire. Flamers are str 4 right? they can glance a wave serpent with no jink save.
And that's relying entirely on a 300pt unit to come in when it's possible to land behind a Serpent in a meaningful way, sticking the landing properly, and most of those shots are rolling 6's to do anything.

Can if work? Sure. Not debating that. But it's an extremely expensive and incredibly variable in effectiveness and likely more often than not will not go off correctly. You're also relying on a ~300pt unit to engage a ~120-140pt tank.

you sound very defeatist.
I'm trying to explain the reality of the situation.

I'll avoid getting into the insanity that has resulted from throwing around the label of "defeatist" in this world.

Some armies are better than others. You want parity? Play chess.
Or Firestorm Armada, Dropzone Commander, Infinity...etc. None of these games have anything even remotely near the balance issues 40k has.

Nobody is demanding perfect parity. However, there is a monstrous capability gap here that is out of all proportion with any possible excuse other than incompetence or a new design philosophy that will leave numerous other armies hamstrung and waiting years for updates.

The use of dice ensure that theres no such things as consistency or reliability.
Yes, dice add variability, but we can plot the averages and expected outcomes. The Eldar have a huge advantage in the Dice department given how many rerolls and the sheer number of dice they can get relative to most other armies.

Dark Azrael wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:Likewise, IG armies haven't ever truly functioned well on an attritional basis. Many, if not most, IG units aren't actually particularly cheap, especially next to contemporary units in other armies, and the super cheap units that often are viewed as expendable really aren't all *that* cheap (or particularly useful), at least not since 5th edition.
......
Aside from some infantry HQ and Troops units, there's not a whole lot that's particularly cheap. Hellhounds, Valkyries, Leman Russ tanks, Basilisks, Sentinels, Hydras, etc are roughly the same cost as their counterparts in other armies. Even those that are relatively cheap, on a point for point basis, they're often dramatically inferior to equivalent contemporaries.


Vaktathil wrote:Again, Laserlock only mattered if you were taking something other than multiple scatterlasers anyway, which already do the job plenty well themselves. With the way Jetbikes work now, enhanced CC units, and still have scatterlaser/shurikencannons everywhere, Eldar will have no trouble with IG infantry. They certainly haven't had trouble with IG infantry horde armies for the last two years (nobody has, and there's a reason for that, troop heavy IG is not a very good army), and the simple loss of Laserlock isn't going to change that.
Infantry are the meat shields/tarpits. its the mech that do the damage. Having played IG for four or five editions, infantry are empty points in many instances. Why bother with infantry when for what the infantry cost, you can just take another vehicle? An Armored Sentinel can tarpit many things as well as guardsmen can.

Most basic IG infantry are exceedingly easy to remove and their functionality as meatshields can be very easily bypassed, often with weapons most other armies don't even consider a threat. A couple drop pods and a Rhino pack 3-4 storm bolters between them, and while a MEQ squad won't care, that'll clear like half an IG unit off the table (often opening a gap), and force an LD7/8 fallback test.

Really, it's blob platoons that have any value, there's a reason you don't see platoons that aren't being run as blobs (or any of the other units available to platoons) in like 98% of IG armies anymore.

Dark Azrael wrote:
Vaktathil wrote:Except Prescience is also a Warp Charge 2 power, Guide is Warp Charge 1, with, as noted, half the range, and with none of the psyker bonuses Eldar get like Runes of the Farseer. Look at say, an IG Primaris Psyker. They're 50pts to the Farseer's 100pts, but have a worse statline, are ML1 instead of ML3, don't get a Ghosthelm, don't get Runes of the Farseer, no potential Invisibility access, and even if they could be upgraded to ML3 (at the customary price of 25pts per level) they wouldn't be anything near the power or capability of the Farseer (nor have that incredibly useful Jetbike option). Eldar have a *far* easier time getting Guide off where they want it and when they want it than most opponents, especially IG, will getting off Prescience.
And nearly all the runes of fate are two warp charges now except guide. IG can take two psykers for the price of one.
And a single Farseer will still bring more to the table, more psychic levels, more powers, and better abilities.


so use meat shields. use scenery. use barrage. there is always a counter move.
Yes, that's all usually part of the plan anyway, that's just being a capable player. The Eldar player has access to all these kinds of things too. The issue there is that it effects them less and will often have more brute power to bypass a lot of these things anyway. Far more mobility, more raw firepower, more powerful weapons, better support capabilities, etc.

