New Eldar Codex - Best to worst Phoenix Lords.

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**Crim72**

Keep in mind that Baharroth doesn't scatter via deep strike (herald of victory) this rule now confers to any squad he joins. That includes Warp spiders, Dark Eldar Scourges as well as a Warlock or Farseer with sanctic power Gate of Infinity. With Gates of Infinity he will cause the blind rule each time he deep strikes via the Suns Brilliance special rule. he has an on average 24 inch assault threat range if he breaks off from the squad. Hawk Wings allow him to move 18" and with fleet a 6" or higher charge distance. Well had to edit this. still have the blessing are used in the movement phase stuck in my head.

Asurmen is strength 5 AP 2 which means he has the chance of causing a vehicle explodes result. You need to roll a 3 ,6 ,6 so unlikely but iv'e seen it. Soul Razor states that the model is removed from play if it fails a leadership test. So Eternal Warrior wont save you from it.

Karandras and a unit of Scorpions can come on from ANY table edge turn 2. That means any of the 4 edges(This is not an outflank not sure if this means you can assault from it. im sure the rule book states that you can never assault from reserves unless stated otherwise in your codex. If it doesn't have that then perhaps). keep in mind that yea you dont get the +3 to cover save but you have a phoenix lord with a 2+ armour and the rest have 3+ armour with stealth for a 4+ cover still a hard target.

Maugan Ra can fire his weapon twice. Thats 8 shots total or 2 Poisoned 2+ AP 5 and causes a large blast STR 5 AP4 if a model is slain or a combination of the shots. He can fire each shot at a different target. Most entry's of a model which can fire twice even with split fire state that one fire profile must be used against his units target. This is not the case if he is your warlord. Strength 6 in melee makes him capable of killing monsters as well as vehicles. Though at AP 3 you will only be causing explosion results on open topped vehicles.

Faugan is strength 5 AP 1 in hand to hand with 4 attacks with Armourbane. Lets say he takes 2 wounds now he is at strength 7 AP1 6 attacks. His; like most meltas are assault weapons so he can fire then charge in hand to hand. warlocks can heal with the right psychic power. Crack shot can confer to melee. he has feel no pain. Assured Destruction also confers to hand to hand which means a +1 to the vehicle damage table for a total of +3 with the AP 1. His warlord trait allows for split fire.

All in all they are all good.

**bibotot**

Crim72 wrote:
Keep in mind that Baharroth doesn't scatter via deep strike (herald of victory) this rule now confers to any squad he joins. That includes Warp spiders, Dark Eldar Scourges as well as a Warlock or Farseer with sanctic power Gate of Infinity. With Gates of Infinity he will cause the blind rule each time he deep strikes via the Suns Brilliance special rule. Say you roll good on the Sanctic tree and also get Hammer Hand. The turn after deep striking you use Hammer Hand and get the power off he now has 4 strength 6 AP 3 (5 on the charge) attacks with an on average 24 inch assault threat range if he breaks off from the squad. Hawk Wings allow him to move 18" and with fleet a 6" or higher charge distance. Now theirs always the question if the Psychic powers stay on IC after leaving the squad. The way iv'e always looked at it is this. The Hammer Hand rule states that the psyker and the unit gains the benefits until the start of your next turn. By this all models including the IC have the benefit until said turn. Keep in mind that the psychic, movement, shooting and assault phase happen with in seconds in real time. within those second the power would not have the time to dissipate from the models. Though as their is no FAQ it still comes down to how the people you play with see the rules.

Asurmen is strength 5 AP 2 which means he has the chance of causing a vehicle explodes result. You need to roll a 3 ,6 ,6 so unlikely but iv'e seen it. Soul Razor states that the model is removed from play if it fails a leadership test. So Eternal Warrior wont save you from it.

Karandras and a unit of Scorpions can come on from ANY table edge turn 2. That means any of the 4 edges(This is not an outflank not sure if this means you can assault from it. im sure the rule book states that you can never assault from reserves unless stated otherwise in your codex. If it doesn't have that then perhaps). keep in mind that yea you dont get the +3 to cover save but you have a phoenix lord with a 2+ armour and the rest have 3+ armour with stealth for a 4+ cover still a hard target.

