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 Brennonjw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

Because you're rude about people and confrontational, but the only thing actually resembling an argument in your post is a well trodden and widely disproved fallacy?

why? I see posts just like mine on every thread asking "why the GW hate", don't see anyone up in arms about those

Dude, you just answered a question with a question.

You see posts like yours in every thread, so you've no doubt seen the typical responses to those posts, why did you feel the need to hurl yourself on the bandwagon with such gusto?

I'm sorry, I worded that poorly. On posts asking "why the GW" hate, I see tones of people answering that "oh look, a person whining about whiners". I'm just wondering why it's more acceptable on dakka to hate GW than it is to ask why the hate.

Because people complaining about GW are generally complaining about something.

Not only do people complaining about complaining not actually have any substance to their argument, they frequently frame it in inflammatory language.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
oh look, another post whining about price, ignore that video games, warmahordes, and other similar hobbies are all around the same cost, why is it that these kinds of posts don't get locked, but if you bring up that fact, your post gets locked and everyone jumps on you like your the anti-christ?

It was not specifically about "whining about price".
Some productive statements of why some "are" buying and their reasons.
While others state they are "not" buying and their reasons.
Nice to see you acknowledge with your opening statement that GW can be a controversial topic.

Topics of this nature tend to get locked if people get personal in their "jumping all over you" or too many posts with nothing constructive to add occur.
<edit> I suspect the condescending tone of the post is the greater reason for being treated like an "anti-Christ", go looking for trouble, "oh look," you find it!

Personally, the examples you gave have a subjective "value for money" that appears greater than many GW product, never mind game rule systems.

You do however have a point that the costing itself is very similar model for model.

The base cost to get to play the game however is vastly different from GW to Warmahordes and a "video game".
- GW: Big rule book, Codex, minimum models for a valid game.
- Warmahordes: Rulebook, minimum models for a valid game (model info on included cards).
- Video game: Base system PC, console, purchased game (download or DVD).

I have a vested interest in GW product because I started when GW had "good" rules and the pricing seemed competitive on all levels.
Past performance vs. present is where the perceived "whining" is about the "good ol' days" with hopes of seeing them again.

I see your points, and tend to agree with you, nicley worded. The condecending tone was probably a bad idea, I was basically trying to copy the feel of the posts I see on most, if not all of the threads questioning the GW hate, I messed up, time to deal with the consequences

 Brennonjw wrote:
I'm sorry, I worded that poorly. On posts asking "why the GW" hate, I see tones of people answering that "oh look, a person whining about whiners". I'm just wondering why it's more acceptable on dakka to hate GW than it is to ask why the hate.

Yeah, the wording you chose was about perfect to get a rise out of people (myself included).

GW "hate" may appear more acceptable because much of the communication from a corporate level is rather condescending and appears to have little care for their customers. Comments in the financial reports are a good read to get the idea.

"Why the hate" is asking for us to examine why we get upset with GW. Mine is that when I started they were "doing it right" it was an exciting time. Now I feel like a wallet with legs rather than part of a community which they were quite good at for a time.

Also when you have much money "invested" in their product it is irritating when you see their game system go in a direction you may not agree with.
I like meeting new players, "pick-up" games are proving difficult with their present rule-set.

It may just be another game and you do not think about it much, that is fine too.

 Brennonjw wrote:
I'm seriously just confused, box by box, it costs less than warmachine

Well, now you've done it, you've summoned the Warhamordes White Knights!

Battlecry: Facts be damned, Warmahordes is cheaper. And better. Except if it's more expensive and you don't like it!

And don't get them started on how PP backpedaled about "Play like you got a pair!" and how they would never move to plastic. Right.

 Brennonjw wrote:

What insults?

You're right, I should have used a different word. Your post was hyperbolic and non-sensical and laden with fallacies. Better?

