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Tolkien depicts his elves as being on the upper end of hardiness, and of strength, and durability.

Also, their effective immortality means that in martial terms, they are going to acclimate to fighting together, even if not explicitly drilled to do so.

Militarily, this means that they are going to be rather formidable fighters, but individually, and in groups.

Historically, authors of ancient and medieval military accounts described troops in fairly simply terms, with only a few qualities:

Training status, or how long they had been campaigning (or how many Campaigns). This was typically described, such as by Polybios, Ceasar, Artian, Vegitus, Anna Comnena, Nithard (Charlemagne's Nephew/Grandson), etc. As being Raw recruits, Seasoned, Veteran, or Elite. They could also describe them as being "Professional" if they had trained especially long in their specific weapons, which could apply to any of the statuses previously mentioned (you could have Raw Recruits, who had never before seen actual Warfare on a Campaign, yet had been trained as experts in their weapons)

These authors also tended to described their drill status (how used to fighting collectively, as a unit, rather than as individuals who just came together every now and then, or no set order, to fight in loosely defined "units"): in similar terms to their training: Undrilled Rabble, Undrilled Warriors, Undrilled Veterans, Drilled Recruits, Drilled Soldiers, Drilled Veterans.

And they describe the Warriors as having a Morale status that ranged from low (routing at the first sign of trouble) to very high (dying to the last man).

And, of course, they described the roles these troops would take on the battlefield (Heavy Infantry, Spearmen, Medium Infantry, Skirmishers, Light Infantry, Light Cavalry, Cavalry, Heavy Cavalry, Knights, Cataphracts, Etc.).

In light of these qualities, how would you tend to depict, rate, or otherwise describe elves in martial terms, not for any particular game setting, but just generally (with a human being the norm)?

So...

Typically, a Gondorian Heavy Infantryman would be a Seasoned Drilled Soldier with rather exceptionally high morale, and respectable skill with their weapons (citadel Guards would probably be thought of as Professional)

Typically, a Mordor Orc would tend to be a mob of Heavy to Medium Infantry, Seasoned Undrilled Warriors with rather fragile morale, and mediocre to fierce fighting ability, while a Hithaeglir Goblin would be a rawer warrior, Undrilled rabble, with low morale and modest skill with a weapon, probably as Medium or Light Infantry (with a few Heavy Infantry units of the more skilled Wariors).

Typically, a Rohirrim Warrior would tend to be Heavy Cavalry, Seasoned Undrilled to Drilled (depending upon if he was in one of the Four Marshall's of the Mark,s Three household Éoreds) Warrior, possibly a Veteran and professional (see Marshall's Éoreds) with respectable skill with their weapons and extremely high morale (willing to die to a man, for the most part, especially the Marshall's Éoreds - see Cirion and Eorl in Unfinished Tales for comments about the Rohirrrim Military).

In the Early Third Age (the last time the Elves had great enough numbers to field an army (outside of Thrandui's kingdoml, and possibly Lórien), Gil-Gilad's Noldorim from Lindon might be thought to be:

Veteran or Elite Drilled Heavy Infantry with expectional morale.

Would the elve's long lifespans grant them what the ancient and medieval authors described as "professional" status with their weapons (especially the main units of the remaining Noldor Army)?

In the First Age, I would have no doubt that by the middle of the Age, the Noldorim would be so skilled in their weapons so warrant such a designation, but what about the Grey Elves, who has been fighting against Morgoth's remnants for even longer (Sauron remained while Morgoth was in captivity in Valinorë to continue to harass to Sindarin and remaing Silvan Elves and Telerin with Círdan)?

And, what about Thranduil's Silvan Elves of Mirkwood, or Lórien?

Or Eregion in the Second Age?

It is not so simple as just comparing how many Orcs an Elf or Man could kill on his own, as unit combat was a different thing.

When talking about the Skirmishes on the marches of Doriath near the Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb, then such figures come into play (what is the worth of one Elf against so many Orcs?), or when looking at the confrontations on the battlefield of skirmishing units (as such units tended to be much more dependent upon the fighting skills of the individuals).