Maugan Ra can fire his weapon twice. Thats 8 shots total or 2 Poisoned 2+ AP 5 and causes a large blast STR 5 AP4 if a model is slain or a combination of the shots. He can fire each shot at a different target. Most entry's of a model which can fire twice even with split fire state that one fire profile must be used against his units target. This is not the case if he is your warlord. Strength 6 in melee makes him capable of killing monsters as well as vehicles. Though at AP 3 you will only be causing explosion results on open topped vehicles.

Faugan is strength 5 AP 1 in hand to hand with 4 attacks with Armourbane. Lets say he takes 2 wounds now he is at strength 7 AP1 6 attacks. His; like most meltas are assault weapons so he can fire then charge in hand to hand. warlocks can heal with the right psychic power. Crack shot can confer to melee. he has feel no pain. Assured Destruction also confers to hand to hand which means a +1 to the vehicle damage table for a total of +3 with the AP 1. His warlord trait allows for split fire.

All in all they are all good.

Hammer Hand is in the Psychic phase. You split the IC from the squad in the Movement phase, which is before that. Baharoth cannot benefit from this one. I play Grey Knights and I am sad because of this. People tend to keep Warp Spiders on the board, knowing they can start shooting on turn 2 with their ridiculous jumping. I kinda wish I could put him with Draigo Deathstar.

Just infiltrate Karadras. Just because the rule is there does not mean we should over-complicate him. Most battlefields will have line of sight blocking terrain. Put him behind those and wait for turn 2 to assault.

Most ET units are Ld10, except maybe Ghazskull. It is very unlikely that will happen. If he is lucky, Asurmen can kill a Canifex (Ld8) by taking off one wounds. Nothing beats the Black Mace.

Maugan Ra is awesome.

If there is anyway Fuegan can kill a Daemon Prince with wings or the Dreadknight with Teleporter, both of which cost way less than him, tell me. And I will make you my sensei. He was bad enough in previous edition. No longer able to shoot twice finally puts the nail to the coffin.

**ColonelFazackerley**

They are all a bit pricey. I would rank Baharoth a bit higher, mostly because he can bring Hit and Run.

**epronovost**

What do you people think of Drahzar? I personnaly think he can give a good run for their money to many beatstick character in the game. How do you think he compares to other Phoenix Lord (he is one of them after all).

**chanceafs**

I want to see a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord.

That is all.

**extremefreak17**

Baharroth makes the seer council viable with hit and run.

Asurmen can has the possibility for some sick combos with LD modifiers. CWE/DE/Harlies have plenty to go around.

**Jimsolo**

epronovost wrote:
What do you people think of Drahzar? I personnaly think he can give a good run for their money to many beatstick character in the game. How do you think he compares to other Phoenix Lord (he is one of them after all).

Given his point cost and mandatory escort, he's hands down the worst of all of them.

**BlaxicanX**

I want to make a death-star with a WWP shadowfield Archon, Wraithblades and Jain Zar.

Deep-strike them near the bulk of my opponent's army, and have the Archon tank shots at the front with his 2++. Entire unit is majority toughness 6. Charge and annihilate something, tank some more, charge something else. It'll get dropped eventually but ripping open a gunline in exchange seems fun, if not worth it.

**noghri**

I was thinking about Karandras with RAW doesn't imply he and his unit are flanking, so they would be able to assault the turn they come in, right? If that's the case, the (risky) idea is to have a Skyrunner Autarch (maybe faster with wings at the cost of less T) with Banshee mask running in another squad, and when Karandras come in, leave that squad and join Scorpions one. That way you could assault with no overwatch risk (Tau, flamers, blobs, etc). What do you think about it?

**Okapi**

It's not outflank that prevents you from assaulting, it's reserves, so unfortunately he can't assault the turn he comes on.

**BetrayTheWorld**

noghri wrote:
I was thinking about Karandras with RAW doesn't imply he and his unit are flanking, so they would be able to assault the turn they come in, right?

Outflanking isn't what stops a unit from attacking when they arrive. The rule that stops them from assaulting is "Arriving from reserves" which Karandras is still doing. Basically, no one can come onto the board from reserves and be able to assault immediately unless they have a rule the specifically says otherwise. It won't be ambiguous, or an overlooked mistake like Karandras rule of coming in from any table edge. This is one rare case where the wording is pretty airtight by GW. You can't charge in the same turn you arrive from reserves.

