Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You're comparing apples to oranges. The TIE advanced rolls three die unmodified and adds a crit at Range 1. Same at Range 2 but loses a die. At range 3 you not only lose a die your opponent gains a die due to using your primary weapon. The Defender on the other hand rolls 4 dice, all the time, never grants the opponent an extra die and the first elite pilot will be shooting with focus and target lock all the time. The other elite pilot has an ability which has the potential to add 200-400% of the damage of ATC as well as circumventing the negative side of a Heavy Laser Cannon should you roll 4 hits/crits on your first toss. these are extreme circumstances but saying "yeah it's just better and the defender completely sucks" is incorrect.

They are also more expensive for the potential higher damage. Just because one elite pilot for one ship is the same cost as the generic for another ship does not make the second ship "obsolete"

Were I in a position where I was building a list, for a tournament and i had 30 points leftover and nothing in my list effected my choice at all, I would choose Darth Vader over a generic TIE defender but that is a lot of ifs and not a solid strategy for list building anyway. Every list should have a plan. Every ship should have a purpose. In tournament play anyway.

Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda

Too bad the game was not designed where ALL ships were generic PS1 or 2..then you added a Pilot card for X points to bring up PS or add named pilots.
Juno in a Defender vs Juno in an Interceptor.
Vader in a Phantom vs Wedge in a B-Wing.

KellyJ wrote:
Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda

Too bad the game was not designed where ALL ships were generic PS1 or 2..then you added a Pilot card for X points to bring up PS or add named pilots.
Juno in a Defender vs Juno in an Interceptor.
Vader in a Phantom vs Wedge in a B-Wing.

At this point the game becomes impossible to balance and collapses amidst GW fan levels of whining.

 bocatt wrote:
the first elite pilot will be shooting with focus and target lock all the time.

Assuming you can set up the target lock from another ship correctly, in a faction that has a limited number of ships with the target lock action. This is easier said than done and far from 100% reliable.

Just because one elite pilot for one ship is the same cost as the generic for another ship does not make the second ship "obsolete"

But the argument is not that simple. It's not just that Vader is the same cost as the PS 1 defender, it's that Vader is the same cost and more powerful in virtually every situation. If you have enough points to buy a defender you almost certainly buy Vader instead. This is what makes the defender obsolete.

KellyJ wrote:
Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda

Too bad the game was not designed where ALL ships were generic PS1 or 2..then you added a Pilot card for X points to bring up PS or add named pilots.
Juno in a Defender vs Juno in an Interceptor.
Vader in a Phantom vs Wedge in a B-Wing.

That would absolutely ruin the game and it makes no thematic sense. When people see an X-wing, they think Luke Skywalker and when they see a TIE Advanced, they think Darth Vader. I understand that plenty of pilots flew multiple ships in the EU (like Corran Horn and Keyan Farlander), but having any pilot fly any ship wouldn't work.

 Peregrine wrote:

 bocatt wrote:
the first elite pilot will be shooting with focus and target lock all the time.

Assuming you can set up the target lock from another ship correctly, in a faction that has a limited number of ships with the target lock action. This is easier said than done and far from 100% reliable.

You personally have told me not to assume someone is an idiot. If you're running a list with Vessery with a HLC I assume you are not an idiot and brought Target Lock support to make him worthwhile. The only thing that's not 100% reliable is having focus as well due to stress from hard turns or having to barrel roll for God knows what reason.

Just because one elite pilot for one ship is the same cost as the generic for another ship does not make the second ship "obsolete"

But the argument is not that simple. It's not just that Vader is the same cost as the PS 1 defender, it's that Vader is the same cost and more powerful in virtually every situation. If you have enough points to buy a defender you almost certainly buy Vader instead. This is what makes the defender obsolete.

but Vader is not ubiquitously more powerful than the elite pilots of the TIE defenders. Nobody takes generic defenders. They were obsolete already. Same as the generic E Wing. The ship is not obsolete. 2/4 pilots for that ship are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly all the new Adv pilots actually make Vessery stronger. With ships that don't have to spend the target lock to add damage, you make it even more impossible to ever take a shot without a Target Lock with Vessery. Add Howlrunner to the mix so your Advanceds aren't rolling unmodified dice all the time and you might have a fairly aggressive list to work with. One that doesn't fall apart even if Howlrunner is destroyed.

 bocatt wrote:
but Vader is not ubiquitously more powerful than the elite pilots of the TIE defenders.

He really is. He's PS 9 vs. PS 6 and PS 8, ATC is roughly equivalent to having a 3.5 dice primary weapon, he has the evade action (very important for expensive ships), and his pilot ability is one of the most powerful in the game. And you're getting all of that for a lot less than the cost of a good defender.

With ships that don't have to spend the target lock to add damage, you make it even more impossible to ever take a shot without a Target Lock with Vessery.

Assuming you're willing to take ATC on generics (Vader is probably too expensive for that kind of list), which is far from a given when getting the right TL with a PS 2 ship can be difficult. And having an un-spent TL was never the problem with Vessery. An academy pilot with a targeting computer shoots after Vessery and will still have its TL at PS 6. The TIE advanced doesn't change this situation in any significant way.

