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 Exergy wrote:


The Steel Confessors were created by the AdMech for the Admech but they were not AdMech.

Apparently the AdMech can make space marine chapters, kind of magically with everything they need without any veteran space marines.

Perhaps they do that with traditional foundings as well.

Would kind of make sense why they are stockpiling geneseed of the traitor legions. I suppose so they could create more space marines, again magically, out of their gene seed.

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Well the Lexicanum article (again, by their words, not mine) that the AdMech chooses a bloodline for a Chapter, and then use slaves as a vat and grow gene-seed from them. Besides, the Space Marine Chapters all have to send 5% of gene-seeds to AdMech as a sort of tithe, so it stands to reason the AdMech hold a vast amount of gene-seed in their stasis banks, where the traitor legion gene-seeds are also stored. Given how few founding their had been, I'm inclined to believe that should the HLoT so wish, the AdMech can create entire Chapters using only stock gene-seeds.

Also, the first generation marines can all die, really. Make one thousand of them, give them those fancy armours and guns, and of course, also the bible Codex Astartes. Promote those jocks promising neophytes who had superior physiques or mental capacities, and send them to the wolves. , It's the Spartan Way, makes perfect sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Ok, so how serious does it need to be to have to make an entire new chapter as opposed to sending in some other chapter? It seems to me chaos is the main reason, as they is one of the more insidious enemies, the others can be somewhat beaten off (burn ork corpses, etc). Also, would it be better to buff up current chapters to make them even better, since making a new chapter is expensive, so wouldn't it be cheaper to set up a current chapter with all of that gear and let them expand their horizons even further?

Making a new Chapter, according to Lexicanum, can be due to many reasons. One of the most likely reason is to replace lost Chapters, as it turned out, it happens. The Adeptus Terra no doubt wish to maintain a manageable number of Space Marine Chapters roaming around the galaxy, dealing with or at least react to threats their humongous bureaucracy cannot react to in time. Another reason would be like the Astartes Praeses created and purposefully bond them to areas around the EoT so they increase the Imperium's ability to guard it.

The idea of expanding a chapter is forbidden for a good reason: nothing is safe from corruption, so saturate too much power on a centralized force is asking for another major civil war. The Imperium needs the Space Marine Chapters because they can more easily deal with threats due to how they operate, while having around 1000 marines each Chapters makes them easily picking for a massed concentrated purge initiated by one of the Imperium's top brasses (like an Inquisitor). Your normal Space Marines Chapter generally answers calls from Imperial Worlds and Campaigns, if they are around to receive it (astropathic message is, at best, unreliable). In large conflicts Space Marines still deploy in Chapter or even legion strength by deploying elements from multiple Chapter together. Their effectiveness is not significantly reduced (especially when you consider the fact pre-heresy legions also generally find in a number of companies, only rarely a whole legion, even less so multiple legions), only their ability to rebel and inflict damage to the Imperium is.

The long-term cost of creating a few new Chapters every several centuries is far more preferable to having a significant portion of all Space Marines turn on the Imperium because one of their leaders had a Chaos-induced stroke.

The AdMech is basically required for making Space Marines in most cases, simply because they're really the only ones with the understanding of the medical science involved.

Obviously, some Chapters maintain this skill on their own, having been trained in it at some point in the past (by the AdMech) and then carrying on that tradition of training their Apothecaries to continue it. The Space Wolves come to mind as a Chapter that is capable of doing this... though in every case, whether the AdMech or the Chapter performing the operations, it is noted that it is so steeped in mysticism and tradition that the science, itself, is barely understood.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Ok, so how serious does it need to be to have to make an entire new chapter as opposed to sending in some other chapter? It seems to me chaos is the main reason, as they is one of the more insidious enemies, the others can be somewhat beaten off (burn ork corpses, etc). Also, would it be better to buff up current chapters to make them even better, since making a new chapter is expensive, so wouldn't it be cheaper to set up a current chapter with all of that gear and let them expand their horizons even further?

They do it to make new chapters to deal with stuff EX: the Maelstroms Warders was I think 4 chapters made with the soul purpose of making the Maelstrom a safer place. And as for expanding the other chapters is HERSEY because that's called Legion building and most chapters that will be able to maintain the larger numbers (best) are the one from the first founding and the High Lords of Terra will never allow that to happen because all the original legions swear their loyalty to the emperor and their respective primarchs and they was almost always at odds with the HLoT.

The AdMech is basically required for making Space Marines in most cases, simply because they're really the only ones with the understanding of the medical science involved.

I was under the impression all SM chapter apothocaries have the knowledge and ability to both harvest and grow geneseed and by extension implant to new aspirants?
I cant see many chapters handing that task over the admech who are a completely seperate entity and answerable not to any chapter master.

 VulkanKiller wrote:

They do it to make new chapters to deal with stuff EX: the Maelstroms Warders was I think 4 chapters made with the soul purpose of making the Maelstrom a safer place.

Incorrect. All of the chapters that were members of the Maelstrom Warders were already in existence and performing other duties when they were ordered to settle down and form the Maelstrom Warders.

I was under the impression all SM chapter apothocaries have the knowledge and ability to both harvest and grow geneseed and by extension implant to new aspirants?
I cant see many chapters handing that task over the admech who are a completely seperate entity and answerable not to any chapter master

While we might think of founding a chapter as just repeated implantation, no different from bringing in a new batch of chapter recruits, I can only imagine the process being far more complicated than that. To start, the geneseed being used is stored on Mars, using a method and rituals probably vastly different from any that a chapter uses. There could be many more tests and quality checks, using equipment only the AdMech has available. There may be hundreds of rites, prayers, systematic mistakes followed by systematic corrections that have to be performed.

In short, economy of scale.

Apparently the AdMech can make space marine chapters, kind of magically with everything they need without any veteran space marines.

promote those jockspromising neophytes who had superior physiques or mental capacities, and send them to the wolves

Most militaries you could care to mention separate their officers right at the start. Being a marine and being a marine officer are different jobs, and there is no reason to waste time before training them. It's also often the case that new troops who are expected to become senior officers are usually put in senior officers' units fairly quickly. So it would be weird to say that their own marines couldn't be officers due to not being old enough.

