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 Konrax wrote:
Chicken flyer with baleflamer might be decent but even with jink or hitting on 6s I don't see it lasting too long being a primary threat.

Let said Scatbikes fired 120 S6 at a Heldrake, thats like 800 pts of shooting on a 170 pts model(that alone served its purpose).... AV12, assuming jink or cursed earth... the bikes will remove 1.666 hull points from it, then not to mention "It will not die" on 5+. Eldars will have to bring flyers or dedicated anti-air to properly deal with Heldrakes which means less Scatbikes and WGs.

Big difference between shooting at Flyrants and Heldrakes.

 Konrax wrote:
Chicken flyer with baleflamer might be decent but even with jink or hitting on 6s I don't see it lasting too long being a primary threat.

No Eldar Intercept means the Hell Turkey is always a threat, and it would take an entire Army of shooting or a Dedicated Crimson Hunter Formation to have a chance at taking them down quickly. Crimson Hunters will do it, but I don't know if that 440pts will be standard in every Eldar list, it will need to be in their "TAC" lists. I mean even the fabled 30 Scattbikes all throwing their Scatter Lasers at one is only 2.2HP.

So, if Eldar don't have the Crimson Hunter Formation, they will be looking at virtually unkillable Hell Turkeys, Two of them will double or triple their points over the course of the game and they are amazing against anything that Eldar fields that isn't a Wave Serpent or a Wraithknight, and its looking like most places either won't have Wraithknights, or they'll be limited to a single one.


PS And the HellTurkey never Jinks, it has a 5++, and Jinking would mean no Baleflamer the following turn.

Aside from the fact that 'making their points' is a terrible way to evaluate a unit...

Helldrakes cannot take objectives. Individual bikes, can, and I guarantee there will be some left after the drake starts roasting 4-5 a turn. A single hunter exarch will do 1.666 HP's to a turkey in a round of shooting.

Taking a regular CAD is still an option for Eldar players. This means they don't HAVE to take 3 hunters to get any. I'll be including an exarch hunter in most of my bikespam lists. Along with 3 squads of hawks. They should do a decent job of taking care of planes. Also, guided wraithknight can punk a flier sometimes.

Belly wrote:
Aside from the fact that 'making their points' is a terrible way to evaluate a unit...

Helldrakes cannot take objectives. Individual bikes, can, and I guarantee there will be some left after the drake starts roasting 4-5 a turn. A single hunter exarch will do 1.666 HP's to a turkey in a round of shooting.

Taking a regular CAD is still an option for Eldar players. This means they don't HAVE to take 3 hunters to get any. I'll be including an exarch hunter in most of my bikespam lists. Along with 3 squads of hawks. They should do a decent job of taking care of planes. Also, guided wraithknight can punk a flier sometimes.

Yes, earning your points is a terrible metric, and one I did not use. I was just trying to emphasize how much damage they could do. Sure, single bikes will likely be left, but those can be picked off.

Note. I never said they HAD to take three, but the Formation offer significant incentive to do so.

Yes, a lone Crimson Hunter Exarch will deal solid damage to one, but with IWND and two turkeys will have an effective 6-7 turns worth of shooting and vector striking between the two of them. That is quite a bit of carnage.

Alright so heldrake sounds like a good option to take for chaos.

Maybe throw in a defiler too and you can get some artillery support from a table edge. Could help force units into a funnel for the turkey roast.

I think the rhino havoc launcher might be decent for low point cost as we'll.

Space marine Typhon?

400 and change points for a 48" range S10 Ap1 cannon, 7" blast that ignores cover. Also 2 lascannons. Immune to the jet bikes firepower as well.

Of course, it will eat every single. D-cannon the wrath knights can bring to bare against it every single turn.

Battlewagons with Killkannons would be a decent option for Orks but D weapons give all vehicles..... well the D.

 Konrax wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Whirlwinds are not good against, well, very much. Thudd guns, Wyverns, and scorpius whirlwind maybe, but not regular whirlwinds. And all of those honestly have some issues due to being small blasts. Jetbikes can spread out a lot, a small blast will often only hit one, maybe two bikes, and then artillery gets a lot less scary.

I believe it fires a large blast.

Edit: Eldar jetbikes have a 4+ save I believe also

They should have a 4+ armor save. For IG I'd recommend Basilisks in cover. They can fire inside their minimum range IIRC just not as barrage. Forcing them to Jink is a good thing. Almost as good as killing them. WK will kill some, you'll kill plenty of bikes first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Battlewagons with Killkannons would be a decent option for Orks but D weapons give all vehicles..... well the D.

4 Rokkits and a Kannon or KMB would be better. Half the points, one more Str, doesn't cause other weapons to Snap Fire due to Ordnance rules, can snap fire if going more than 6" or shooting at fliers.

