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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
To me it's kind of like saying you're going to race a Prius against a Corvette.... but the Corvette you'll only use 2nd and 5th gears, not allow the RPM over 4000RPM, use horrible wet weather tires on a dry track while the Prius uses slicks. You might be able to produce a closer race that way, but no one is being deluded in to thinking the Prius and the Corvette are a good match.

Hahaha that's exactly how I would describe 40K matchups. I've been playing eldar for almost a year now and never brought anything OP to the table, so that I would be able to lose. While CSM I bring mostly the best stuff... and still lose! (I am a bad player)

that comment is awesome! I wish i could find the person who posted it and give them a handful of exalts :-P

Are those bikes the same Toughness? Does Toughness even matter in 40k?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
No army has an over arcing theme to its military force deployment composition nor does any real military. Militaries will always try to deploy what is best for any given situation.

Yes they will. But real world armies have to deal with things like logistics and training and ammunition and suchlike.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Are those bikes the same Toughness? Does Toughness even matter in 40k?

+1T on Orks

Of course what your now getting is JSJ, 12" range, S6 H4, so you can easily stay out of range of said orks.

the_scotsman wrote:
I would feel far more "comforted" if my last time playing a game I'd been watching an Eldar player and an Ork player try an experiment with Scatbikes and WKs against this guy's tournament-level ork list (centered around a green tide, VSG, and a few other things).

It was over by tabling at the top of turn 2. The ork player got a single turn to move and run up the board. Turn 1, a WK popped the void shields, the bikes removed 60 boyz with feel no pain from the board, the second WK exploded a battlewagon killing most of the tankbustas.. a majority of the ork army disappeared turn 1, before he even got to move. And on top of all that, with the 12" moves and JSJ on the bikes, the eldar player scored Domination (secure all objectives) on that exact same turn 1.

That's not whining, that's not theoryhammer. That's something that should NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO HAPPEN in a game of 40k. The problem is not that the eldar are too powerful, it's that they give up absolutely NOTHING for that power. NO gameplay flexibility is lost, everything they have can move and run and charge practically no matter what they do. Other races' heavy weaponry is static, other races mobile units are comparatively weaker to equivalent points spent on heavy weapons. The Eldar are mobile heavy weapon platforms that are heavier than everyone else's weapons and faster than everyone else's fastest units.

Sounds like a Grey Knights Alpha strike, or perhaps an IG massed tank shelling happened to the Orks.

IG Artillery wouldn't be able to inflict that level of destruction on a Green Tide, Nor would a Grey Knights Alpha Strike. in fact, the Grey Knights Alpha Strike would be dead turn 2 by massed orkiness.

Alcibiades wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
No army has an over arcing theme to its military force deployment composition nor does any real military. Militaries will always try to deploy what is best for any given situation.

Yes they will. But real world armies have to deal with things like logistics and training and ammunition and suchlike.

Which is why the forged narrative says your army list is exactly what happens when logistics works right.

Why would almost every battle see the same force? Because the narrative said the game you played was a critical turning point in the Eldar strategy and thus they deployed said forces against you.

Fact of the matter is in 40k a fluffy army is the most generalized utterly irrelevant statement you could make. All armies have absolutely the same level of fluff. Some "fluffy" players just try to enforce their vision of the game.

Which in all still doesn't change the fact that I don't like the direction 40k is moving in and despise the new Eldar codex so much I've put my 40k playing on hiatus for the foreseeable future lol.

Hello all. First post here!

I am the OP's first opponent, the Necron player. I figured I'd chime in with my experience with the game, and my thoughts on the new codex from the other side.

My list was a Decurion consisting of a Reclamation Legion, Canoptek Harvest, and a full Destroyer Cult. I had a CCB in the RL, and a Gauntlet of the Conflagrator on the Destroyer Lord.

Overall the game went as follows:

- Turn One -
I chose to let him take first turn because after deploying I had nothing in range of his army, and I wanted to let him move into my range since it was Purge the Alien. I spent my first turn spreading out across my deployment zone such that his deep striking Wraithguard squad wouldn't be able to hit more than one unit with their D-Scythes. I purposely moved my CCB to my back board edge so that he would have to drop deep into my army if he wanted the Warlord kill. I advanced scarabs to try to slow his Wraithknight's advance up the center of the board, and took a wound off it with pot shots.