There is also the factor that a new chapter doesn't have any marines that are capable of being generals because chapters don't even have generals. The most senior job there is is one step above company captain, and for a lot of chapters like the Crimson fists and Salamanders, the most senior job actually is a captain. Marine chapters do not start out with or necessarily have their own generals. Carab Culln and Verant Ortys are space marine generals; Dante, Grimnar and Azrael are space marine generals. You don't need to promote a fresh recruit to general, and you don't need to install a general from outside the chapter, because most chapters never have generals. The chapters of the Minotaurs and Carcharodons Astra just don't have them.

Also, would it be better to buff up current chapters to make them even better, since making a new chapter is expensive, so wouldn't it be cheaper to set up a current chapter with all of that gear and let them expand their horizons even further

a chapter is forbidden for a good reason: nothing is safe from corruption, so saturate too much power on a centralized force is asking for another major civil war. The Imperium needs the Space Marine Chapters because they can more easily deal with threats due to how they operate, while having around 1000 marines each Chapters makes them easily picking for a massed concentrated purge initiated by one of the Imperium's top brasses (like an Inquisitor

I think it's not just a size they can destroy, I think it's that after they destroy a chapter they want to still have space marine chapters left over. 1000 marines is the minimum size they could have as far as being self sufficient on things like ammunition manufacturing, apothecary training, librarian training, space ship maintenance, officer training. It would be bad if chapters were only one marine each and one ship each, and they had an ammunition factory following him around making 300 bolt rounds a day and a maintenance facility with nothing to do 60% of the time. They have to be as small as they can be though so that if one of them gets purged it doesn't leave too much of a gap.

I think that even though corruption is the reason given in the codex, 1000 is actually the maximum size before the individual marines start being less effective. It's all about behavior.

Marines are fraternal orders, a lot of how good they are comes from their social habits. Historically, the number of people that humans can consider their friends and family is about 114. It's about the size of a space marine company, but it's also the number of people who wandered the savannah together for thousands of years in prehistory. This means people they work with every day in a squad, people they consider their peers, their mentors, their friends in other units, their friends' mentors, their protégés, their mentors' friends, and their leadership or patriarchal figures. This goes way back to human and hominid evolution, this company of 100. It's important for the way marines fight because it's who they fight and die for. The company is the smallest denomination of group identity for marines, that's why they have their own standards and colors. Squads do not count, in the same way that while the U.S. and Great Britain are composed by groups of states or nations, nobody would say that Virginia or Scotland are federations of the towns that are inside them. The company is the smallest unit, and one that each marine is loyal to, which makes him more effective. The chapter gets its size from the ability of a marine to project his own company onto other companies, to imagine another company has a version of himself and of his squad and his friends and mentors. He can do this for nine other companies, but more than that will stretch his credulity. A chapter has to be 1000 marines because that size extracts higher performance out of individual marines while making available to them adequate resources. If there were fewer than a thousand then the resources would suffer, and if there were more than a thousand than individual performance would suffer.

jareddm wrote:

I was under the impression all SM chapter apothocaries have the knowledge and ability to both harvest and grow geneseed and by extension implant to new aspirants?
I cant see many chapters handing that task over the admech who are a completely seperate entity and answerable not to any chapter master

While we might think of founding a chapter as just repeated implantation, no different from bringing in a new batch of chapter recruits, I can only imagine the process being far more complicated than that. To start, the geneseed being used is stored on Mars, using a method and rituals probably vastly different from any that a chapter uses. There could be many more tests and quality checks, using equipment only the AdMech has available. There may be hundreds of rites, prayers, systematic mistakes followed by systematic corrections that have to be performed.

I think he was referencing the Apothocaries making new marines for their OWN chapter, not founding new ones, but I could be wrong.

pelicaniforce wrote:

I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere too, though I can't remember where right now. Possibly the fluff that comes with the BRB

The problem is it isn't in the BRB. The place you read it has to be on a forum. It seemed like it makes sense and the person who posted it acted like it were true, so here you are. It's like all the spiders that crawl into your mouth while you sleep. it doesn't exist, but it sounds plausible.

Unless you have a better idea as to how it happens or a source that says exactly what happens, the best we have to officially go on is; The High Lords order one made, thus appears magically with everything it needs. The fan theories are the best we have to go on, and even then it all likely varies wildly

Getting officers from another chapter still would mean they appear magically with 1000 suits of armor, a fleet, millions of serfs and servitors, and all the machine oil they need, unless the senior chapter really have that much extra materiel. I think they get those things from the same places they'll get them for the rest of their existences.

My theory is this: the chapter get 1000 sets of gene seed from the tech priests, and all of the officers come from there.

I think that getting donated officers, on the assumption they are the competent ones, doesn't supply enough officers, and it would definitely be better to have more officers than a chapter could donate. The Librarian is an example. The post says maybe one, or we could also say two or three. That librarian has to set up all the librarius facilities including armory, training areas, communications, and archives, he has to procure all the special psychic equipment, and he has to train the actual librarians. If he trains the actual librarians, there will be problems covering all the areas enough because he can't be expert in everything, trouble paying enough attention to all the students, and lots of trouble if he happens to die and there are half-trained librarians left. I think it is better for the new chapter to be part of a marine crusade, so they can see multiple other chapters' facilities and protocols.

I think that new chapters should be part of marine crusades because that way the brand new officers can fight without having to risk important decisions. It seems like the fan theory is mostly to solve for the idea that new marines would be bad officers, but that is not really true. Marines should become officers very quickly or not at all. Serving in a tactical squad for a long time only makes a marine good at being in a tactical squad. Being an officer is a different job, and to ever become good enough at it to be a captain or chapter master a marine would have to start right away. By serving as support for captains from other chapters, who themselves are commanded by a senior chapter master like Dante, a brand new chapter's officers will have a better education than serving under only a dozen donated officers and otherwise let loose to make big decisions.

