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So, I am joining a tournament with this list. Any thoughts?

HQ:
Farseer w/bike + spear 120

Troops
Scatbikes 81
Scatbikes 81

Elites:
Wraithguard 160
w/ Wave Serpent w/SC + SL 125

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 140

At this point I have 43 points left. Which can be spent on a combination of:
Extra bike: 27 points
Extra Wraithguard: 32 points
2x D-Scythes: 20points
Spirit stone(?) for Farseer: 10 points
Exarch Upgrade for Crimson Hunter: 20 points

Tournament forbids LoW, Gargantuan Creatures and Super Heavies. The only thing I know for sure I will meet is Tyranids with 1 flyrant, other more scatbike focused eldar players, and marines with centurions.

I couldn't see anything in the rules about Farseer not being able to use psychic powers after turbo boosting? So to deal with the flyrant I thought I would use guide on crimson hunter (turbo boosting to get in range if needed), and just really hope it arrives on turn 2. With TL Crimson Hunter I don't think I need the exarch upgrade, also I probably have to jink in the following round in most situations anyway, making BS5 useless.

Spirit Stone (I think it's called) is only really needed if I get both Doom and Fortune on farseer, in most situations the farseer has prescience, guide, and a random situational power, and prescience/guide is only 1 point anyway.

Extra bike is nice, 4 more shots in a squad that I will probably guide in most situations.

Extra wraithguard to max wraithguards in a wave serpent would be good. I can fit in either 1 extra WG with a Scyte, or 4 scythes However, I think 1 or 2 scythes is enough as I mostly want them as assault deterrents, and I can guide the wraithcannons making the chance of scoring a 6 against a target with Inv save pretty good the more I have of them. I am worried about spending more points in the unit as it can only shoot 1 thing each round (but scythes can hit multiple targets if they are close), and it will be focus fired from round 1.

A last possibility is dropping the Crimson Hunter in favor of another WG unit. Two WG units with guide and prescience could be good against flyers. In both my last two games my guided WK shot down a flyer on two sixes. (My opponent lost a Stormtalon, + librarian with storm shield + centurions for 600 points from one shot by my WK :X ) It's really easy to kite a unit of WG footslogging without a transport though.

Updated:
HQ:
Farseer w/bike + spear 120

Troops
Scatbikes 81
Scatbikes 81

Elites:
Wraithguard 160
w/ Wave Serpent w/SC + SL 125

Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter 140

At this point I have 43 points left. Which can be spent on a combination of:
Extra bike 27 points + Spirit Stone 15 points = 42points
Extra Wraithguard 32 points + Holo Fields 10 points = 42points
Drop Crimson Hunter and add 6 more bikes + Spirit Stone.

The whole unit of wraithguards must have the same weapons. The Spirit Stone costs 15 points. Psychic Powers are cast in the psychic phase, so the Farseer can absolutely turbo boost in the shooting phase when he pleases. Prescience is Warp Charge 2 since 7th edition. You know the list is nasty, I'd take either the Jetbikes or the Scytheguard but not both.

Suite wrote:
The whole unit of wraithguards must have the same weapons. The Spirit Stone costs 15 points. Psychic Powers are cast in the psychic phase, so the Farseer can absolutely turbo boost in the shooting phase when he pleases. Prescience is Warp Charge 2 since 7th edition. You know the list is nasty, I'd take either the Jetbikes or the Scytheguard but not both.

I don't have the codex with me atm so I might be misremembering things.

Think I am misremembering the name of the Spirit Stone, it's the thing that reduces warp charge cost by one point.

Why does the WG need to take the same weapon, is it something I missed in the wording of the WG unit? In that case then I can't afford the D-Scythes at all.

I thought eldar jetbikes turboboosted in the movement phase and couldn't run/shoot in the shooting phase, my bad.

The list might be nasty, but I will be meeting up to 3 other eldar players, possibly wraithcrons and flyrants.

Spirit Stone of Anath'lan is what you want 15 points. Regarding the WG: It's been the same way in the old codex, no mix and match. Don't know exactly why but it fits the Eldar theme of specialization. The normal Wraithguard is very powerful by itself even without the Scythes. You could squish one more into the list and buy the Serpent for the remaining 10 points a small upgrade like Spirit Stones or the Ghostwalk Matrix.

Suite wrote:
Spirit Stone of Anath'lan is what you want 15 points. Regarding the WG: It's been the same way in the old codex, no mix and match. Don't know exactly why but it fits the Eldar theme of specialization. The normal Wraithguard is very powerful by itself even without the Scythes. You could squish one more into the list and buy the Serpent for the remaining 10 points a small upgrade like Spirit Stones or the Ghostwalk Matrix.