Add Howlrunner to the mix so your Advanceds aren't rolling unmodified dice all the time and you might have a fairly aggressive list to work with.

Congratulations, you just negated a lot of Vessery's pilot ability. If you've got a Howlrunner re-roll then a free TL isn't worth much.

Vassery's already got a pretty gimmicky ability anyway. Why not just give him Predator instead of tricking out other ships with overpriced stuff like Targetting Computer? Against generics, it's pretty much as good as TL. Against higher PS, it's almost as good but way easier to get.

Vader's TIE/A is far more maneuverable than a Defender, not only because it can turn better, but also because that second action lets you BR while maintaining focus, which a Defender can't do. And you sure as hell don't want PtL stressing out a Defender.

I've thought about flying an almost Rebel like list with Vader, Vessery & Colzet flying in formation. Vader TLs and shoots first with ATC, Vessery fires an HLC then Colzet fires at the same target (and has FCS), spending the resultant TL to flip a card.

I like the idea, but the Defender's dial puts me off having to do formation flying with it. Maybe I'll just wait and see what that upcoming TIE only card is, see if it helps. If not, I suppose I could do a similar thing with a shuttle.

I've been waiting for something like the Imperial Raider since Wave 1... my three TIE Advanced NEED a 4-ships Elite Imperial Build.
The Title and Accuracy Corrector go a long way to accomplish this, but so do these new pilots.
BTW... I've had my Raider pre-ordered since Christmas. Happy Birthday to me.

 Riquende wrote:
I've thought about flying an almost Rebel like list with Vader, Vessery & Colzet flying in formation. Vader TLs and shoots first with ATC, Vessery fires an HLC then Colzet fires at the same target (and has FCS), spending the resultant TL to flip a card.

Vader and Vessery isn't a bad combo, but why bother with Colzet? You're wasting your precious upgrade slot on something that doesn't contribute directly to damage (you won't be able to use the TL from FCS to modify your own dice), and flipping one card some of the time (no effect against, shields, no effect if all damage cards are already face up, etc) is generally less effective than just inflicting extra face-down damage cards. If taking AC on Colzet allows you to deal an extra point of damage over unmodified dice then you've already matched the (usual) best-case scenario of flipping a "direct hit" card face-up.

How dare you critique my list with your sound logic...

Main reason is that I like the Advanced and want to fly two, and point in that list are a bit of a struggle (stupid sexy Defender with its points cost).

I think I'll probably just run a Vader/Juno/Fel list first anyway.

I do like how ST attack wing decoupled pilot from ship, but I can see the issues in balancing the expanded choices.

They could still do it, treating it sort of like a modification or title card - it'd just be a "Pilot" card, and they could limit it to certain ships.

 Riquende wrote:
Main reason is that I like the Advanced and want to fly two, and point in that list are a bit of a struggle (stupid sexy Defender with its points cost).

So use Vader + Vessery + TIE advanced, just don't treat the Colzet "combo" as an important part of the design. Take AC instead of FCS, and maybe take a PS 2 generic so you can afford better upgrades on your elite pilots. Or if you do take Colzet treat his pilot ability as a situational thing that you'll maybe sometimes use if there's a good opportunity, but otherwise ignore.

All of the new pilots are good, but they'll work in different ways.

Juno Eclipse is - much like Vader - built to be a flanker with some durability. No autothrusters or million-token-shennanigans, but as noted, one of the best dials going. With an accuracy corrector and an engine upgrade, you've got a very reliable fighter and PS8 is good enough unmodified to at least equal almost anyone.

The other named pilots have low PS - which, as noted, messes with getting target locks - but then they're much more about getting up in an opponent's face. In a range 1-2 furball, getting a target lock is a lot easier; the problem is mostly one of range 3.

Colzet's ability is essentially a saboteur that works. If you consider a generic Advanced - and why not - then Colzet's ability is a good one and he's pretty damn cheap.

You can field a nice "Storm Squadron" force - Colzet, Alozen and two unnamed Storm Squadron Pilots - and probably do quite well.

Alozen's okay. The Advanced Targeting Computer pairs up well. He's got an elite talent, but I'm not sure what I'd give him - don't give an advanced Push The Limit; they have too much trouble dumping stress. Predator might be nice - as noted, it makes him very good at hunting generics or jousters

Strom belongs in the front rank of a TIE swarm. I've had a (proxy) try with him, and he works nicely. One trick I need to master but which seems fun is the Flying Headbutt - give him Enhanced Scopes and Intimidation - pile into an enemy formation as the rest of your squad advances up behind and you can cause no end of trouble...

locarno24 wrote:
In a range 1-2 furball, getting a target lock is a lot easier; the problem is mostly one of range 3.

No, it's still very difficult because being within range isn't the only factor. Let's say your opponent has a pair of PS 6 ships, while you have PS 3 Colzet and PS 9 Vader. Which ship do you target lock with Colzet? The one you choose might fly out of Colzet's arc, or Vader might kill that one at PS 9. If either of those things happen you'll wish you had a target lock on the other one. This is why accuracy corrector is so good on the low-PS generics, you get guaranteed hits without having to take actions or worry about picking the wrong target.