New chapters might also learn by serving in crusade forces because actually a transfer of personnel is not the way it usually happens in history. A younger or smaller military will have joint training exercises with a world power, and will send some individual officers to foreign military academies, but it is not usual for a country to transfer its own mid level officers to command another country's military.

I think that new chapters train as part of crusade forces instead of having donated officers because it contravenes the second
founding. The purpose of the second founding and the codex reforms mean that donated officers are illegal. It is clearly acceptable for a single individual to command many thousands of marines in a war, because so many chapters were commanded by Logan Grimnar at the thirteenth black crusade and by Commander Dante at Armageddon II. What the second founding made impossible was that if Dante should become corrupt, he has no way to fire Seth from commanding the Flesh Tearers and then put a corrupt Flesh Tearer or corrupt Blood Angel in charge of the Flesh Tearers.

A chapter master could still be corrupted by working with other chapters, but it less of a risk than letting Kranon or Huron choose any member of his honor guard to be in charge of a successor.

I think a lot of the sources are pretty clear that every single chapter has its own gene seed. The members of a chapter all have to come biologically from that chapter, and it's not enough to come from a related chapter that has the same Primarch.

I read in my book, death of integrity that when the novamarines chapter was founded from ultramarine they used a former ultramarine captain as the new chapter master

 silver_eyes wrote:

I read in my book, death of integrity that when the novamarines chapter was founded from ultramarine they used a former ultramarine captain as the new chapter master

Novamarines are not relevant because, as a 2nd founding chapter, they were simply split off and reorganized from the legions. No other founding operates in that manner.

Depends on the specifics of the Founding and of the new Chapters being created. There is, roughly speaking, 1000 Chapters of 1000 Marines in existence at any one time. If some cataclysmic war causes the destruction of 10 of those Chapters, the HLoT might declare a new Founding and have 10 more Chapters created to replace them.

In this event, they may go to the Chapter Masters of those whose geneseed will be used to create the new Marines to get some "seed veterans" and wargear. So, let's say it's a new UM Successor. The HLoT go to Calgar and say, "Marneus, look, we're bringing up some new UM Successors. The new kids are going to need some vets to show them the ropes and lead them around for the first few centuries. Got anyone looking for a promotion?"

Calgar turns to his First Company and says, "Ok, Bob, Greg, Chris, Tom, Richard... congratulations! You've just been made Chapter Masters of these new Chapters. Get your gear and move out."

So the Marines selected get their stuff and go to wherever the new Chapters are going to be. In this case, the UM also send along a couple relics, some bolters, maybe a few Rhinos or Land Raiders, whatever. Some "welcome to the family" gifts and, more importantly, some blooded leadership that can guide the new Chapter along in its early stages, until the new Marines have the experience to take the reins of leadership themselves.

Often, the Company Commanders (as well as the Chapter Master) will be veterans from the parent Chapter, while the Sergeants will be the most-promising of the new Marines. Over time, as casualties and time take their toll, these "new" Marines will move up into the leadership positions that were once filled by Marines from their parent Chapter. This, of course, might take centuries, but that's intended by design.

It's weird, because that is fake and unsubstantiated, and also because it is posted a bunch of times in this thread, when it was also not correct. So I don't understand how it would be a good thing that it is always being posted, somewhere on the internet.

So for the benefit of people who only read this post and the post immediately before this post, which is apparently something that happens, that thing about Bob, Greg, and Chris is a lie, and so is the rest of the substance of the same post. Maybe someone will post below this post to say that this post calling the previous post a fabrication is itself a lie. Maybe all the posts are deliberately deceptive, or maybe they are lies told not to deceive, but for a far more sinister purpose, which must be the actual problem, instead of the idea itself just being wrong.

Maybe there is a greater purpose, or some alternate modality of deliberate farce about the repetitive incorrect posts that there are metonymous Bobs, Gregs, and Chrises, but the literal, plain reading of the content contradicts most of the important books about warhammer.

It contradicts the first appearance of the space marines we know today with progenoids, which was written by effectively the creator of space marines, and called the Origin of the Legiones Astartes.

It contradicts the Codex Ultramarines,

and it contradicts Index Astartes articles and Chapter Approved, like the dark founding article and the Codex Astartes article, which are pretty foundational and probably the main things to trust.

It also has been repeated on the internet continuously with really no substantiation for about a decade and a half, so it's kind of like something your grandmother emails you that was actually an Onion article that someone took seriously.

There could be some reason to keep posting it, like maybe it is a multi-level marketing scheme like the It Works weight loss bands. Maybe it is the original, proto-pyramid scheme that has written itself into human culture the way that language did in Snow Crash.

Maybe it is a memetic worm that will allow mind control aliens to take over the Federation one day, after Star Trek happens.

So there are all kinds of possible reasons for posting that for the third time in a two page thread, without reference to the previous times. It's just that none of those possible reasons for posting it involves transmitting correct information. That would not be one of the possible reasons. All the reasons for posting that have to start with repetitively posting an untruth. It's then open to speculation as to why that would happen.

But the thing that makes a marine part of a chapter is his biology, and all the chapters are biologically separate, even the ones from the same primarch. The space marine codex says that. You can mail me one, and I'll find it for you. You'd have to mail it though, but I'd prefer if you didn't.

Then how do you explain the Successors of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines carrying on the legacies of their Parent Chapter? You think the DA are just going to spin off some Successors without having a way to keep an eye on them, looking for Fallen, evidence of the Fallen, signs of the Fallen, influence of the Fallen? Please... that isn't how the DA function. Ultra-adherence to the Codex: Astartes as a genetic trait? Please. The UM genetic imprint predates the existence of the book.