Although Boom Gun on Looted wagon is dirt cheap

Just want to point out that hell turkeys can take objectives in 7th, contrary to what was mentioned earlier.

 Konrax wrote:


Shame I play chaos.

If you play Chaos you have the best Windrider counter in the entire game: Helldrakes. Fast enough to catch them, wounds on 2+, ignores armour and cover, and very tough to kill in return, being an AV12 flyer with a 5+ save and IWND. On average you'll need 40 Windriders to take out a single Helldrake in a one turn (front or side, no buffs on either).

Okapi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:


Shame I play chaos.

If you play Chaos you have the best Windrider counter in the entire game: Helldrakes. Fast enough to catch them, wounds on 2+, ignores armour and cover, and very tough to kill in return, being an AV12 flyer with a 5+ save and IWND. On average you'll need 40 Windriders to take out a single Helldrake in a one turn (front or side, no buffs on either).

Shame I don't use the heldrake because I don't think it fits flufwise or aesthetically with Chaos and not because I feel the need to win games without style.

 Konrax wrote:

Okapi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:


Shame I play chaos.

If you play Chaos you have the best Windrider counter in the entire game: Helldrakes. Fast enough to catch them, wounds on 2+, ignores armour and cover, and very tough to kill in return, being an AV12 flyer with a 5+ save and IWND. On average you'll need 40 Windriders to take out a single Helldrake in a one turn (front or side, no buffs on either).

Shame I don't use the heldrake because I don't think it fits flufwise or aesthetically with Chaos and not because I feel the need to win games without style.

Then convert a flier to represent it. You have a strong and effective unit choice, so don't complain you lack options. That's like saying "man, my space marines are having trouble with 2+AS units. Shame I don't like the looks of plasma."

Hmmm could be an idea, but then again I don't really play against eldar bikes.

This whole topic was to look at some of the less common counters people might consider like a whirlwind.

 Konrax wrote:
Chicken flyer with baleflamer might be decent but even with jink or hitting on 6s I don't see it lasting too long being a primary threat.

It doesn't need to jink, it's a daemon. Say you have a Helldrake and your opponent has 20 scatter laser Windriders. He opens fire with his 80 shots. Out of those, 13,33 hit. Out of those, 2,22 glance. Then you roll some dice, and 1,48 get through. In other words, on average, you'll need more than 40 Windriders to reliable take out a Helldrake. On top of that, you don't start on the board, meaning you'd likely kill 4-5 of them before he even gets to fire off a shot, reducing their damage output even further. Then, if you've manoeuvred reasonably well, the only way for him to avoid taking another beating from the Helldrake next turn will be to head towards your deployment zone (possibly requiring a boost), where you hopefully have a couple of support units.

Helldrakes murder Windriders. There really is no unit better at it in the entire game (Dark Reapers and Noise Marines are decent offensively, but they have no way of handling the return fire). Being fairly bad at anti-air Eldar are generally susceptible to bomber attacks. If you fear Crimson Hunters, bring a quad-gun or two.

Okapi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Chicken flyer with baleflamer might be decent but even with jink or hitting on 6s I don't see it lasting too long being a primary threat.

It doesn't need to jink, it's a daemon. Say you have a Helldrake and your opponent has 20 scatter laser Windriders. He opens fire with his 80 shots. Out of those, 13,33 hit. Out of those, 2,22 glance. Then you roll some dice, and 1,48 get through. In other words, on average, you'll need more than 40 Windriders to reliable take out a Helldrake. On top of that, you don't start on the board, meaning you'd likely kill 4-5 of them before he even gets to fire off a shot, reducing their damage output even further. Then, if you've manoeuvred reasonably well, the only way for him to avoid taking another beating from the Helldrake next turn will be to head towards your deployment zone (possibly requiring a boost), where you hopefully have a couple of support units.

Helldrakes murder Windriders. There really is no unit better at it in the entire game (Dark Reapers and Noise Marines are decent offensively, but they have no way of handling the return fire). Being fairly bad at anti-air Eldar are generally susceptible to bomber attacks. If you fear Crimson Hunters, bring a quad-gun or two.

Or he gets a skyfire nexus and murderises you with just one squad.

Whirlwind Scorpius with the ignores cover legacy.

Not much else for marines that use blasts, I'm afraid. Tiggy that gets the ignore cover spell, with centurions, will kill bikes quick.

 koooaei wrote:

Okapi wrote:
Or he gets a skyfire nexus and murderises you with just one squad.

What is that? Neither Google, GW or FW are helpful. Is it shorthand for something?

 Carnage43 wrote:
Space marine Typhon?