But when dealing with units of 500, 1,000, or 2,500 men (the upper limit of maneuver units on ancient battlefields (this was about the size of a typical Pike Phalanx, or the larger groupings of Gallic, Germanic, Saxon, Pict, Welsh, etc. warriors) the dynamics change substantially to being more reliant upon how well the men fought collectively.

Given this, you look at how many units would typically be expected to be confronted by a particular unit.

Such as at the Nírnaith Arnoediad, Gondolin had 10,000 Spearmen (Heavy Infantry). It is likely they were be backed up by around 2,500 to 4,000 or 5,000 Archers (Given Tolkien's descriptions of the Soldiers in the Units gaurding the seven gates of Gondolin, and that often ancient authors neglected mentioning supporting troops. The Gondolin Phalanx was probably composed of four to five "maneuver units." These Heavy Infantry would be difficult to classify, as most of Gondolin's troops had not seen combat in 200 to 300 years, but prior to that, when Turgon was at Nevrast in Vinyamar, he regularly contributed to the ongoing, and nearly endless assaults by Morgoth upon the Noldor. No doubt the troops would have been of extraordinary morale and skills, and drilled to the highest capabilities (given that this was about all Turgon could do while in Hiding). But...

How many enemy units (of what size) do you suppose the Gondolin's 10,000 Heavy Infantry could have held off???

Obviously, with several individual elves capable of felling Balrogs, the forces of Gondolin were respectable (but by no means all would be held to similar standards).

And how much would the elves have "faded' by the Third Age in comparison?

MB

42.

The thing to reemmber about the 'long retreat' is that the only time the elves fight in open battle is if sorely pressed or they have a critical advantage.

Look to the sons of Elrond and the Galadrim ambush of the orcs who crossed into Lortien following the fellowship to see how the elves fight the vast majority of their fights.

Elves ambush, and ambush again, then fade and make sure they never allow an opponent to track them home, and if any find theri way home they must not survive.

Elves dont fight a battle of attrition, even one casualty is unacceptable in most fights. Elven regular strategy is to slaughter all who oppose them without loss, and to hide when that is not possible.

I will assume that a young elf is not allowed to take his place in battle until he has mastered stealth, his weapons and where necessary horsemanship.

It's difficult to do justice to elves in wargaming, as gamers expect a body count both ways, whereas a block of elves vs a block of goblins is a defeat if the elves suffer any casualties whatsoever.

That being sad where necessary elves stand and fight, and take losses, but those engagement are normally the only times elves suffer notable losses.

Although, you can always rationalise it that a 'Casualty' doesn't mean dead.

If you treat it as "That model is no longer combat effective" (Perhaps their sword broke, along with their backup blade), it becomes more viable.

I am not really talking about Models here.

I am talking about the recorded accounts of open warfare between the Elves and others.

Not, as I specified, the skirmishes of the guarded and hidden kingdoms (Doriath prior to Thranduil's death, Gondolin except for the Nirnaeth and the Sack, and Nargothrond prior to the coming or Túrin in the First Age; Lórien and Thranduil's Kingdom in Mirkwood in the Third - save for a few open battles).

These are instances of individual elf against individual opponents.

But Elves like the Sons of Fëanor never fought be skirmish or stealth. They rode openly on the Northern Marches of Beleriand, and formed large companies of Elves to do so on Patrols, and gathered by the hundreds of thousands for the Major Battles.

And the fighting capabilities of any individual is irrelevant when in units of 1,000 Elves, give or take a thousand.

What is relevant is how well they fight together, their morale, and their experience as a unit. If they individually fight exceptionally well as a unit, this is taken into account, but is still roughly an average of the total.

And I am trying to get a touch approximation of the comparison of an equivalently sized unit of humans of similar type (say, Spearmen, or Archers).

Units are not simply the sum of the individuals.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Although, you can always rationalise it that a 'Casualty' doesn't mean dead.

If you treat it as "That model is no longer combat effective" (Perhaps their sword broke, along with their backup blade), it becomes more viable.