It's not like there's an internet where the kids in the new Chapter can look it up. Someone from the Dark Angels is going to need to be there, with the new kids, and say "Here's what's up". Same with the Ultramarines. You don't get ultra-Codex adherent just by hearing about it. It has to be part of your training doctrine from Day 1. How are you going to get that doctrine? By having someone who already lives and breathes it teach it. Which means veterans from the parent Chapter. What, is the AdMech in the labs going to teach it? Hardly. The AdMech is some pencil-necked scientist (possibly literally so), not a warrior with centuries of experience in the Emperor's service. Are they going to hypno-indoctrinate the recruits with it? Maybe... but, then, where are they getting the initial memories to implant? Who's providing them the combat doctrine to put into whatever devices are used to perform the hypno-indoctrination process?

What, beyond genetic bonds, ties the Successors to their parent Chapters? Shared history, lineage of command, relics, oaths sworn and upheld, all that sort of thing. This implies that knowing that this other guy in green/blue/black/whatever is someone that you should know and respect, beyond the fact that he's a Space Marine, and that his words are important. Maybe he looks like an older version of you, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he looks a little like the father you barely remember, or perhaps he doesn't, but you know (perhaps without being told) that you share a genetic legacy with this guy.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then how do you explain the Successors of the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines carrying on the legacies of their Parent Chapter? You think the DA are just going to spin off some Successors without having a way to keep an eye on them, looking for Fallen, evidence of the Fallen, signs of the Fallen, influence of the Fallen? Please... that isn't how the DA function. Ultra-adherence to the Codex: Astartes as a genetic trait? Please. The UM genetic imprint predates the existence of the book.

It's not like there's an internet where the kids in the new Chapter can look it up. Someone from the Dark Angels is going to need to be there, with the new kids, and say "Here's what's up". Same with the Ultramarines. You don't get ultra-Codex adherent just by hearing about it. It has to be part of your training doctrine from Day 1. How are you going to get that doctrine? By having someone who already lives and breathes it teach it. Which means veterans from the parent Chapter. What, is the AdMech in the labs going to teach it? Hardly. The AdMech is some pencil-necked scientist (possibly literally so), not a warrior with centuries of experience in the Emperor's service. Are they going to hypno-indoctrinate the recruits with it? Maybe... but, then, where are they getting the initial memories to implant? Who's providing them the combat doctrine to put into whatever devices are used to perform the hypno-indoctrination process?

What, beyond genetic bonds, ties the Successors to their parent Chapters? Shared history, lineage of command, relics, oaths sworn and upheld, all that sort of thing. This implies that knowing that this other guy in green/blue/black/whatever is someone that you should know and respect, beyond the fact that he's a Space Marine, and that his words are important. Maybe he looks like an older version of you, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he looks a little like the father you barely remember, or perhaps he doesn't, but you know (perhaps without being told) that you share a genetic legacy with this guy.

There is a very real difference between the successors of the 1st founding chapters created in the 2nd founding, when the Legions were broken up into smaller chapters and the more recent foundings. The later foundings are just made to order chapters that all follow the codex. It doesnt really matter what their geneseed is. That doesnt fully determine their character.

How they deal with the flaws in their gene seed might become a bond. I can imagine the BA keep track of all the BA successors and reach out to them when they are created “Hey so at some point some of your older marines are gonna go batsh!t crazy, we advise not telling the Inquistion about it.” But no, just having the same gene seed as DA doesnt mean you are going to inheret the legacy of the fallen.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Experience has shown that the longer a progenoid is in the Marine, however, the higher quality the geneseed is

This is another one of those fan-theories toted about like it's the gospel truth. The source material states that Progenoids are mature and ready to harvest at five and ten years, full stop.

Everything else is fan theory to explain why dead marines have progenoid glands to collect. There is a disconnect between Apothecaries harvesting the fallen and the simple fact that Progenoid Glands are ready to harvest at five and ten years but any explanation is fan theory and should be presented as such.

the reason it is the first organ to be implanted

The Progenoid Glands are the Phase 18 implants, the last to go in before the Black Carapace.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Snip

This makes a great deal of sense with what we are actually told in the source material.

My own idea, which I have talked about before is that all Tithed Gene-Seed goes to Mars. This logically means that when a Founding is decreed all the Gene-Seed for the various new Chapters, is created on Mars and since this requires human Test-Slaves then we can confidently conclude that Mars has adequate access to thousands of genetically compatible humans, most of which are simply organ farms but it also stands to reason that they can gather all the necessary recruits for the Chapter.

We also know that Mechanicus have the ability to create all of the materiel that a new Chapter needs and we see one of their ships being ransacked in the Tome of Fire trilogy by the Marines Malevolent, filled with brand new Power Armour, Boltguns et cetera.

We also know that all psychic recruits for any Chapter come from Terra, picked out for their suitability as Astartes candidates by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. That means that the Mechanicus, in the Sol System, have the means to produce, arms, armour, ships and ordinary and psychic recruits. There is also the presence of the Grey Knights, should any of these Chapters become dangerous, they can be quickly destroyed.

This does not answer how they are trained though. We do however have the Death Watch as a template from which it is conceivable that Chapters can loan experienced Astartes to train these new Chapters and just as how a Chapter trains its own Marines the same thing happens with Foundling Chapters, where each Chapter is akin to a Reserve Company.

We do not know how long this process takes. We only have the fifty-five year term for how long it takes to culture a Chapter's worth of gene-seed. There is no mention in how long it takes to actually train and form a new Chapter. We also know from Deathwatch: Rites of Battle that part of this creation process, involves sourcing suitable home worlds, constructing a Fortress Monastery, testing the local inhabitants for genetic suitability et cetera. This could be a process that is continuously ongoing, with new Chapters being created and trained in the Sol System at all times, providing the Sol System with potentially thousands of Astartes to defend it from attack.

The idea of these Chapters being sent on Crusade is the end point in the cycle where the Chapters are finally sent out to do something. After the Crusade is complete the Chapters are given a name, number and colour scheme and then sent off to do whatever the High Lords need them to do at that time.

