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And so it begins,
the great diminishing of our time.

Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game: The Fallen Realms is SOLD OUT on the US site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Fallen-Realms-EN

The journey dosent end here. Death is just another path that all fun games from GW must take. The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.
Clean well lit game-stores where LOTR is still played, and beyond, tables of epic, blood bowl, other specilist games and warhammer historicals

Elladan and Elrohir and now sold out on the US site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Elladan-and-Elrohir

I wonder which models will follow them.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
I wonder which models will follow them.

MB

All of them, eventually. The metal ones are taken out of production first, then the resin ones and later on even the plastic sets. Altough maybe GW will continue to produce a severely limited range.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
I wonder which models will follow them.

MB

All of them, eventually. The metal ones are taken out of production first, then the resin ones and later on even the plastic sets. Altough maybe GW will continue to produce a severely limited range.

Well... If people are absolutely married to the movie version of Middle-earth, then this will be a catastrophe.

And, even if you are not married to the movie version of Middle-earth, or perhaps (Ehem) do not like it, this will be less of a catastrophe. But the line does contain a lot of very attractive models, regardless of where the designs originated.

But there are already plans to produce a more complete line of miniatures intended to ultimately be used for Middle-earth, even if not an official line or product.

Hopefully more sculptors can eventually be enlisted for the job.

But not being able to get many of the miniatures will suck (I should check the site, as I still need a few more of some of the miniatures - mostly the Gondor personalities - and... I should get some of The Hobbit miniatures I like, such as the Rivendell Mounted Elves).

MB

There's a thread on One Ring in the news forum that had a list of everything that is now OOP. It makes for pretty sad reading...

I have fond memories of the early LotR figures, and the affordable prices they were (handy for a uni student looking to get back into the hobby...). My generally apathy towards the Hobbit films and any respective models though, plus the insane prices the range moved to means I'm feeling largely meh about its disappearance.

It had a good run. Probably longer than it deserved.

Just placed a huge order getting all the things I wanted but never picked up. Shame that soon I wont be able to pick something up if I need it, but I have enough for 4 armies or so, so I shoiuld be good to go!

Begins? It began years ago

Isn't there an official line based on the books?

It's an old long-running line... I want to say Thunderbolt Mountain but I could be wrong.

Mithril Miniatures do a more book based line, but I don't know if they're able to do new stuff while GW are still producing LotR stuff.

 Paradigm wrote:
Mithril Miniatures do a more book based line, but I don't know if they're able to do new stuff while GW are still producing LotR stuff.

Mithril is allowed to do new miniatures (and they have typically released about one a month).

The Mithril License applies to the Role Playing Games, and they are "technically" not allowed to produce "wargaming" miniatures that would conflict with GW's license.

The details are quite complex, and somewhat subjective.

In fact, Mithril used to produce several lines created for mass combat. They had a complete line of Mordor Orcs (roughly 30 variants), Rohirrim, Gondorians with several of the fiefs, and we're in the process of creating Half-Orcs with Pikes (a US Company produced them for a while, and stupidly sold the greens on eBay, AS INDIVIDUALS, rather than as a line. Meaning that line is likely forever gone. They were beautiful), and several Haradrim (enough for an army)... And, again, they had planned to do a line of mounted Haradrim. And they have Dunlendings, and Isengard Orcs.

But the planned Haradrim and Half-Orcs were nuked by the release of the Orignal Trilogy. The Isengard Orcs were released just in time to avoid conflict with the Trilogy license interfering.

MB

Mithril, thanks, I knew it was one of the old school makers.

I imagine it's a contract like the one for Star Fleet Battles, books only, nothing since then, no movie designs, and if they stop making stuff they lose it.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Isn't there an official line based on the books?

It's an old long-running line... I want to say Thunderbolt Mountain but I could be wrong.

As was pointed out, Mithril has an official license as well.

Tom Meier, the owner of Thunderbolt Mountain, does a fantasy line that is incomplete, but is VERY influenced by the Tolkien.

But Thunderbolt Mountain only makes Orcs/Goblins, Wood Elves, and a few High Elves.

But he only makes one command group for the Wood Elves and Goblins, and only the Wood Elves have the figures to do a complete army.

The High Elves have the figures (one pose each) for three different Spear units, and three different Archer Units.