In mass combat simulations, the "casualties" are simply people who can no longer effectively contribute to the fight.

It might be something as trivial as a boot got stuck in the mud, and while pulling his boot out of the mud, the warrior/soldier's weapon broke in half, and their foot came out of their boot instead of the boot coming out of the mud.

Such a soldier/warrior no longer counts as being an effective part of the unit. They are a "casualty."

A "casualty" might also be a warrior/soldier who got a bad forehead cut. Not even life threatening, but they bleed like a stuck pig, and blind the warrior/soldier with blood, requiring the removal of their helmet to bind the wound (taking five to fifteen minutes).

Or, even more embarrassing: The warrior/soldier could have an enemy weapon that went completely through his armor, leaving the soldier untouched, but now they have this great big sword or spear that keeps them from doing much more than waddling along at a snail's pace.

Unit Combat is not reducible to individual soldiers fighting against individual soldiers (this is a part of the System, but it is only ones variable, connected to many others), but must rather be looked at at the level of the unit as a whole (or appropriate sub-units of the whole) against an equivalent (but not necessarily equal) and opposing part.

Thus, unit based games should deal with only those parts of the unit capable of fighting effectively according to the metrics used.
MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
The thing to reemmber about the 'long retreat' is that the only time the elves fight in open battle is if sorely pressed or they have a critical advantage.

Look to the sons of Elrond and the Galadrim ambush of the orcs who crossed into Lortien following the fellowship to see how the elves fight the vast majority of their fights.

Elves ambush, and ambush again, then fade and make sure they never allow an opponent to track them home, and if any find theri way home they must not survive.

Elves dont fight a battle of attrition, even one casualty is unacceptable in most fights. Elven regular strategy is to slaughter all who oppose them without loss, and to hide when that is not possible.

I will assume that a young elf is not allowed to take his place in battle until he has mastered stealth, his weapons and where necessary horsemanship.

It's difficult to do justice to elves in wargaming, as gamers expect a body count both ways, whereas a block of elves vs a block of goblins is a defeat if the elves suffer any casualties whatsoever.

That being sad where necessary elves stand and fight, and take losses, but those engagement are normally the only times elves suffer notable losses.

All well and good, as I pointed out for the few times during the First Age where the Elves had protected or Hidden Kingdoms, or during the later Third Age (Post Last Alliance) when most of the Elves had gone into the West.

But, as I stated, most of the First Age was open warfare with Morgoth.

The Second Age was one of complete and open Warfare with the remnant Orcs of Morgoth, and then with Sauron after the forging of The One Ring. No Elf during the Second Age was capable of fighting a war of attrition, where they used guerrila tactics.

It was only, in the Third Age, after the Noldor and Teleri remaining had the use of The Three Rings that they were again able to form fenced kingdoms where border skirmishes were the norm.

But this was not their "preference," as it forced them to hide, which they preferred NOT to do.

The Elves preferred an honest and open confrontation. Not to hide, fading into History.

MB

There's also the factor of, when in the history are we talking about? There's definitely a thread in the Silmarillion that suggests that Elves in the first age were physically and perhaps mentally hardier, especially if they had been to Valinor. This is referenced more than once. Over the long ages the Elves seem to have dwindled in power for whatever reason. By the Third Age they are barely relevant as a military force.

So I think when discussing the capabilities of the Elves, it's important to look at which period and indeed which culture of elvendom we are talking about.

From the accounts of the First Age, though, the Elf hosts were completely fearsome. They were never beaten unless it was by overwhelming force, usually involving Dragons, Barlogs or other monstrous foes. The run of the mill orcs and trolls, and even the lesser corrupted maiar who may have been possessing/taking the form of some Orcs never seemed to do much more than mass, attack, and be destroyed.

In a way, this is why historical analogues do not work particularly well- the only thing that could break the elves were things we have no analogues for - fire breathing drakes and extremely powerful spirits clothed in flesh.

I had made that distinction (between Ages).

But their individual physical capabilities are going to be largely irrelevant to unit formations of many hundreds or thousands of elves.