I think I must have looked at the vehicle "spirit stones" when I was looking for the price of the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan. At 15 points then it's harder to see the value. I didn't realize the point cost of prescience had gone up, so I was still using the 6th edition datacard for it, so with that in mind it is a pretty strong item. Due to spiritseer making WG troops in the last edition, I am pretty new with both farseer and eldar jetbikes as you might have noticed.

I think I will do what you say, and add another WG. Using guide on it makes it crazy powerful if I can get it close enough to hit anything. Holofields is probably the best option for serpent, because if I am lucky and get fortune on farseer then it can actually survive being assaulted on the way to delivering it's payload of WG?

You need the book - You're 5 points over on your Farseer unless he has a singing spear.

Although it depends slightly on the psychic discipline the seer is going to roll on, the spirit stone is incredible value. 15 points for it is under costed in most people's opinions, and that includes mine. I never ever leave it off my farseer. It's an exceptional relic.

partninja wrote:
You need the book - You're 5 points over on your Farseer unless he has a singing spear.

I am using the spear.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Although it depends slightly on the psychic discipline the seer is going to roll on, the spirit stone is incredible value. 15 points for it is under costed in most people's opinions, and that includes mine. I never ever leave it off my farseer. It's an exceptional relic.

As I said, considering that prescience is 2 points now, it is a pretty strong item. I would have to drop the spear to be able to afford it at 15 points though, which would require removing the arm and gluing/painting on a new one. Alternatively I would have to drop the extra WG, but dropping a WG for an item that will probably not change anything for me in psychic phase (I lose his inv save as well) doesn't seem worth it. On the other hand, I could fit in an extra bike on the list.

You should list all of the options then

partninja wrote:
You should list all of the options then

Yes, I should.

Edit: And it is fixed now.

Your wave serpent is also over costed - I assume you're missing the upgrade options here?

I'd take the extra bike and the stone in a competitive list personally. I don't think a 6th Wraithguard is worth it. There's little that survives 5 D shots anyway. 6 is over kill when there's better options.

partninja wrote:
Your wave serpent is also over costed - I assume you're missing the upgrade options here?

Yupp, I am running cannon on it, but haven't quite decided between starcannon, bright lance or scatter laser, the cost is the same though.

Since you asked, I started doing the math now. A scatter laser shooting at marines will inflict 0,99 wounds on average, and a starcannon will do 1.48 wounds. Scatter laser is way better against vehicles and infantry with 4+/5+/6+ armor save. So the only time it is better to run starcannon is if you know there will be some 2+ armor on the table (which the cannon can still pass on a 6+), and that the WG or CH won't be able to engage them. Bright lance would only be good against av13+ vehicles. I might have done the math wrong, but at AV12 the scatter laser seemed to have 0.59 chance to score a wound and the bright lance has 0.44.

So the clear winner is the scatter laser. Assuming I have mathed correctly. I will update my post to reflect this.

I like to put Lances on my Serpents as they generally carry infantry who are good at killing infantry already. I also generally don't like to use Dragons or other such totally dedicated AV13+ busting units. So Lances make sense in most of my lists.

You already have wraith cannons and a crimson hunter for higher armor. Plenty of other S6 for lighter armor as well. So a Scatter laser, shuriken cannon, or starcannon would all be fine on the Serpent.

an EML, gives you extra options for infantry (blast), AT/MCs (S8 AP3), and AA (flakk).

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'd take the extra bike and the stone in a competitive list personally. I don't think a 6th Wraithguard is worth it. There's little that survives 5 D shots anyway. 6 is over kill when there's better options.

Mostly I wanted it to increase the chance of getting a 6 against something with Inv or Cover save, also means you can lose 1 or 2 WG to AP3 fire and still be a pretty effective unit. Also means that they will do better if I am not able to guide them.

I think you are right though. I will see if I can get some low point games inn before the tournament and try both lists. You guys have narrowed it down pretty good now, so the only variable I see is running with +1 WG or +1 Bike and Stone.

The weakest link in my list the Crimson Hunter, but I also don't see anything else that can counter flyrants.

Edit: I guess you can get 5 more bikes for 140 points, add them to one squad of total 9 bikes. Use guide on them, and there is a good chance they can do a lot of damage to a flyrant.

Anyway, thanks for all your help!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

partninja wrote:
I like to put Lances on my Serpents as they generally carry infantry who are good at killing infantry already. I also generally don't like to use Dragons or other such totally dedicated AV13+ busting units. So Lances make sense in most of my lists.