Vaktathil wrote:Ideally yes. But given that the Farseers are usually well protected, and the Serpents can be astoundingly resilient (and often only need to last a turn or two anyway), it's far easier said than done.
Yes Farseers can be tricksy, but at least they don't have mantle of the laughing god anymore. There is that at least

If you get behind Wave Serpents they go down. If there is enough scenery they get bogged down as well.
Terrain is usually much more the Eldar's friend than their opponents, and have far more mobility to make best use of it. Yes, if you get behind the Wave Serpents, they can be made to go down, but that's often a much more difficult prospect than anything the Eldar have to deal with to successfully engage their targets.


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Utah

 Quickjager wrote:
Azrael, I'm too tired to follow that... abomination of a post.


This.
   
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Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 Vaktathi wrote:

Real soldiers use tactics. They have a plan. So come up with a plan for beating Eldar.


You missed my point about this not being real soldiery, but a game, and that it must be treated like a game.

Likewise, tactics do not overcome everything. One must have the equipment, support, and numbers to put them into practice, which in many cases simply is not present, or is not sufficiently present to work consistently. There's nothing new about *fighting* the new Eldar, what worked before will still work, it just won't work as well and the Eldar simply work better. That's the fundamental problem.


Also, there's that assumption again--that players with powerful armies will not be using these all-powerful Tactics themselves.

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Vaktathi wrote:
Scatterlasers rule! And the Eldar are broken.


But seriously. I value your opinions, not sure I agree with all of them, but I certainly acknowledge them. Good discussion. Thanks.

I just hope I have someone left to play with my Space Elves when I get back from my holiday. I'll have to run a CAD as I don't have the models to run any of the Guardian formations. No Vauls, Warwalkers, and not enough Skyrunners and Windriders. And now i need to buy a Wraithlord of I'm to use my other Wraiths properly. Money, money, money..........

   
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Raleigh, NC

 Brothererekose wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
 SilverDevilfish wrote:

"These aren't the White Scars, they're the Adaptive Snowmen, my own chapter. Why do they keep changing tactics every new codex, well they're called the Adaptive Snowmen for a reason."


You laugh but, I joked that if I ever fielded a vanilla space codex force that I'm just going to paint them black with no chapter markings and use whatever chapter tactics suit me that week.

TWO of out league members have since started doing that.

It's actually kind of funny.
"So what chapter are they from this week and what do the chapter tactics do ?"


Here ya go, the .. (wait for it) DARK KNIGHTS!!!!!



I'd really like to see a Space marine army where each piece of armor is painted like a different one of the major (book) chapters. Head like Blood Angels, torso like Ultramarines, legs like Imperial First, right arm like Space Wolves, and left arm like Imperial Fists. If it was painted well, I think I'd just laugh and play it, no matter what it ended up being.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Accolade wrote:
 Brothererekose wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
 SilverDevilfish wrote:

"These aren't the White Scars, they're the Adaptive Snowmen, my own chapter. Why do they keep changing tactics every new codex, well they're called the Adaptive Snowmen for a reason."


You laugh but, I joked that if I ever fielded a vanilla space codex force that I'm just going to paint them black with no chapter markings and use whatever chapter tactics suit me that week.

TWO of out league members have since started doing that.

It's actually kind of funny.
"So what chapter are they from this week and what do the chapter tactics do ?"


Here ya go, the .. (wait for it) DARK KNIGHTS!!!!!



I'd really like to see a Space marine army where each piece of armor is painted like a different one of the major (book) chapters. Head like Blood Angels, torso like Ultramarines, legs like Imperial First, right arm like Space Wolves, and left arm like Imperial Fists. If it was painted well, I think I'd just laugh and play it, no matter what it ended up being.


Back when I was doing generic Marines, I was starting to do somethng a bit like that, with Red or Black bits for the guys who would double as Death Company or BA Veterans, etc. The push to specialist, army-specific models and $50+ Codices killed that.

   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




 Accolade wrote:


I'd really like to see a Space marine army where each piece of armor is painted like a different one of the major (book) chapters. Head like Blood Angels, torso like Ultramarines, legs like Imperial First, right arm like Space Wolves, and left arm like Imperial Fists. If it was painted well, I think I'd just laugh and play it, no matter what it ended up being.


Dark Angels are saddened to be left out :(
although I suppose you could get 3 colors from 1 chapter through DA (Deathwing, Ravenwing & Greenwing)
   
 
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