And, we do not know for which Age of Middle-earth any of the lines are intended.

The Orcs he says are intended to represent a more "Northern" tribe or group of Orcs. This would mean they were either Morgoth Orcs from the First Age, or that they are Orcs/Goblins from the Northern Hithaeglir (Misty Mountains) for the Second and Third Ages

It is likely the latter, since he also says they are suppose to inhabit mountainous realms.

This would likely mean that the Wood Elves are intended to be Mirkwood/Thranduil's Elves, and that the High Elves are intended to be from Lindon or Eregion (possibly Lórien).

But all could be used for First or Second Age troops as well.

I have got a line of "Lesser-Orcs/Goblins" about half finished that are intended to work with the Thunderbolt Mountain Goblins/Orcs. And I plan to do a few more "Greater-Orcs/Goblins" that would allow for First Age Angband armies (Since the Orcs of the Fist Age tended to be fiercer and larger than the later Orcs, save for the Uruk-Hai of Saruman, and the Black Uruks of Mordor).

And I have the base-meshes completed for extending the High Elves, as well as adding Human Forces (Starting with Gondor in the Mid-Third Age). All of the figures should mix with Thunderbolt Mountain's quite well, having a style similar to that of Tom Meier.

But it is likely that these will never be "official" lines for Middle-earth, given the difficulty involved in negotiating such a license from The Tolkien Estate for the remaining First and Second Age licenses, not owned by Saul Zaentz and/or New Line Cinema (and thus GW).

But the goal is to provide complete lines that will fill out most of the required miniatures for Mass Combat in Middle-earth (It will make it somewhat of a challenge to do certain characters, specifically the named Hobbits - Other named characters remain generic enough to be able to portray with fewer problems). Basically three to six poses for most units in the human armies, and four to eight poses for the Orcs and Haradrim, the Hill-Men of the Second Age, or the First Age Easterings and Third Age Dunlendings (as these two are related). And providing armies for all three Ages (obviously several years of work)

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Mithril, thanks, I knew it was one of the old school makers.

I imagine it's a contract like the one for Star Fleet Battles, books only, nothing since then, no movie designs, and if they stop making stuff they lose it.

That is exactly what their license is like.

I used to play-test for Task Force Games (and if my wife had not stole all of my stuff, would have a suit that they stole the rules for Star Fleet Commander from me and the author of the X-Ships, and Pseudo-Fighters expansions: Michael Thompson), and I was around when everything went down with Paramount.

It basically amounts to Paramount (or New Line) being a Third Party to the licenses, and that if Task Force (or Mithril) had more money, they technically could have won the full rights to the gaming industry products for Star Trek (or Tolkien's works)..

But because they did not have the money to force a trial, they agreed to a settlement that allowed them to keep producing content. Just only if it did not intrude upon the movies (either the Star Trek, or the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit movies).

And there remain loopholes in the licenses still (especially for Middle-earth), if someone had a few million dollars to throw into Legal Fees.

But the easiest thing to do is to simply wait for Sault Zaentz's license to expire in about five to ten years (I have it written down somewhere), and then approach The Tolkien Estate for the licenses afterwards (and be ready to show how much of a purist you are, because they will test you on it - Saul Zaentz got his license when Tolkien, and his estate were still very naive about what would be done with a license).

MB

GW has already discontinued Finecast LOTR minis, too, btw. That's why there's no Foot Knights of Dol Amroth available (they were transitioned to Finecast and then discontinued)

 judgedoug wrote:
GW has already discontinued Finecast LOTR minis, too, btw. That's why there's no Foot Knights of Dol Amroth available (they were transitioned to Finecast and then discontinued)

Well that certainly sucks. I wonder if the Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth are gone as well (will be checking in a moment). I need 12 more of them for a complete unit.

I suppose if it came down to it, and they did discontinue them, I could make copies for what I need.

Pity they did not make any Archers for Dol Amroth. Or Morthond Vale, for that matter (Since the Archers from Blackrot Vale were a formed unit of Regular Archers, rather than the unformed Skirmishers or Loose Order "Rangers" of Gondor - of which there really was no such thing).

After some replacements for the Basic Warriors for Minas Tirith (and other cities of Gondor), I think the first thing I will do is make some Archers for Morthond Vale, and then the rest of the soldiers/warriors of the Fiefs of Gondor.