You already have wraith cannons and a crimson hunter for higher armor. Plenty of other S6 for lighter armor as well. So a Scatter laser, shuriken cannon, or starcannon would all be fine on the Serpent.

an EML, gives you extra options for infantry (blast), AT/MCs (S8 AP3), and AA (flakk).

EML is so expensive though, and it only fires 1 shot. The ony reason I see for bringing it would be to shoot down flyers, but 1 shot at S7 is just bad. Scatter laser has only a marginally worse chance of scoring a hit on the flyer, but can do so much more at 10 points less. I agree with your assesment about the Bright Lance.

I don't mind a single (although I will usually have 2-3 in the list) EML for AA since 1) It's a twin linked skyfire shot so it will almost always hit and 2) S7 against an AV10 flyer only needs a 3 to glance. On a 4 it will pen where a S6 scatter laser only pens on 5. Even twin linked I have failed to get 6s with scatter lasers when snap firing.

Just a thought.

Of course, if you're not sold on the Hunter, you could perhaps try and squeeze a hemlock in.... But that is some serious squeezing and requires you to find 2 points from somewhere.... And in this list there's very few places I'd be prepared to drop them from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, by the way, my reason for that suggestion is that the crimson hunters D cannons can target flyrants. Not other flyers, but flying monstrous creatures it can. It'd be a big LOL if you gut him with a template or two causing D3 wounds each time.

partninja wrote:I don't mind a single (although I will usually have 2-3 in the list) EML for AA since 1) It's a twin linked skyfire shot so it will almost always hit and 2) S7 against an AV10 flyer only needs a 3 to glance. On a 4 it will pen where a S6 scatter laser only pens on 5. Even twin linked I have failed to get 6s with scatter lasers when snap firing.

Just a thought.

Posting the math here so you can look it over and see if I am wrong.
Chance to score a hit with TL scatter laser on flyer: 4*(1/6) + ((4-4*(1/6)) *1/6)= 0,667 + 0,555 = 1,222
Chance to score a hit with TL EML: 1*(4/6) + ((1-1*(4/6))*4/6) = 0,667 + 0,222 = 0,889

So you actually have a higher chance to hit with SL than EML against a flyer.

Then against Flyrant or AV10
SL: 1,222*(3/6)= 0,611
EML: 0,889*(4/6)= 0,593

So the SL then does more damage against AV10 and Flyrant on average. Too bad the missiles aren't AP3 so you could ignore the armor on the flyrant and/or give it a reason to Jink.

Against AV11:
SL: 1,222*(2/6)= 0,407
EML: 0,889*(3/6)= 0444

Against AV12:
SL: 1,222*(1/6)= 0,204
EML: 0,889*(2/6)= 0,296

At this point the difference in chance of scoring a wound is so small that you might as well ignore it. 9% better chance of wounding an av12 for 10 points extra and 2% worse chance of wounding a flyrant.

The EML blast will seldom hit more than 4 models anyway (assuming you play with people who spread their models as much as they can). If it was AP3 or large blast it would have been a more interesting choice.

The starshot would only be better if you are fighting AV13 models.

So you are spending 10 points extra on each Wave Serpent on a gun that is usually worse but which in certain situations is incrimentally better, and only better if you don't have any other S8+ weapons in your list (which you can also guide/priescence with farseer).

Khaine's Wrath wrote:Of course, if you're not sold on the Hunter, you could perhaps try and squeeze a hemlock in.... But that is some serious squeezing and requires you to find 2 points from somewhere.... And in this list there's very few places I'd be prepared to drop them from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, by the way, my reason for that suggestion is that the crimson hunters D cannons can target flyrants. Not other flyers, but flying monstrous creatures it can. It'd be a big LOL if you gut him with a template or two causing D3 wounds each time.

Hemlock would be fun, but I would have no clue where to get the points for it as you say. At AV10 it will probably jink as soon as it hits the table, making it a glorified warp point generator in any following rounds. Unless flyers can jink and shoot templates for some reason?

Can't jink and fire templates but can jink and Psychic Shriek stuff which isn't effected by jink . Hemlock is amazing but doesn't fit this list like the CH does as it doesn't provide AA. Also not all armies are a threat on interceptor, come on target their AA then lolz. However in this list stick with the CH. As the maths tells you the EML is useless and should never be taken. I never understand why they cost AA weapons at a point where you're usually just better off taking a non-skyfiring volume fire unit. Like in the last dex you got more S7 hits on a flyer from Warp Spiders than EML war walkers point for point.