The point of bringing up other things, is that people love to spout out that warhammer is expensive, and yes it is, but no more expensive than many other hobbies, that's the point of comparing them. My point boils down to that if we allow the people who are upset to post about it, even if it ads nothing to the conversation than "I think they cost a lot", why do we lock the posts that say "I think people complain about it a lot"?

And my point is that those comparisons are completely and totally useless. Compare like to like. Compare 40k to other wargames, nothing else. Again, you don't compare gardening to shooting, so why compare 40k to any other hobby? Luxury yachting is infinitely more expensive than watching your grass grow, but what does that have to do with anything?

The only comparison in your first post that was relevant was WM/H, which as has been pointed out, is cheaper to buy into, cheaper to buy a tournament sized army, and has better written rules.

Also, I was just wondering, what would you consider a reasonable sized army? 1500? 1850? just curious.

Reasonable sized, yeah, 1500 thereabouts I'll buy.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I'm seriously just confused, box by box, it costs less than warmachine

Well, now you've done it, you've summoned the Warhamordes White Knights!

Battlecry: Facts be damned, Warmahordes is cheaper. And better. Except if it's more expensive and you don't like it!

And don't get them started on how PP backpedaled about "Play like you got a pair!" and how they would never move to plastic. Right.

Go and find something else to do Derek, this isn't the place for you to ease your boredom.

I was talking to my mate at the game store last week, and we discussed this. The thing I do find most bizarre is that its always the biggest collectors that have the biggest hate for GW, its never the new kid trying to break into the hobby is it?

Log on dakka and see the really irrational stuff and its always someone who has been into the hobby for twenty years and remembers the good old days.

Anyway, I remember the good old days, it was much better. fething hell, even White Dwarf was worth buying. Alas, it has all gone to gak now, but it still doesn't mean there is any need for the most ridiculous vitriol.

GW is a gakky company. So what? I'm 35 years old now, it seems like the entire planet has took a leaf out of Americas marketing handbook and the entire world is full of gakky companies. They exist to make a profit, they exist to sell us gak. You can make the argument that GW does it particularly badly (their marketing strategy is definitely a bad one in my opinion) but that doesn't mean their models suck, clearly they do not. Indeed, if you make the claim, I instantly think you are not being objective. Occasionally they make a gakky one, but some of GWs models are absolute pearlers. Even the most vehement GW hater in my FLGS does not make the ridiculous claim that their models "suck."

So to answer the question, you can hate the company but still occasionally buy GW models. I dont see what all the fuss is about really, its not difficult to get started, go halves on a starter box and drop $150 dollars a year and you soon have a big army to play with.

As I always say, I probably only spend about that, and I have a vast collection of minis. I still don't think the price is prohibitively expensive, it just feels that way because everything was so much cheaper 20 years ago.

It can boil down to "why reward bad behavior?".

if you can separate the raw product from those who provide it in your mind you may feel better.

When seeing bad behavior of an artist or company it is a mixed feeling giving money to someone / something you ethically do not agree with.

At some point you draw the line when the product is not worth enough to you to fund someone's bad lifestyle.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I'm seriously just confused, box by box, it costs less than warmachine

Well, now you've done it, you've summoned the Warhamordes White Knights!

Battlecry: Facts be damned, Warmahordes is cheaper. And better. Except if it's more expensive and you don't like it!

I'm sure you can make numbers dance to prove whatever point a speaker is trying to make, but warmahordes is going to run a bit cheaper due to having smaller armies. Of course, what a lot of people forget is that for steamroller (probably the most common way to play WM/H), you need two 50point lists, which can share models between them but frequently don't. I wouldn't be shocked if the average total cost of a two list Steamroller event cost slightly more than some 2000pt 40k armies. That being said, high dollar cost, low point cost options from either will sway that dramatically.

Where Wm/H has a real advantage is that while 50pt, two list steamrollers is probably the most common way to play, it's certainly not the only way, and with comprehensive league support single list 50pt armies shine. At that point, unless you're building a wacky list, your investment will be significantly cheaper than 40k, while also playing meaningful games at the lower points values.