400 and change points for a 48" range S10 Ap1 cannon, 7" blast that ignores cover. Also 2 lascannons. Immune to the jet bikes firepower as well.

Of course, it will eat every single. D-cannon the wrath knights can bring to bare against it every single turn.

This. Although 80pts for 2 tl lascannons is a massive ripoff. Just keep it stock at 350pts or 370pts with ceremite (because fragons).

Coming from a BA perspective, Baal Predators might be a good answer to bikes, and the allied in open topped transports for wraithguard and the like. Heck, they're even good against the squadrons of hornets that have been popping up recently. Only place they fall short of the fast tri las pred is against the wraithknight.

Other than that, I feel like taking to the skies might be a decent way to fight eldar. Most eldar players are so caught up in the "moar bikes and wraiths" trend that they fail to take any actual AA. My dual raven list might have some luck, as bikes need 6s to hit and then 6s to glance. Even with 20 shots from a 5 man bike unit, that only has a 50% chance of happening.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Coming from a BA perspective, Baal Predators might be a good answer to bikes, and the allied in open topped transports for wraithguard and the like. Heck, they're even good against the squadrons of hornets that have been popping up recently. Only place they fall short of the fast tri las pred is against the wraithknight.

Other than that, I feel like taking to the skies might be a decent way to fight eldar. Most eldar players are so caught up in the "moar bikes and wraiths" trend that they fail to take any actual AA. My dual raven list might have some luck, as bikes need 6s to hit and then 6s to glance. Even with 20 shots from a 5 man bike unit, that only has a 50% chance of happening.

But the dual ravens themselves can't cause enough damage to matter. And they start in reserve.

The problem is, for an assault cannon to get into range it will very often easily expose its side armour to the mobile bikes. A mere 3 scat bikes causes 2.7hp of damage against the side of a pred.

Median Trace wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
How the f did the design team think that giving regular jetbikes at 17points a 3+ armour save was a good idea / balanced...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Eldar-Windriders


Huh, a new kit. Probably just a coincidence though.

It's certainly the reason mutilators were so over powered when they came out.

Edit:
and I don't get the hate behind the idea of the heldrake. Sure some people don't like dinobots. Fair enough. But a chaos space marine that has fused with his weapon and turned kinda daemonic is a long standing theme, and that is all a heldrake essentially is.

Well, with any kind of reroll to reserves the ravens come in reliably on turn 2. And mine usually make up more than their points cost in a given game.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Well, with any kind of reroll to reserves the ravens come in reliably on turn 2. And mine usually make up more than their points cost in a given game.

But you have to invest in the reroll for starters. What are you targeting to make back so many points with Stormravens? They are poor anti-tank now.

For Astra Militarum I would use a squadron of Wyverns. Eldar Jetbikes don't stand a chance against that squadron.

If you can keep them behind los blocking terrain to keep them safe from shooty Wraithknights then they should be able to kill one Eldar Jetbike squad per turn, no matter how large the squad of jetbikes wIll be

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Space marine Typhon?

400 and change points for a 48" range S10 Ap1 cannon, 7" blast that ignores cover. Also 2 lascannons. Immune to the jet bikes firepower as well.

Of course, it will eat every single. D-cannon the wrath knights can bring to bare against it every single turn.

This. Although 80pts for 2 tl lascannons is a massive ripoff. Just keep it stock at 350pts or 370pts with ceremite (because fragons).

It's 40 points for the 2 lascannons....and they aren't twin-linked.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Well, with any kind of reroll to reserves the ravens come in reliably on turn 2. And mine usually make up more than their points cost in a given game.

But you have to invest in the reroll for starters. What are you targeting to make back so many points with Stormravens? They are poor anti-tank now.

Dante isn't much of an investment, in the sense that you're getting the rerolls as a side dish to his combat prowess and squad buffs. And i usually kit 1 raven with multi melta and las, and the other with melta and asscan, both with hurricane bolters. Does a number on most vehicles and shreds light/medium infantry.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Space marine Typhon?

400 and change points for a 48" range S10 Ap1 cannon, 7" blast that ignores cover. Also 2 lascannons. Immune to the jet bikes firepower as well.

Of course, it will eat every single. D-cannon the wrath knights can bring to bare against it every single turn.

This. Although 80pts for 2 tl lascannons is a massive ripoff. Just keep it stock at 350pts or 370pts with ceremite (because fragons).

It's 40 points for the 2 lascannons....and they aren't twin-linked.

Oh yes. I had 40 in my head and thought that was for each. Still a complete rip off imo. Pintile MM however will completely be worth it, even if 20pts, as you want to be close to threaten with crushing weight.

Round hole, square peg.

Just use Basilisks, or even better, Colossus Bombards instead.

Earthshaker cannon battery isn't fragile and is much cheaper.