The only instance in source material that I am aware of that offers some support for the 'Cadre Theory' is Imperal Armour IX in the Novamarines section under their Known Descendants it says, 'None officially listed but they are known to have had the honour of their Brethren selected to aid the Founding of several Ultramarines gene-seed successor Chapters in the past, notably the Dark Sons and Angels of Fury.' The salient word there being 'aid' and not a Cadre of officers that went on to command the Chapters forever more; it doesn't even say that the Novamarines provided gene-seed for these Chapters, only that they aided in the Founding of them which could mean almost anything. This could then equally support my own theory that Chapters loan out officers to help and then they return to their parent Chapter after a set period.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then how do you explain...

Not all successors are like the parent Chapter or have any association with them. The Mortifactors are Ultramarines successors and are nothing like them, the Silver Skulls claim to be Ultramarine successors but all records are lost and these are fairly typical examples where there is very little evidence to support the direct interference of 'parent' Chapters, something which goes against the very premise of Chapters as individual bodies of warriors as set down in the Codex Astartes. How can a Chapter be truly independent if its leadership come from another Chapter? This is even more ridiculous if you are going to say that a newly founded Chapter is fall of raw, green recruits, who are then comprehensively indoctrinated to emulate the Chapter their leaders have come from, this is Legion by the back door.

It is quite clear from the source material that Successors are book-learned on the culture and ideals of the parent Chapter, particularly with the Ultramarines, whose Successors are so proud to trace their heritage to Roboute Guilliman that they seek to emulate the Ultramarines as closely as possible, this does not require an actual Ultramarine to dictate this culture.

 Gogsnik wrote:
This is another one of those fan-theories toted about like it's the gospel truth. The source material states that Progenoids are mature and ready to harvest at five and ten years, full stop.

Everything else is fan theory to explain why dead marines have progenoid glands to collect. There is a disconnect between Apothecaries harvesting the fallen and the simple fact that Progenoid Glands are ready to harvest at five and ten years but any explanation is fan theory and should be presented as such.

the reason it is the first organ to be implanted

The Progenoid Glands are the Phase 18 implants, the last to go in before the Black Carapace.

What is not a fan theory is Apothecary Ezrachi of the Excoriators removing the 10-year mature progenoids from marines, prior to a suicidal mission on the order of his commander, despite the loud protests of those whose progenoid is being removed. This shows that the second progenoid can be removed while a marine is still alive, given adequate surgical facilities and equipment and that the act of doing so is seen as taboo. Hence why the vast majority of marines still have theirs when they die. The fan theory is a way of explaining why that taboo exists because most of us aren't satisfied with, "It's because GW is stupid lol!"

From the excerpt of the book Dark Hunters: Umbra Sumus by Paul Kearney which currently has been pulled due to a potential nameing issue of the book, has a comment in it about things being passed along "He brought up the memory of the Ogadai, the vast starship which had been laid down before the Dark Hunters themselves had been founded. In its youth it had been part of the battle fleet of the White Scars Chapter."

Also the short story The Blind King also by Paul Kearney refering to the Dark Hunters once more has this memory in it, "I remember the days after the Founding, when we exchanged White Scars livery for the dark of hunter blue. I remember Captain Angnar taking the axe from Mordonai Khan of the Scars at Quan Zhou, the axe which Jaghatai himself had once used: double-headed, millennia old, and still crackling with blue flame as Agnar raised it in the sunlight, a gift worty of grate heroes. We took it as our badge, the twice-bladed symbol of vengance and justice. We became reborn as the Dark Hunters, even as we bore still the honour scars of Chogoris. We were one company then, Ninety-eight Adeptus Astartes of the White Scars Legion. I remember it like it was yesterday, though it was almost three centuries ago now. One company, destined to become a Chapter, to seek out a home in the void and continue the work of those millions who had gone into the dark before us."

The Dark Hunters chapter was founded in M37 I believe, so they belong to a founding other than the 2nd. Now if we accept black library publications as cannon, then here is my cannon examples of a chapter being founded using members of their founding chapter to form the core of the new chapter, and being gifted items from their founding chapter to begin their new journey. *drops mic and walks away*

Noc

Not all successors are like the parent Chapter or have any association with them.

It doesn't require all Successors to match their Parent, simply enough to be considered a normal theme. In fact, Chapters that deviate significantly from their Parent seem to be considered rather unusual, which is probably why a lot of the most-oddball Third-and-later Founding Chapters are of unknown, or chimeric, geneseed. There's a good number of "canon" Chapters that fit this profile, of course, though in almost every case it's noted that such a status is "unusual" or "surprising" (to whom it is surprising is not revealed, of course).

Further, if there's no aid given from a Parent Chapter... even if the Chapter so sending aid is not, in fact, the source of their geneseed, when you're done with the process of creating 1000 Space Marines on Mars, what you have now is a whole lot of Scout Marines, surrounded by a bunch of AdMech Priests who don't know the first thing about the Codex Astartes.

Who trains these Marines? Who acts as Sergeants, Captains, the Chapter Master? Who's their Chief Apothecary? Who's their Chief Librarian? Who's showing these young pups the ins and outs of their jobs as Space Marines?

Are they going to promote some 19 year old kid right off the surgical table to Chapter Master? Some guy who *might* have a handful of kills under his belt from whatever backwater Feral World he comes from? Yeah, right. That's a disaster just *waiting* to happen.

The resources of the Imperium are vast, but they don't just throw Marines away in the normal course of business. The costs involved in founding and maintaining a Space Marine Chapter are considered too high to waste in such actions. You're not going to send 1000 barely-trained (as Space Marines go) teenagers on some Crusade without oversight from veterans and a functional, experienced command staff to provide direction and leadership.

This is why you need some vets from somewhere, and the ideal source will be the First Founding Chapter that originates their geneseed. First because, duh, geneseed compatibility and recognition of any inherent flaws or limitations ("Ok, kids, you're reaching an age where you're going to undergo some... changes. I mean, you're gonna grow fangs and suddenly be really good at poetry.") and, secondly, to help them shape what's written in the Codex Astartes into practical battlefield application. Third, of course, is going to be to teach them about their Primarch and all that sort of thing (in applicable cases) as a part of the history of their line.