The overall effectiveness of the units will improve (obviously) if there is a largely significant difference in individual capabilities.

But it is still an issue that applies more to individual combat .than it does to masses of people (whether elf, man, or orc) fighting collectively.

But even in the First Age, the Noldorin Elve's were even overcome by relatively equivalent numbers of Orcs (For instance, when Beren and Finrod were captured and then taken to Tol-in-Gaurhoth. This was not by overwhelming numbers). And there are a few other instances where we have what seem to be anomalous instances of Elves being taken by roughly equivalent numbers.

Of course, this could also be because of the orcs also being of higher quality and robustness, and the greater number of Boldoeg Orcs in the First Age.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Although, you can always rationalise it that a 'Casualty' doesn't mean dead.
If you treat it as "That model is no longer combat effective" (Perhaps their sword broke, along with their backup blade), it becomes more viable.

In mass combat simulations, the "casualties" are simply people who can no longer effectively contribute to the fight.
It might be something as trivial as a boot got stuck in the mud, and while pulling his boot out of the mud, the warrior/soldier's weapon broke in half, and their foot came out of their boot instead of the boot coming out of the mud.
Such a soldier/warrior no longer counts as being an effective part of the unit. They are a "casualty."
A "casualty" might also be a warrior/soldier who got a bad forehead cut. Not even life threatening, but they bleed like a stuck pig, and blind the warrior/soldier with blood, requiring the removal of their helmet to bind the wound (taking five to fifteen minutes).
Or, even more embarrassing: The warrior/soldier could have an enemy weapon that went completely through his armor, leaving the soldier untouched, but now they have this great big sword or spear that keeps them from doing much more than waddling along at a snail's pace.
Unit Combat is not reducible to individual soldiers fighting against individual soldiers (this is a part of the System, but it is only ones variable, connected to many others), but must rather be looked at at the level of the unit as a whole (or appropriate sub-units of the whole) against an equivalent (but not necessarily equal) and opposing part.
Thus, unit based games should deal with only those parts of the unit capable of fighting effectively according to the metrics used.

I used similar rationale in Warhammer, casualties aren't necessarily dead, keeping that in mind elves vs goblins makes sense. Most goblin casulaties die, wheras only a portion of elves do due to personal retreat when wounded, better medical care better armour protection, and discipline.

BeAfraid wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
The thing to remember about the 'long retreat' is that the only time the elves fight in open battle is if sorely pressed or they have a critical advantage.
Look to the sons of Elrond and the Galadrim ambush of the orcs who crossed into Lorien following the Fellowship to see how the elves fight the vast majority of their fights.
Elves ambush, and ambush again, then fade and make sure they never allow an opponent to track them home, and if any find theri way home they must not survive.
Elves don't fight a battle of attrition, even one casualty is unacceptable in most fights. Elven regular strategy is to slaughter all who oppose them without loss, and to hide when that is not possible.
I will assume that a young elf is not allowed to take his place in battle until he has mastered stealth, his weapons and where necessary horsemanship.
It's difficult to do justice to elves in wargaming, as gamers expect a body count both ways, whereas a block of elves vs a block of goblins is a defeat if the elves suffer any casualties whatsoever.
That being sad where necessary elves stand and fight, and take losses, but those engagement are normally the only times elves suffer notable losses.

All well and good, as I pointed out for the few times during the First Age where the Elves had protected or Hidden Kingdoms, or during the later Third Age (Post Last Alliance) when most of the Elves had gone into the West.
But, as I stated, most of the First Age was open warfare with Morgoth.

I must mostly disagree with you here.