And don't get them started on how PP backpedaled about "Play like you got a pair!" and how they would never move to plastic. Right.

Yeah, I remember thinking their earlier mentality was really cool. Of course, that was ten years ago when they were a fringe upstart. Now their a solid #2 to 40k, and they've both toned down their marketing pitch and expanded the materials used to reach a bigger audience. As a hobbyist, I strongly prefer metal to Restic, but it's a lot easier for casual gamers to build an army.

They are moving to plastic now too (unless you mean they back-pedalled on saying 'we won't move to plastic' in which case how is that even an issue?) You don't have to use two lists for most steamrollers I believe (I mean you'll be better off doing so but it isn't forced), your lists can have a lot of crossover, and I'd argue more games are played that aren't steamroller tournaments than are. You can just as easily use one list in a pick up game, tournaments aren't the only way to play like with 40k. The start up cost for Warmahordes is significantly cheaper too.

Sorry, am I white knighting here?

I also don't see the issue with the 'play like you've got a pair' "backpedal"... They still say that in the books, it just has the caveat of basically 'don't use this to be a dick'...

To whine is to "complain in a feeble or petulant way"
If its a widespread sentiment among a lot of players then it's probably valid and therefore probably isn't whining. Grumbling perhaps, but not whining.

By and large, I'm a big fan of gw minis, so it frustrates and angers me when I see yet another price increase. So very occasionally, yes, I grumble! I As much to vent as to to see what other players think about the issue.

Also mutually grumbling can still be constructive:
"The f**king price of missile launchers on ebay is extortionate"
"Then why not convert them out of hunter killer launchers. See this tutorial" =Solution.

WM/H was cheaper when it first came out, but not any more. I just tailed up under current points, and my Cryx force doesn't even fill ONE of the 50-pt lists, to say nothing of the second. I would basically need to triple my "investment' in WMH models to be able to play WMH tournaments, to say nothing of buying all new rulebooks and faction books and so forth. That's a big change from my being able to play as Warmachine tournament "walk on".

I've been that big into the attitude, finding it a bit off-putting. I do like the precision of plastic, but I also like the weight of metal. Definitely, the mellowing of the attitude and has helped them attract more players.

You don't need to buy faction books. You literally just need a rulebook (my Warmachine rulebook cost £15 brand new) and you get all the cards with the models. It still is cheaper, overall, and crucially the start up investment is much much lower.

 Talizvar wrote:
It can boil down to "why reward bad behavior?".

if you can separate the raw product from those who provide it in your mind you may feel better.

When seeing bad behavior of an artist or company it is a mixed feeling giving money to someone / something you ethically do not agree with.

At some point you draw the line when the product is not worth enough to you to fund someone's bad lifestyle.

Exactly.

And it why some folks (myself included) get annoyed when folks say that they are okay with the way GW does business.

That the price gouging, poor rules, gimcracky miniatures, and IP bullying is just 'the way GW does business'.

I think that the Spots the Space Marine did more damage to GW than any number of online complaints.

And GW did that all by themselves.

The Auld Grump

I often wonder if the retail staff treated the GW customers the way the corporate management think of them, how many loyal fans GW would have?

It would be a bit like a scene from ''The invention of lying'...

''Hello basement dwelling socially inept pathetic looser.''
''I will put up with your bad breath/ hideous body odor / vile skin conditions, if you give me all your money for a few pence worth of plastic.And purchase any of our equally over priced items from our emporium of products you could buy cheaper else where.But fortunately for us you are too stupid or idle to go any where else. ''


Fortunately for the GW fans the retail staff tend to be much nicer human beings than Tom Kirby.