**noghri**

Thanks for your clarification. As usually something on reserves either Flank or Deep Strike, it made sense in my mind. Thank you again, I guess I'll leave him on board on turn 1

**BetrayTheWorld**

noghri wrote:
Thanks for your clarification. As usually something on reserves either Flank or Deep Strike, it made sense in my mind. Thank you again, I guess I'll leave him on board on turn 1

Not a problem. I wish it wasn't that way. It'd be cool if he and a unit of scorpions could come on from any edge and assault in the same turn. He'd be in every list I made.

**Okapi**

Scorpions seems generally decent now though. I had a game against Dark Angels (+ Knight + Vindicare) earlier today, and ten infiltrating Scorpions held the flank for a long time, having a fairly decent threat range. They hacked apart a squad of Ravenwing bikers that strayed too close and shot up an Attack Bike, before retreating back into cover. When the knight threw two AP3 pie plates at them, they went to ground for 2+ saves.

Karandras is really mostly a super Exarch with this unit. If he had been there I might even have gone after that Knight. Sure, at S8 he'll need 5s to glance, but unless he get lucky with the stomps the Knights is going down eventually.

Weird that he doesn't have Stalker, though.

**ConanMan**

the best phoneix lord for buffing is probably Jain Zar, if you get a Spitiseer with quicken and her warlord trait put them in 10 wraithblades you now have a VERY fast unit that can do 6"+2D3+D6 movement per turn, I personally am toying with this as an alpha strike. She also runs 6"+D6(rerollable) + 2D3 HERSELF if she takes the warlord trait.. this is not easily spotted in the codex, but it is true.

in a stand up fight the best is karandras

I must point out though that I detest randomness in list building. Therefore the best thing with phoneix lords is NOT having to roll a warlord trait, I hate Asurmen because he doesn't garantee anything in the warlord department! (He also has fleshbane, so the guy who before was trolling him for having str 5 is rather daft :-))

**Slayer-Fan123**

The best is Maugen. He doesn't require any gimmicks and need to be up close, he fires at whatever he chooses, and has overall the best weapon for multiple jobs.

**BetrayTheWorld**

ConanMan wrote:
the best phoneix lord for buffing is probably Jain Zar, if you get a Spitiseer with quicken and her warlord trait put them in 10 wraithblades you now have a VERY fast unit that can do 6"+2D3+D6 movement per turn, I personally am toying with this as an alpha strike. She also runs 6"+D6(rerollable) + 2D3 HERSELF if she takes the warlord trait.. this is not easily spotted in the codex, but it is true.

in a stand up fight the best is karandras

I must point out though that I detest randomness in list building. Therefore the best thing with phoneix lords is NOT having to roll a warlord trait, I hate Asurmen because he doesn't garantee anything in the warlord department! (He also has fleshbane, so the guy who before was trolling him for having str 5 is rather daft :-))

Uhhhh, what? Almost none of this is right. Asurmen doesn't have fleshbane, and Jain Zar doesn't get all those movement modifiers. She gets +3 to run and charge move ONLY IF in a unit that also has the acrobatic rule(ie, banshees), and her warlord trait lets her add +3 to her unit's run roll, which does no good on any turn that you want her unit to assault. That's it. She doesn't have any other movement modifiers, and so, in that unit of wraithblades, they could move 6 inches, and run 1d6+3. If they were part of the craftworld warhost, they'd be able to move 6" and automatically run 9 inches. On top of that, if you manage to get a spiritseer with quicken, you can add +3 inches to their run, not d3. But the chance of a single spirit seer failing to get quicken is 66%, so it's not really worth planning to have. Further, in the warhost, the only way to get a spiritseer is with the Wraith Host formation, which is expensive and limits other options, so you don't really have the option of taking multiple spiritseers to ensure 1 of them has quicken, unless you start dabbling in additional CADs and things that are typically banned from competitive play.

**Okapi**

Also note that a CAD Spiritseer would run D6", not 6", and possibly slow the unit down.

**ConanMan**

her warlord trait lets her add +3 to her unit's run roll, which does no good on any turn that you want her unit to assault. That's it. She doesn't have any other movement modifiers

What a tedious post!

You say "I am wrong" then argue yourself into "he is right, actualy it's better," my point was about Jain Zar's buff potency and it's better than I remembered.

It was only "wrong" in that it is +3" not +D3"..!!! so my points are all correct ( and better than I'd rememebered. )

So Jain Zars buffs are incredible.