The First Age was open warfare with Morgoth, prior to the Years of the Sun the returned Noldor Eldar plus the Avari grew great kingdoms which ended when Morgoth dropped a 'nuke' and invaded.
Some of the Silvan elves fought massed engagements without armour in the early stages of the war, took horrendous casualties at the First Battle of Beleriand and never did so again. A lot of the hit and fade stems from this time.
Almost all the major Elven settlements outside of Valinor are concealed, and Valinor is itself inviolable. Gondolin is built in the First Age as a hidden city, Doriath is protected by the Girdle of Melian and cannot be assailed by Morgoth (and is destroyed in the kinslaying after being weakened by a Dwarf attack).
Norgothrond, was built underground for defence and concealment. Though the furtive approach was later countermanded and a bridge built so the Noldor could make open war. Which resulted in the loss of the city.
Yes Elves fought openly in the First Age, but only on occasion and it always wet badly for them, most notably at the Nírnaeth Arnoediad. With the pride of Norgothrond being the sole exception to the lesson of concealed defence.

BeAfraid wrote:

The Second Age was one of complete and open Warfare with the remnant Orcs of Morgoth, and then with Sauron after the forging of The One Ring. No Elf during the Second Age was capable of fighting a war of attrition, where they used guerrila tactics.

In the Second Age the Elves mostly live in peace, there was a pogrom of orcs and other things during the War of Wrath which bled into the Second age. When Sauron starts making trouble they had the vast resources of Numenor to back them up, and the vengeance of the Numenorean survivors in the last century of the age.
In any event Elves will only fight as part of a larger alliance, and deny Sauron access to,their civilian population, most likely though concealment. No recorded elf settlements fall in the Second Age.

BeAfraid wrote:

It was only, in the Third Age, after the Noldor and Teleri remaining had the use of The Three Rings that they were again able to form fenced kingdoms where border skirmishes were the norm.
But this was not their "preference," as it forced them to hide, which they preferred NOT to do.
The Elves preferred an honest and open confrontation. Not to hide, fading into History.
MB

In the Third Age the Elves rely on the three rings to conceal themselves, though Thranduil's Greenwood kingdom is concealed without the benefit of one, giving some hints as to how elves lived in the Second age prior to Sauron's defeat.
Also life like this WAS their preference. Lorien was concealed away in seclusion for reasons other than defense. The Galadrim didn't like what they saw of the passage of time, with human society developing too quickly for Elven tastes. Though while I can see this being plausible nothing even amongst men develops at any 'speed'. There was also common privacy to consider and the fact that the Rings were there as tools of preservation.
Hiding is exactly what the elves wanted to do. Fading from history, yes in a way, they kept separate. Also theri confrontations were anything but open. Lorien existed for millennia between Moria and Dol Guldur without the Enemy knowing it was there. Rivendell could not even be found by anyone with hostile intent due to the power of the Ring. Lindon was a fortress community that could ultimately be abandoned West if attacked, so Sauron didn't even bother trying; and the Greenwood elves lived underground in a part of the forest they controlled. The enemy knew they were there but didn't know exactly where and anything trying to find out got shot.

So in short after Feanor declared war on Morgoth and followed him to Middle Earth there were only relatively few open battles. Noldor and Noldor allied forces did slaughter many orcs in many engagements, but non of those mattered. Every battle which Morgoth was serious about he won, until the Valar stepped in. The elves learned this the hard way and after two massive battles resorted to hit and fade tactics and the occasional cavalry army that could attack with extreme mobility and local superiority.
After the First Age elves no longer properly went to war, they just either defended concealed borders, or hunted orcs and other things in one sided attrition. The sole exception to this was when a large army of mortals, preferably Numenorieans could be found to make up the numbers and presumably absorb a lot of the losses.
The war became known as the 'Long Retreat' which exemplified the attitude of the elves. Battle is ultimately a step back either in direct defeat or through attritional loss. Only total concealment and one sided ambushes provide any actual stability.

You seem to be neglecting the Sons of Fëanor, who did most of the heavy lifting during the First Age.

Otherwise, you are simply echoing what I had already said with the first part.

As for the Second Age.

Eregion was a Major Settlement of Elves who fell to Sauron, long before Númenóre even became involved.

The Wars of the Second Age of Sauron against the Elves waged for 100 years prior to the intervention of the Númenóreans.

Although the time between the sack of Eregion and the intervention of Tar-Ciryatur is only around a decade.

But whether or not they fought in the company of humans is irrelevant to my original questions.

MB

Such arrogance in that second sentence. Oh my.