- Turn Two -
My scarabs die to the charging WK, giving FB. The Scytheguard squad comes in and lands next to my CCB. We forgot that open topped vehicles take additional 1d6 hits to the rider when hit by template weapons (Edit: apparently I am wrong about this, and the templates simply autohit the chariot, which would have had the same effect of annihilating it), and since he chose to target the rider instead of the chariot I actually survived. If we had played the rules correctly I would have given Warlord and FB in that phase instead. I tank scattered (ha!) scatterlaser and brightlance fire. I spend my turn moving to counter the advancing Wraithknight with my Wraiths. I pour destroyer fire into it, dropping it down to 3-ish wounds remaining. My destroyer lord uses the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator to wipe the entire Scythguard + Archon + Seer squad off the board in a single shot (that was pretty satisfying). In close combat my Wraiths deal 2 wounds to the WK (since I gave them Shred).

- Turn Three -
The Warlocks put a wound back on the WK. Scattered bullets plink away at my destroyers. Hemlock and Raider/Wraithblades come in. My tomb blades survive the Hemlock whiffing, and the Raider lands in the middle of my deployment. The brightlances kill my CCB, which had tried to break for his lines. In assault, I scratch the repaired wound off the WK, so it's back down to 1 wound. During my turn I pop the Raider, and kill 2 Wraithblades before charging it with my Warriors to try to hold them in place. Sadly, I take a single casualty, fail leadership, and get swept. Oops. In my assault phase the Wraithknight D-swords a Wraith, and stomps the other four to death.

- Turn Four -
The now free Wraithknight and Wraithblades move into position to charge other units. One jetbike squad has been decimated, so the Warlock charges the nearby destroyers and dies. Hemlock hits the Ghost Ark with d-scythe but fails to do enough damage. My army continues to take stray scatterlaser and brightlance fire, which has plinked away a wounds from several Destroyers (but not destroyed any squads since I've rotated the wounded ones back). In the assault phase, the WK one-rounds my Destroyer Lord and the Wraithblades charge my Spyder (which kills one of them and survives!). In my turn I kill the Wraithknight with my remaining destroyers, and begin to advance up the field towards the remaining bikes + wave serpents, dealing some damage to them. My spyder kills another wraithblade (one left now). I force the Hemlock to jink.

- Turn Five -
The wave serpents and scatterbikes kite backwards, plinking at my advancing destroyers. He flies the Hemlock off the table. His wraithblade finishes off my spyder. I kill it off in my turn, and then force the Hemlock to jink with shooting all while advancing up the board. I kill off his wave serpents/Jetbikes and run my Tomb Blades in for linebreaker.

- Turn Six -
He shoots at my destroyers and charges my other squad with his autarch. Hemlock comes on and whiffs. At this point all I have in his deployment is 2 squads of destroyers, both with wounds on each destroyer (and one down to 2 models), and a single tomb blade. My heavy destroyers are sitting in the midfield plinking at the DE warriors. The destroyers survive the autarch charge. On my turn I advance my free destroyers, force the DE warriors to fall back, and then charge them. Not enough to kill them, but I still have linebreaker and my other destroyers survive the autarch.

Game ends 10-9. We're pretty close in kill points, 9-7, but I have linebreaker while he has first blood and warlord.

Overall assessment: Had he chosen to target my destroyer lord with his D-scythes, I probably would have lost given that I would have had no ability to remove the wraithguard without leaving the wraithknight untouched. It would have left combat with 2 more wounds, and probably been able to kill the CCB, survive the return fire, and then charge another unit. In short: I got lucky that my opponent prioritized my Warlord over the one unit capable of removing 420 of his points. Because of this I was able to focus on the single Wraithknight with most of my army, and eventually bring it down (after it made its points back and got 3 kill points, that is). If he had two wraithknights? I would have been utterly screwed regardless of what was sitting in his backline. They could win the game for him. There is effectively nothing I can do against the WWP scythe-guard aside from spreading out and forcing him to pick which unit he wants to annihilate first (I purposely had my warriors dismount the GA so that I wouldn't hand him a 2 for 1 kill point deal).

So, he brought a poor list, played poorly and still almost won?
Yeah, Eldar aren't OP.

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, he brought a poor list, played poorly and still almost won?
Yeah, Eldar aren't OP.