Quicken gives +3" (she gets this if with the unit with the spitiseer and he manages the cast, which he will do if you kit him properly, and he isn't the only psyker)
Acrobatic gives +3" (she gets this when alone or with banshees)
Falcons Swiftness gives +3" (she gets this alone AND gives it to her squadmates) but only if she is the warlord

You are troling your imagination for the rest of it: I never mentioned Acrobatic at all except as an aside yet you built a case around the rebuttal of it, imagining that I had said it. I also never mentioned the guardian battlehost 6" run rule, so you brought it up (wrongly) then refuted something you yet again imagined I said, personally I wouldn't deviate from CAD simply because of objective secured.

So if she joins a unit of wraithblades with quicken that unit will run (not charge, I never mentioned charge, you imagined I did, then told me off for it when I never said it and I knew perfectly well what terms to use, and my statements were solid) 6+D6" so 13" to 18" per go

Muppet

**Okapi**

Asurmen still doesn't have fleshbane.

You're right, Jain Zar/Spiritseer/Wraithguard is fast, but not the way you described it. The unit doesn't move 6+2D3+D6", it moves 6+D6+3+3.

His point about the Spiritseer not getting Quicken is also very valid. You have to take into consideration how useful it would be without it, especially considering how it is 570 points. It is also worth pointing out that all of these bonuses only apply in the shooting phase, so the turn you charge you only move 6+2D6", with no fleet to help you out.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try it out, and even if you don't get Quicken, Conceal, Protect and Empower provide nice buffs. Embolden/Horrify, Enhance/Drain and Destructor/Renewer seems a little useless though.

**BetrayTheWorld**

ConanMan wrote:
her warlord trait lets her add +3 to her unit's run roll, which does no good on any turn that you want her unit to assault. That's it. She doesn't have any other movement modifiers

What a tedious post!

You say "I am wrong" then argue yourself into "he is right, actualy it's better," my point was about Jain Zar's buff potency and it's better than I remembered.

It was only "wrong" in that it is +3" not +D3"..!!! so my points are all correct ( and better than I'd rememebered. )

So Jain Zars buffs are incredible.

Quicken gives +3" (she gets this if with the unit with the spitiseer and he manages the cast, which he will do if you kit him properly, and he isn't the only psyker)
Acrobatic gives +3" (she gets this when alone or with banshees)
Falcons Swiftness gives +3" (she gets this alone AND gives it to her squadmates) but only if she is the warlord

You are troling your imagination for the rest of it: I never mentioned Acrobatic at all except as an aside yet you built a case around the rebuttal of it, imagining that I had said it. I also never mentioned the guardian battlehost 6" run rule, so you brought it up (wrongly) then refuted something you yet again imagined I said, personally I wouldn't deviate from CAD simply because of objective secured.

So if she joins a unit of wraithblades with quicken that unit will run (not charge, I never mentioned charge, you imagined I did, then told me off for it when I never said it and I knew perfectly well what terms to use, and my statements were solid) 6+D6" so 13" to 18" per go

Muppet

You don't have to try to defend whether the situation was "better" than what you described or not. That wasn't the point. And I wasn't "telling you off". I informed you that your post was wrong, or "factually inaccurate". I went on to tell you what the actual rules are. I appologise that I started out with telling you that pretty much everything in your post was wrong. I'm sure that put you on the defensive, and when reading through the rest of my post, you were just looking for ways to disagree with me from that point forward, to prove that I wasn't fully correct about most of your post being wrong.

That being said, Okapi is right. All rules issues corrected, it's just an expensive unit that isn't guaranteed to be that fast. The only bonus you can guarantee to that unit of wraithblades is +3 inches of running distance if using Jain as your warlord. Quicken is unlikely to be had, and acrobatic doesn't apply at all. You're probably better off using dark eldar allies to bring in raiders for the wraithblades and such. They can guarantee 30 inches of movement on the first turn, and the realspace raiders detachment makes getting plenty of their transports easy and almost tax-free. For just the price of Jain Zar, you can get an Archon, 2 units of Kabalite Warriors, and a Raider to put your Wraithblades in.

**Erik_Morkai**

Another thing I want to try in a list soon is Asurmen with a squad of Banshees in a DE Raider.

The Banshee Exarch will lower LD by 2 which will make Asurmen's soulrazor more likely to go off.

**BetrayTheWorld**

Erik_Morkai wrote:
Another thing I want to try in a list soon is Asurmen with a squad of Banshees in a DE Raider.

The Banshee Exarch will lower LD by 2 which will make Asurmen's soulrazor more likely to go off.