 Psienesis wrote:


Further, if there's no aid given from a Parent Chapter... even if the Chapter so sending aid is not, in fact, the source of their geneseed, when you're done with the process of creating 1000 Space Marines on Mars, what you have now is a whole lot of Scout Marines, surrounded by a bunch of AdMech Priests who don't know the first thing about the Codex Astartes.

Who trains these Marines? Who acts as Sergeants, Captains, the Chapter Master? Who's their Chief Apothecary? Who's their Chief Librarian? Who's showing these young pups the ins and outs of their jobs as Space Marines?

And yet that is exactly what the Ad Mech did with the steel confessors. They created them and indoctrinated them into their own use, but following the Codex Astartes. Clearly the admech are capable of creating capable SM chapters without the need of any veteran space marines.

 Psienesis wrote:

The resources of the Imperium are vast, but they don't just throw Marines away in the normal course of business. The costs involved in founding and maintaining a Space Marine Chapter are considered too high to waste in such actions. You're not going to send 1000 barely-trained (as Space Marines go) teenagers on some Crusade without oversight from veterans and a functional, experienced command staff to provide direction and leadership.

Are they going to promote some 19 year old kid right off the surgical table to Chapter Master? Some guy who *might* have a handful of kills under his belt from whatever backwater Feral World he comes from? Yeah, right. That's a disaster just *waiting* to happen

Look at how we create new military units today. The grunts go to basic training, the officers go to OSS. They dont get mixed in with veterans.(that process is used to get depleted units back up to strength).



If you were going to go about creating 1000 marines. You would create 10 first, make sure you got the gene seed right. You would then go about creating the next 100 while the first ten go to the IoM version of OSS. Then the first 100 might be ready for small opperations, working in conjunction with other SM chapters or IG while the next batches of 100 are being created until you get to 1000.

1000 sm is apparently a lot. The IoM doesnt have a factory that can make 1000 SM at the same time, rather in a new chapter, some of the new SM will have been enhanced longer and have time to study longer to end up acting as leaders/specialists.

Look at how we create new military units today. The grunts go to basic training, the officers go to OSS. They dont get mixed in with veterans.(that process is used to get depleted units back up to strength).

Army Basic Training is performed by Infantry Regiments, with the trainees lead by Drill Sergeants who are, by virtue of their rank, veterans. They don't take a hundred recruits, throw rifles at them and say "Here's a field manual and an instructional video, you'll figure it out!". Every single soldier in the US Army is, at his/her most basic level, an infantry soldier, and is trained, at every step of their career, by more-experienced, veteran soldiers.

The grunts all go to Basic Training. Once they pass this course, they are unlikely to ever see any of their fellow trainees again. From Basic they go to AIT, where they learn their Military Occupational Specialty, again being taught by both Infantry veterans as well as veterans of the same Corps as their MOS belongs to. At the completion of this training, they then receive orders to report to their first duty station, and are from there assigned to a unit command, which is when they will first truly report to some kind of commissioned officer and interact with them on an more-frequent basis.

Of course, commissioned officers have been around at every step of their training thus far, but the average recruit's interaction with them is fairly limited. It's the Drill Sergeant, and whoever is appointed squad leader (which is done at random) that will be their primary leader through Basic and AIT.

If you were going to go about creating 1000 marines. You would create 10 first, make sure you got the gene seed right. You would then go about creating the next 100 while the first ten go to the IoM version of OSS. Then the first 100 might be ready for small opperations, working in conjunction with other SM chapters or IG while the next batches of 100 are being created until you get to 1000.

1000 sm is apparently a lot. The IoM doesnt have a factory that can make 1000 SM at the same time, rather in a new chapter, some of the new SM will have been enhanced longer and have time to study longer to end up acting as leaders/specialists.

Source? Or are you just making assumptions and filling in the blanks like I am?

From what I understand, they start with a single set of geneseeds and implant those into one test-slave. Once those mature, they implant the results into two, and then continue on thusly, with the available progenoids doubling each time, until they have 1000+ sets of viable progenoids and the associated organs. This part takes like 50 years. Then they start implanting, once they have the pool of recruits available (which is probably the easiest part of the whole deal). At the end of the implanting, now you've got 1000 brand-new Space Marines... and now you gotta train 'em.

Not sure what level of cannon the Space Marine Battle Novels are but for the Battle of The Fang it states that the Wolf Brothers were to have been a successor chapter for the Space Wolves, and were given a home world, half of the fleet, half of the armories and again half of priests. and gave a name fr the SW who was to have been heir chapter master, but not his rank prior to elevation the Chapter master. They were to have been the first of many successors with the goal of encircling the eye of terror to prevent any forces of chaos from ever daring to enter real space again. There was no direct mention about who ordered the creation of the Wolf Brothers.

 Gogsnik wrote:

This makes a great deal of sense with what we are actually told in the source material.

My own idea, which I have talked about before is that all Tithed Gene-Seed goes to Mars. This logically means that when a Founding is decreed all the Gene-Seed for the various new Chapters, is created on Mars and since this requires human Test-Slaves then we can confidently conclude that Mars has adequate access to thousands of genetically compatible humans, most of which are simply organ farms but it also stands to reason that they can gather all the necessary recruits for the Chapter.

We also know that Mechanicus have the ability to create all of the materiel that a new Chapter needs and we see one of their ships being ransacked in the Tome of Fire trilogy by the Marines Malevolent, filled with brand new Power Armour, Boltguns et cetera.

We also know that all psychic recruits for any Chapter come from Terra, picked out for their suitability as Astartes candidates by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. That means that the Mechanicus, in the Sol System, have the means to produce, arms, armour, ships and ordinary and psychic recruits. There is also the presence of the Grey Knights, should any of these Chapters become dangerous, they can be quickly destroyed.

This does not answer how they are trained though. We do however have the Death Watch as a template from which it is conceivable that Chapters can loan experienced Astartes to train these new Chapters and just as how a Chapter trains its own Marines the same thing happens with Foundling Chapters, where each Chapter is akin to a Reserve Company.