We had a relatively new player bring a Wave Serpent heavy list to show "how bad" Eldar had gotten with the new codex for league night at 1000pts. He beat two more experienced players running a triple flyrant list and Space Wolves.

Do you guys even hear yourselves ?

Every time an Eldar player wins its because the codex is OP and every time the Eldar player loses it's because he didn't know what he was doing and used a sub-optimal list ?

 adamsouza wrote:
Do you guys even hear yourselves ?

Every time an Eldar player wins its because the codex is OP and every time the Eldar player loses it's because he didn't know what he was doing and used a sub-optimal list ?

Loses against a Decurion (Largely considered OP) list with a sub optimal Eldar list while making many tactical blunders and still only loses by one point?
Or poor players wiping the floor with more experienced players?
If you listen to what we say instead of what you think we're saying...

 ClutterEater wrote:

We forgot that open topped vehicles take additional 1d6 hits to the rider when hit by template weapons, and since he chose to target the rider instead of the chariot I actually survived.

Templates and blasts are always resolved against the Chariot, but the rider does not suffer any damage. Chariots are not transports in 7e, do not apply transport rules to Chariots (I don't think the Chariot rules even have the word transport anywhere in them).

Also thank you for the details of the game.

 adamsouza wrote:
Do you guys even hear yourselves ?

Every time an Eldar player wins its because the codex is OP and every time the Eldar player loses it's because he didn't know what he was doing and used a sub-optimal list ?

For my post, I just relayed an event that happened, a player made X assertion and played two games and won both. For the other example, they very much made mistakes and played things wrong that *should* have resulted in an Eldar victory

Anecdotal evidence to be sure, obviously, but that's what this thread is all about.

 adamsouza wrote:
Do you guys even hear yourselves ?

Every time an Eldar player wins its because the codex is OP and every time the Eldar player loses it's because he didn't know what he was doing and used a sub-optimal list ?

I purposely brought the strongest Decurion list that I'm able to field in order to field test the new Eldar. I think that I probably had the stronger list overall in terms of my ability to take all comers, but I was impressed with how incredibly powerful some of the updated units are. Eldar players are certainly capable of playing well and still losing if their opponent has a good list to counter theirs, just outplays them, or both, but the strength of the new codex simply makes both of those scenarios less likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 ClutterEater wrote:

We forgot that open topped vehicles take additional 1d6 hits to the rider when hit by template weapons, and since he chose to target the rider instead of the chariot I actually survived.

Templates and blasts are always resolved against the Chariot, but the rider does not suffer any damage. Chariots are not transports in 7e, do not apply transport rules to Chariots (I don't think the Chariot rules even have the word transport anywhere in them).

Also thank you for the details of the game.

Ah, that makes sense. I'm pretty good about my open topped vehicles, since I run Arks a lot, but I don't field my CCB too often so I wasn't as familiar with the chariot rules as I should have been.

Poly Ranger wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Bikes and wraith constructs underperformed.

Those seem to mainly be what people are whining, crying and generally throwing their toys out the pram about.

But, scrubs will be scrubs.

This offensive, trollish language is not wanted in this community. I don't know if you've done it before but please don't insult people like this again. This is supposed to be a place for mature, reasoned debate, and not a place to insult those who don't agree with you with your first post in a particular thread. I'm just advising you against this before the MODs do.

I've edited my original post and would like to apologise, not a constructive attitude there, sorry guys.

The codex is clearly OP cf. other codexes (with the possible exception of Necrons). Having now bought the codex and seen the army-wide buffs most of the units got - and that's excluding the WK and scatterbikes which are clearly undercosted/imbalanced - I can certainly see how the casual gamer is going to struggle against even a fairly restrained list.

As I have stated elsewhere though, I hold out hope the other factions will eventually get similar unit up-levelling and formations (see the latest SM rumours). It seems GW is moving towards FW being a normality now. We're going to see superheavies and vehicle formations become a regular part of the game. Personally I'd rather they redid Epic than go this direction, but clearly decisions are being made to sell more minis, not balance the game.

As for the new jetbikes - I just bought a few ebay lots of the old bikes cheap, and will be testing semi-competitive lists with my housemate over the coming weeks. We're lucky in that we just play in-house, so we can balance things out. For tournaments or pick-up games though, yes, this codex is a problem.