Colzet's ability is essentially a saboteur that works. If you consider a generic Advanced - and why not - then Colzet's ability is a good one and he's pretty damn cheap.

It's not really very good because it's so situational. You have to spend an action to use it, and it doesn't always work. If your target loses shields instead of taking damage cards Colzet's ability is worthless. If you kill them with normal damage it's worthless. If you flip an irrelevant crit (munitions failure with no secondary weapons, etc) you've wasted your action. If the action you spent on getting (and keeping) a target lock to flip damage cards could have been spent on a focus/TL to add another hit result or a barrel roll into a better firing position then even the most common best-case result (flipping a "direct hit" card) just allows you to break even and recover the damage you lost by saving the TL. It's really just a weak ability, and the only redeeming factor is that he's so cheap that not having a good ability isn't a fatal flaw.

Predator might be nice - as noted, it makes him very good at hunting generics or jousters

The problem is now you've spent 29 points on him, compared to 30 points for Vader and ATC. And most of the time Vader is going to be the better option.

One trick I need to master but which seems fun is the Flying Headbutt - give him Enhanced Scopes and Intimidation - pile into an enemy formation as the rest of your squad advances up behind and you can cause no end of trouble...

Never use enhanced scopes. You're giving up powerful upgrades (AC/ATC) for an ability that you don't even want every turn. Maybe if was an optional PS 0 it would be worth looking at, but voluntarily taking away your ability to respond to your opponent's movement choices is a terrible idea. And it's even worse with intimidation since your opponent can move away once you ram them at PS 0. You'd be better off taking advanced sensors to adjust your movement with a boost/barrel roll and ram them once they've already moved and can't escape.

True, but Colzet doesn't need arc of fire either. Yes, your action might be a waste, but flipping a card face-up on something like a falcon or a decimator is by no means a bad idea - especially if you land a bad critical on Chewbacca, as the player probably has made no provision in his game plan or practice for that sort of thing.

Yes, you could have retained your target lock, and focus/barrel rolled for a better shot next turn, but knocking a hit up to a critical is often worth it. The fact that it doesn't have to be one he's dealt is what makes it seem a good ability to me. If you manage to land one hit on (for example) a squint, then turning it into a critical a turn or two down the road, especially if Colzet has no shot otherwise, could do nothing but could equally be quite nasty. Unexpected stress tokens, reduced maneuvers or no action bar can be more devastating to the Soontir Fels and IG-88s than an extra point of damage at the right moment.

He's a long way from devastating by himself, but he's a very good support fighter - have him tag along with the rest of the squad, turning the odd hit into criticals. I'm not saying he's devastating either, but he's certainly not bad for his points.


As to Governor Strom, despite the name 'Flying Headbutt' I'm not advocating ramming with him - he's not Oicunn - but moving him to block so they ram him; that way the victim loses actions, attack dice and defence dice, as well as ending up out of position.

The name is just because it's going to see him accelerate out from the front rank of the swarm the turn he does it.

locarno24 wrote:
Yes, your action might be a waste, but flipping a card face-up on something like a falcon or a decimator is by no means a bad idea - especially if you land a bad critical on Chewbacca, as the player probably has made no provision in his game plan or practice for that sort of thing.

Yes, obviously there are situations when it works really well, but you can't guarantee that your opponent is going to bring a nice crit-vulnerable ship for you to cripple. You might get to ruin Chewbacca's day, or you might be facing BBBBZ and not get to flip a single damage card.

Unexpected stress tokens, reduced maneuvers or no action bar can be more devastating to the Soontir Fels and IG-88s than an extra point of damage at the right moment.

Not really. If you deal a single damage then adding one more means your opponent now has absolutely no room for error. Hit an asteroid and die. Roll bad defense dice once and die. Take a hit from a bomb and die. And if you deal two damage then adding one more means a dead interceptor, without hoping to get lucky with your face-up cards. Don't out-clever yourself and spend so much time thinking about worst-case scenarios for crits that you miss opportunities to kill your target the boring way.

I'm not saying he's devastating either, but he's certainly not bad for his points.

Which was my point: if you set your expectations at the level of a PS 3-4 generic ship then he might be worth his points if you only have a couple of points left to upgrade a PS 2 generic. But you have to understand that you're getting a ship that is barely better than a PS 4 generic (and even that is arguable), not a key component in a list. His ability is pretty weak, and the only reason he's even worth considering is the cheap cost.

As to Governor Strom, despite the name 'Flying Headbutt' I'm not advocating ramming with him - he's not Oicunn - but moving him to block so they ram him; that way the victim loses actions, attack dice and defence dice, as well as ending up out of position.

Ok, that's a bit better, but wasting your best upgrade slot to give yourself a "PS 0" crit is still a really bad idea. Advanced sensors is much better for ramming since it lets you adjust your maneuver to ensure a hit, instead of having to move at PS 0 and watch as your opponent reveals a maneuver that doesn't hit him. And AC/ATC give you a massive firepower increase, which is important if you want him to be more than just a one-dimensional gimmick ship.