We do not know how long this process takes. We only have the fifty-five year term for how long it takes to culture a Chapter's worth of gene-seed. There is no mention in how long it takes to actually train and form a new Chapter. We also know from Deathwatch: Rites of Battle that part of this creation process, involves sourcing suitable home worlds, constructing a Fortress Monastery, testing the local inhabitants for genetic suitability et cetera. This could be a process that is continuously ongoing, with new Chapters being created and trained in the Sol System at all times, providing the Sol System with potentially thousands of Astartes to defend it from attack.

The idea of these Chapters being sent on Crusade is the end point in the cycle where the Chapters are finally sent out to do something. After the Crusade is complete the Chapters are given a name, number and colour scheme and then sent off to do whatever the High Lords need them to do at that time.

The only instance in source material that I am aware of that offers some support for the 'Cadre Theory' is Imperal Armour IX in the Novamarines section under their Known Descendants it says, 'None officially listed but they are known to have had the honour of their Brethren selected to aid the Founding of several Ultramarines gene-seed successor Chapters in the past, notably the Dark Sons and Angels of Fury.' The salient word there being 'aid' and not a Cadre of officers that went on to command the Chapters forever more; it doesn't even say that the Novamarines provided gene-seed for these Chapters, only that they aided in the Founding of them which could mean almost anything. This could then equally support my own theory that Chapters loan out officers to help and then they return to their parent Chapter after a set period.

It definitely supports your theory about loaning marines. New chapters don't need someone else to be in charge, they need trainers in technical skills, like squad tactics, marksmanship, air drops, zero-gravity ops, ground-to-air fighting, etcetera. It's in a codex that any chapter, new or otherwise, will train in skills like this with other chapters. Marines from many chapters serve as pilots with the Hawk Lords chapter to improve their skills. Telion puts on workshops at other chapters' scout companies. These are normal, full strength chapters that are taking training from other chapters. Of course a chapter that is brand new and doesn't know anything would need this. They could definitely use some trainers that are full time.

I also think that a good teaching tool is having available full squads from other chapters of combat operational marines, who can demonstrate those technical skills in the field. You can have full time trainers in specific skills for a new chapter, for example from the Novamarines, or Telion, or the Hawk Lords, and you can also put that new chapter in the field alongside other units to see how to apply those skills and to have backup when they are trying them out themselves. That's how it works in any other area.

there is very little evidence to support the direct interference of 'parent' Chapters, something which goes against the very premise of Chapters as individual bodies of warriors as set down in the Codex Astartes. How can a Chapter be truly independent if its leadership come from another Chapter? This is even more ridiculous if you are going to say that a newly founded Chapter is fall of raw, green recruits, who are then comprehensively indoctrinated to emulate the Chapter their leaders have come from, this is Legion by the back door.

This is so true. It's pretty clear from the flight of the Eisenstein that any time there was an important unit or important engagement, the traitor primarchs put the marines that were corrupt in charge, and any marines they didn't trust just didn't get promoted. That's why the second founding happened.

Nocturus wrote:
From the excerpt of the book Dark Hunters: Umbra Sumus by Paul Kearney which currently has been pulled due to a potential nameing issue of the book, has a comment in it about things being passed along "He brought up the memory of the Ogadai, the vast starship which had been laid down before the Dark Hunters themselves had been founded. In its youth it had been part of the battle fleet of the White Scars Chapter."

The Dark Hunters chapter was founded in M37 I believe, so they belong to a founding other than the 2nd. Now if we accept black library publications as cannon, then here is my cannon examples of a chapter being founded using members of their founding chapter to form the core of the new chapter, and being gifted items from their founding chapter to begin their new journey. *drops mic and walks away*

Noc

Origins of the Legiones says it doesn't happen that way, and Codex Ultramarines says it doesn't happen this way. Your pulled novel says one thing, but it doesn't agree with other sources, so it is not really conclusive, and you have to decide which one is correct. On that issue, as far as I know, Paul Kearney might spell it "cannon" too, even if he isn't getting burned by autocorrect.

 Exergy wrote:

If you were going to go about creating 1000 marines. You would create 10 first, make sure you got the gene seed right. You would then go about creating the next 100 while the first ten go to the IoM version of OSS. Then the first 100 might be ready for small opperations, working in conjunction with other SM chapters or IG while the next batches of 100 are being created until you get to 1000.

1000 sm is apparently a lot. The IoM doesnt have a factory that can make 1000 SM at the same time, rather in a new chapter, some of the new SM will have been enhanced longer and have time to study longer to end up acting as leaders/specialists.

That isn't in any quotable source though. They likely have the ability to do it all at once, and it seems like it would be a much better idea to pick from a thousand than from ten.

10 random marines probably are not a good way to build officers or build a chapter. It seems like they'd be much higher quality if they had a thousand marines, and used the ten best of those.

You know they have 1000 slave-grown sets of gene seed, which came from 500+ slaves. If they can find 800 compatible test-slaves for each of the 18 - 40 or so chapters in a founding, they should be able to find another 1000 for each chapter.

 Psienesis wrote:
Then how do you explain the Successors of the Dark Angels and the

No, this already doesn't work. Your plan is not unique in solving the problem. You claim there is a problem, you claim your plan solves the problem, and you claim that since you can't think of any other plans to solve the problem, your plan must be correct because it solves a problem you claim exists. You have a plan that is a completely off the cuff fan theory that is inconsistent with the original source for the concept of foundings, and that predates any material you could use to substantiate it.

So even supposing that there is a problem in need of explanation, the fact that you have thought of only one plan does not mean the plan is correct. How do they learn about the Fallen and the Deathwing etc? Krishna does. The Squats do. The Grey Knights do. The Flying Spaghetti Monster. The Dark Angels do, but they stay Dark Angels. All of these things solve the problem you claim exists, and the Grey Knights or Dark Angels Who Stay Dark Angels are the only ones capable of solving the problem, unlike your plan, because the Origins of the Legiones Astartes, the Codex Ultramarines, and Index Astartes say that the space marines in a chapter all have gene seed grown from a single original gene seed, and that no marine from one chapter can have a rank in another chapter, which means that your plan to solve this problem cannot exist.

