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Saying BA is fine because of Imperial Knights is like saying DE is fine because of CW Eldar.

To say nothing of Orks.

Eldar are OP. Necrons may be. Nids have some nasty options.
IKs are OP. Adeptus Mechanics may be. Astartes (Vanilla) have some nasty options.

Saying "IoM is OP" or "Xenos are OP" is about the same, and is about as right *and* wrong.

Bharring wrote:
Saying BA is fine because of Imperial Knights is like saying DE is fine because of CW Eldar.

To say nothing of Orks.

Eldar are OP. Necrons may be. Nids have some nasty options.
IKs are OP. Adeptus Mechanics may be. Astartes (Vanilla) have some nasty options.

Saying "IoM is OP" or "Xenos are OP" is about the same, and is about as right *and* wrong.

Xenos aren't OP, only very specific equipment that every Xeno player manages to identify and then take as many of as possible in order to ensure victory against said BA.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Saying BA is fine because of Imperial Knights is like saying DE is fine because of CW Eldar.

To say nothing of Orks.

Eldar are OP. Necrons may be. Nids have some nasty options.
IKs are OP. Adeptus Mechanics may be. Astartes (Vanilla) have some nasty options.

Saying "IoM is OP" or "Xenos are OP" is about the same, and is about as right *and* wrong.

Xenos aren't OP, only very specific equipment that every Xeno player manages to identify and then take as many of as possible in order to ensure victory against said BA.

Not all Xeno players are like that, stop generalising us!

Likewise, all IoM players spam allies and Grav Centurions, Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, Drop Pods and Skitarii.

"Not all Xeno players are like that, stop generalising us! "

All the ones I play are. Don't worry, I don't blame them (you), it's GW's fault for making those options legal.

"all IoM players spam allies"

At least I have the satisfaction that they paid a ton of money to win a game of plastic toy soldiers. I was losing all of 6th to WS models that were over a decade old.

I always thought bringing in WFB style saves (Take both Armour and Ward saves), along with significantly nerfing access to Invuls across the board and doing away with Invisibility would help balance somewhat.
For example:

TEQs become fearsome again, 2+/5++ requires dedicated firepower and gives survivability.
Storm Shield becomes 4++
No Invul can ever be higher then 4++
No such thing as Armour or Invul rerolls

I have never, ever, understood how, for sake of example, A bolter round hits a SM Chapter Master, his AS fails him, and the Iron Halo does nothing. What is this silliness.

Oh, and in this system, Cover becomes a To Hit modifier, because 3 types of saves? I don't think so. Besides that, Jink saves never made sense to me either "AHA! You hit me good sir but! *rolls dice* I was actually over here the whole time! HAHA!"
Jinking being an EVASIVE manoeuvre should confer -1 to hit

FNP is essentially a save... So there will be three saves that a model could take.

This probably should be in the proposed rules section.

The proposed AP3 transition is full of so many problems for the game it isn't even funny, but if you want to fix the bad untis like Terminators with 2+ saves, its easier just to fix them.

Reducing their points cost works.

Or if you are looking for a change in the game add the 1+ Save, its s 2+ armor save that ignores AP2 and only ignored by AP1. Now, you just need to go through the units with a 2+ save and pick which ones deserve it.

 Zagman wrote:
This probably should be in the proposed rules section.

The proposed AP3 transition is full of so many problems for the game it isn't even funny, but if you want to fix the bad untis like Terminators with 2+ saves, its easier just to fix them.

Reducing their points cost works.

Or if you are looking for a change in the game add the 1+ Save, its s 2+ armor save that ignores AP2 and only ignored by AP1. Now, you just need to go through the units with a 2+ save and pick which ones deserve it.

I would pay no more than 30 pts for a terminator. Preferably less, the way the game works now. Yes, they are THAT bad. I voted for tactical terminators as the worst unit in C:BA. A starting point would be 28 pts, since that would put their durability/pt on par with a tactical marine. Even though both are still arguably poor units.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
This probably should be in the proposed rules section.

The proposed AP3 transition is full of so many problems for the game it isn't even funny, but if you want to fix the bad untis like Terminators with 2+ saves, its easier just to fix them.

Reducing their points cost works.

Or if you are looking for a change in the game add the 1+ Save, its s 2+ armor save that ignores AP2 and only ignored by AP1. Now, you just need to go through the units with a 2+ save and pick which ones deserve it.

I would pay no more than 30 pts for a terminator. Preferably less, the way the game works now. Yes, they are THAT bad. I voted for tactical terminators as the worst unit in C:BA. A starting point would be 28 pts, since that would put their durability/pt on par with a tactical marine. Even though both are still arguably poor units.

In my Balance Errata project over in Proposed rules I did this...

Terminator Squad 150pts; 30pts/model
Wargear: Terminator Armor, Stormbolter, Power Sword
Upgrade Powersword to Powerfist: 5pts; Chainfist: 10pts
For every five one may replace Stormbolter for Heavy Flamer: 5pts; Assault Cannon: 15pts; Take a Cyclone Missile Launcher: 20pts, Upgrade Cyclone Missile Launcher to Flakk: 10pts

and this

Terminator Assault Squad: 150pts, 30pts/model
Any Model may Replace Lightning Claws for a Thunderhammer and a Stormshield: 10pts/model

As far as TEQ and AP2 goes, I'm of the opinion that if it ain't heavy or melta, it should never exceed AP3. So that would mean heavy plasma, lascannons, heavy grav, etc would retain the anti-armour AP2 (like they should have), while those small arms such as Plasma guns and the like would be topped out at AP3 to represent their smaller power levels. Also, Rending/Bladestorm should be capped at AP3.