Yeah, I was thinking about this. If you had an archon or succubus with the armor of misery in such a unit, the opponent would have to take a fear test at -4 leadership if they weren't fearless, or be reduced to WS1. If you could get a shadowseer with mask in there, it'd be -6.

**bibotot**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
bibotot wrote:

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

Jain Zar can tank most things. You're punishing any model with only 1 good close combat weapon..

Who cares? I am going to be up against Daemon Princes and Canifexes and ten billion Ork Boyz. Why 1 Close Combat weapon is such a big deal.

**Slayer-Fan123**

bibotot wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
bibotot wrote:

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

Jain Zar can tank most things. You're punishing any model with only 1 good close combat weapon..

Who cares? I am going to be up against Daemon Princes and Canifexes and ten billion Ork Boyz. Why 1 Close Combat weapon is such a big deal.

Hence why I keep saying Maugen is the best Lord. He doesn't require gimmicky bodyguards and a bunch of babying to make work.

**extremefreak17**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bibotot wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
bibotot wrote:

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

Jain Zar can tank most things. You're punishing any model with only 1 good close combat weapon..

Who cares? I am going to be up against Daemon Princes and Canifexes and ten billion Ork Boyz. Why 1 Close Combat weapon is such a big deal.

Hence why I keep saying Maugen is the best Lord. He doesn't require gimmicky bodyguards and a bunch of babying to make work.

I think he is actually the WORST PL. He is bad by himself for the points, and he doesnt get much better with a unit. At least the other Lords can hold their own.

**HawaiiMatt**

extremefreak17 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bibotot wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
bibotot wrote:

This is not about who would win if pitting all the Phoenix Lords against one another in single combat. Zain Jar is useless against vehicles, so one third of the units in the game are safe from her.

Thinking back, I would say Asurmen would be lower than her, since getting him across the table and into melee is going to be an issue. I don't understand his purpose. His shooting is crap and he can't fight against vehicles either. He's just there for some tanking.

Jain Zar can tank most things. You're punishing any model with only 1 good close combat weapon..

Who cares? I am going to be up against Daemon Princes and Canifexes and ten billion Ork Boyz. Why 1 Close Combat weapon is such a big deal.

Hence why I keep saying Maugen is the best Lord. He doesn't require gimmicky bodyguards and a bunch of babying to make work.

I think he is actually the WORST PL. He is bad by himself for the points, and he doesnt get much better with a unit. At least the other Lords can hold their own.

That's what I thought, until I caught on that he has both split fire AND whirlwind of death. I ran him with fire dragons in a raider.
Split fire and whirlwind lets you fire on 3 targets. Fire Dragons toasted a vehicle, maugan ra split fired and whirlwinded of death at two other targets. I then assaulted with the fire dragons (basically have 3 legal choices to assault), taking advantage of the meltabombs that the fire dragons are packing.
Could do the same with with wraith guard. After shooting up the main target, maugan ra gives you 2 more options to assault and hide from opponents shooting.

**Okapi**

Anyone tried Karandras with the Seer Council? The Council hits hard in combat, but struggle against 2+ saves, which Karandras helps with. He also nets them infiltrate, which combined with warlord trait scout (Eldrad gets this automagically) can get the unit right up in the opponent's face. He has stealth, which combined with shrouded from a Warlock typically gives them 2+ cover in anything other than craters, and in any case he tank for them with his 2+ save (ideally with Fortunate re-rolls). Try to get Psychic Shriek, Invisibility, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Fortune, Eldritch Storm, Mind War and/or Doom. Pretty much all the Warlock powers are useful, but Conceal, Renewer and Horrify are probably the best ones in this particular unit.

So, unkillable, hard hitting unit that starts 12" from the opposing army, rocking an I7 powerfist and 14+ armourbane/fleshbane attacks, flinging psychic attacks and generally being a pain.

**felixcat**

Maugan Ra, Farseer, Vaals battwery with d cannons and a warlock. T7, 2+ cover, tanking MCs, cc character possible invisibility and fortune, etc. Sit this squad on a relic or just place your objectives within 24" of this unit and lol. Maugan Ra is a beast for 195. I mentioned this elsewhere.

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11014p420-a-tdc-blog-strategies-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-tactics#138428

**ConanMan**

To be fair I have fought with maugan once and was gobsmacked how.good he was he tore up 20 ork boys plus 5 nobs bikers and wasn't wounded.

Glad you got fun out of it.. i'd left this post cos of the tonage of garbage self slapping trolling.. but glad you had fun !