However, you are wrong that the problem even exists.

You think the DA are just going to spin off some Successors without having a way to keep an eye on them, looking for Fallen, evidence of the Fallen, signs of the Fallen, influence of the Fallen? Please... that isn't how the DA function.

No, I don't think the Dark Angels are going to spin off some "Successors." The Adeptus Mechanicus build successors. The Dark Angels don't have anything to do with founding new chapters after M31. As a matter of fact, they once did have something to do with the founding of a chapter, the Disciples of Caliban. This involvement is described as startling and completely unprecedented, and it happened in M37, thousands of years after the third founding. The involvement they had also consisted of requesting of the High Lords that the Adeptus Mechanicus found a chapter using ta specific type of gene seed. It turns out that the Dark Angels chapter having any involvement at all with the founding of a chapter has only happened once in 24 foundings.

 Psienesis wrote:
when you're done with the process of creating 1000 Space Marines on Mars, what you have now is a whole lot of Scout Marines, surrounded by a bunch of AdMech Priests who don't know the first thing about the Codex Astartes.

Who trains these Marines? Who acts as Sergeants, Captains, the Chapter Master? Who's their Chief Apothecary? Who's their Chief Librarian? Who's showing these young pups the ins and outs of their jobs as Space Marines?

Are they going to promote some 19 year old kid right off the surgical table to Chapter Master? Some guy who *might* have a handful of kills under his belt from whatever backwater Feral World he comes from? Yeah, right. That's a disaster just *waiting* to happen.

Yes, they should promote that 19 year old, and you have very bad criteria for making that evaluation. It can easily be inferred from codex background and from white dwarf background that a 19 year old kid right off the surgical table would be acceptable as an initial chapter master. You actually said it yourself, right there in the first line of the quote. When you're done with process of creating 1000 Space Marines on Mars, what you have now is a whole lot of Scout Marines. A chapter that of entirely scouts are very strong but they are not capable of fighting as a space marine chapter, even if they have Roboute Guilliman for a chapter master - according to Origins of the Legiones and Rites of Initiation, if you don't have the black carapace you are not a space marine. You have one thousand scouts, and so the chapter can only do things that scout companies do. This is something a 19 year old marine can be in charge of.

Scout companies, according to the codexes, support strike forces based around battle companies, veterans, and reserves. Since they do not have their own battle companies, veterans, or reserves, and the cadre theory does not involve the import of an entire battle company, they have no other option than to support strike forces of battle companies and veterans from other chapters. That's why you can have a 19 year old chapter master and 19 year old officers. In this arrangement, where the new chapter is supporting the strike force of another chapter, the neophyte officers are intensely junior and subordinate to many other officers. They will have experienced supervision, and are able to command troops while taking instruction from and observing the examples of many officers commanding competent troops, much more to their benefit than if they were not able to start on an officer track at the onset of their career and were able to watch only a few imported cadre officers who were commanding unreliable troops. The chapter master has one primary job in this case, which is preserving his chapter's welfare, with respect both to the other learning from other chapters and removing them from the crusade if they are issued treacherous orders. The Chapter Master must be a 19 year old.

 Psienesis wrote:
Snip

Apologies for my late reply, internet went down.



Anyhoo, I have mentioned this before but it's worth repeating: we do not know how old the Marines of a newly founded Chapter are.

The process of creating the Chapter, at least up to the point of any potential recruits being implanted (making the gene-seed, materiel, finding a homeworld, testing possible recruitment sources for the future et cetera), at least up to that point, takes decades or even centuries (see Deathwatch: Rites of Battle page 13). After all other considerations have been met it is likely to be 'at least a century' (D: RoB pg14) before the new Chapters take to the field.

Potentially this would mean that any 'new' Chapter could be several centuries old before it is formally sent off to do whatever it is the High Lords want it to do. This means that all 'new' Chapters are exactly that, a fully autonomous, self-regulating Chapter and not just one thousand scouts barely out of their twenties.

As to the matter of training, it is simply not true that Astartes can only be trained or trained properly by other Astartes; how were the Legions trained prior to the Great Crusade otherwise? They were not trained by other Astartes because they were the first. They were not trained by the Thunder Warriors because they (bar one or two that escaped and survived) were dead. They did not cut their teeth in the reconquest of Earth because they were not involved. Never-the-less the Legions were trained in the use of their equipment, tactics et cetera.

There is no justification to assert that non-Astartes personnel cannot train Space Marines. Nor does it follow that the Chapter's culture, cult or any other such knowledge or practices need to be imparted by other Astartes; by their very nature these are aspects to the Chapter that will evolve and form over centuries. What is a known fact, and widely mentioned in the background, is that the very nature of the Chapter's gene-seed dictates much of the Chapter's character and it is simply the case that, for example, Chapters derived from the gene-seed of the Ultramarines or an Ultramarines Successor Chapter are more likely to be or remain Codex adherent. It has already been mentioned in this thread that a Marine might develop fangs et cetera if they are a Blood Angel, and these similarities are not just skin deep but, just as with the physical characteristics, temperament and attitude are also inherited, irregardless of outside direction or interference.

As an example, the Star Phantoms are reckoned to be a Dark Angel Successor because of their attitudes even though the Dark Angels deny any connection; the Star Phantoms predecessor is unknown and they have no known connections with any Chapters and indeed, they have strained relationships with other Astartes. And this is how it goes for the information we have with most of the named Chapters, with no evidence of the 'Cadre Theory' being applicable and often with no known information at all; the importance of which is that, whilst it may well be the case that a Chapter loses the records of its early years it is not reasonable that any donor, parent Chapter would also lose all of its own records that would show Captain X and various veterans and officers of the Chapter went off to form the command echelon of a newly founded Chapter.