MB

The men at arms are still for sale BA.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Men-at-Arms-of-Dol-Amroth

BeAfraid wrote:

But the easiest thing to do is to simply wait for Sault Zaentz's license to expire in about five to ten years (I have it written down somewhere), and then approach The Tolkien Estate for the licenses afterwards (and be ready to show how much of a purist you are, because they will test you on it - Saul Zaentz got his license when Tolkien, and his estate were still very naive about what would be done with a license).

It'd be interesting if you could share what information you have about licence rights (with sources cited, etc), as no-one seems to really know the specifics of what is what.

Brief but interesting discussion on it here:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?515797-What-is-the-real-License-Rights-between-Tolkien-Tolkien-Estates-Saul-Zaentz-Comp

 Azazelx wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:

But the easiest thing to do is to simply wait for Sault Zaentz's license to expire in about five to ten years (I have it written down somewhere), and then approach The Tolkien Estate for the licenses afterwards (and be ready to show how much of a purist you are, because they will test you on it - Saul Zaentz got his license when Tolkien, and his estate were still very naive about what would be done with a license).

It'd be interesting if you could share what information you have about licence rights (with sources cited, etc), as no-one seems to really know the specifics of what is what.

Brief but interesting discussion on it here:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?515797-What-is-the-real-License-Rights-between-Tolkien-Tolkien-Estates-Saul-Zaentz-Comp

The link provides basically what I know, sans a few details that deal with what I am pursuing.

And, out of a desire to remain accurate, I should say "rights" and not "license" when referring to Saul Zaentz.

The rights he owns MAY already have reverted to the Estate, due to the vague nature of the original agreement with United Artists.

The Estate is claiming that the "intent" was that once the movie was made, that the rights would then revert back to the Estate. There is some legal precedent for this.

Had Tolkien better understood business, he would have been much more specific, no doubt.

In studying him, I am discovering that he was something of a dim-bulb when it came to anything outside of language, and that he had substantial emotional problems later in his life (research what Tolkien really meant by Sub-Creation, or what that means for Catholic Theology, and you will begin to understand how really out-there he was about Middle-earth).

Fortunately, the rights should revert to the Estate with the next few decades. Christopher Tolkien, and his heirs are making it such a pain for Warner Bros./New Line/Zaentz to do anything else with their "Rights"/Licenses that they are beginning to tire of fighting the Estate. Given that the Estate has a really solid case on the issue of Royalties that can still be pressed, that may be the eventual turning point of the rights/licenses. But until we are in a position to produce actual products based entirely upon Tolkien's fiction, I/we will not be privy to the full details of the rights of others involved. I just know that the Estate maintains that Zaentz has exceeded his rights, and thus Warner Bros./New Line do not really have the rights they are claiming, nor the ability to license those rights to others as they have. And that they have claimed that his violation of the rights should cause the rights to revert to The Estate.

I just hope that I can remain "intact" long enough to complete my own project, and to possibly have a chance at the rights to develop new properties for Middle-earth that remain more faithful to the vision of the Tolkiens (I am having problems with a doctor that are costing me both physically and financially due to what can only be described as bigotry on the part of the doctor - and insurance issues do not allow me to easily change doctors. The consequences of this could be incredibly severe if something doesn't change soon).

As for GW's miniatures.... I have been buying what I don't have just in case they do discontinue production.

As I have said, most of what they produce would be acceptable for The Fourth Age, stylistically. And they are very attractive miniatures.

In the meantime, though, I will continue to work on my/our projects, which include the miniatures, unlicensed, maybe, and thus unable to label explicitly as being for Middle-earth. But implicitly, that is what they will be, and as long as I do not use anything named explicitly from Middle-earth, I can create miniatures that fit precisely with the roles of Middle-earth Characters.

Such as two sets of Elven Twins. Or a set of eight Elven Kings (Who will "not be" Thingol, Fëanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgin, Gil-Gilad, Celebrimbor, and Thranduil - I wonder... Does Celeborn count as a King?). Or a group of slightly Arabic looking fantasy warriors, or several sets of Eastern European/Eurasian/Asian Nomadic warriors. Or a set of Dwarves, or three or four sets of Elves... And so on...

MB