@TheAuldGrump: what the heck is a "gimcracky" miniature???

my argument is not, "i am ok with the way GW does business", it is "i don't care how GW does business"...
i have no control over the choices that management make, so i am not going to stress about it...
if i were the CEO, i would do things differently, but i'm not, so i am not going to worry about things that i cannot change...

the whole Spots the Space Marine debacle may have been stupid on management's part, but it is nothing for me to get upset over...
the Chapterhouse lawsuit, once again, stupid move on management's part in the way they handled facts and testimony, but again, nothing for me to get upset over...

you seem to want people to be moral crusaders against the people in charge of the company, when the people in charge of the company are not the ones actually doing the actual creative work...
i have said repeatedly, that i support the artists, sculptors, mini painters, and fiction writers...
they are the guys producing the Space Marines i like so much, drawing them, sculpting them, and painting them...
i am not going to write off the design studio's good work, simply because the guys in charge are jerks...

i buy miniatures that i like the look of, then i paint them and sell them...
why should the politics of a company's management be something that i stand up and protest, when i don't care about those things???
what i do care about is whether or not the design studio is producing miniatures that i want to paint...
if the answer is yes, then i buy them...
if the answer is no, then i don't...
it's pretty simple...

i would never presume to tell anybody what they should be doing with their own time or money, or even care what someone chooses to do with their time and money...
the only person i have any control over is myself, and i wouldn't want it any other way...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i buy miniatures that i like the look of, then i paint them and sell them...
why should the politics of a company's management be something that i stand up and protest, when i don't care about those things???

When those politics are having a direct effect on other companies or independant artists, it's worth stepping up and caring, at least a little.

The Spots the Space Marine debacle may not feel like it affected you personally... but ultimately corporations over-stepping their bounds where copyright is concerned should be something that every artist cares about, because in many cases their livelihood depends on companies not getting stupid with their IP.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WM/H was cheaper when it first came out, but not any more. I just tailed up under current points, and my Cryx force doesn't even fill ONE of the 50-pt lists, to say nothing of the second. I would basically need to triple my "investment' in WMH models to be able to play WMH tournaments, to say nothing of buying all new rulebooks and faction books and so forth. That's a big change from my being able to play as Warmachine tournament "walk on".

I've been that big into the attitude, finding it a bit off-putting. I do like the precision of plastic, but I also like the weight of metal. Definitely, the mellowing of the attitude and has helped them attract more players.

You dont need to buy the faction books. Only the much cheaper rule book. Every time you attempt to talk about WMH you demonstrate your ignorance on the subject. My 50pt COC army cost me $300, including rules. Can WMH be expensive? Absolutely. More than 40k? No. But I dont go to tournaments.

 insaniak wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i buy miniatures that i like the look of, then i paint them and sell them...
why should the politics of a company's management be something that i stand up and protest, when i don't care about those things???

When those politics are having a direct effect on other companies or independant artists, it's worth stepping up and caring, at least a little.

The Spots the Space Marine debacle may not feel like it affected you personally... but ultimately corporations over-stepping their bounds where copyright is concerned should be something that every artist cares about, because in many cases their livelihood depends on companies not getting stupid with their IP.

This makes me think of the CHS case, where GW tried to basically trick artists of older publications into signing away their rights to their materials.

 insaniak wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i buy miniatures that i like the look of, then i paint them and sell them...
why should the politics of a company's management be something that i stand up and protest, when i don't care about those things???

When those politics are having a direct effect on other companies or independant artists, it's worth stepping up and caring, at least a little.

The Spots the Space Marine debacle may not feel like it affected you personally... but ultimately corporations over-stepping their bounds where copyright is concerned should be something that every artist cares about, because in many cases their livelihood depends on companies not getting stupid with their IP.

But this is not limited to GW. For instance, Sky networks made Microsoft change the name, SkyDrive. I mean, how do you copyright the word, "Sky"? Look at the billions Microsoft has milked out of Android.

Every company with the capability to do so vigilantly defends its IP or perceived IP, to the maximum extent allowed by law. It's not evil corporations... it's just smart businesses in today's landscape.

 insaniak wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i buy miniatures that i like the look of, then i paint them and sell them...
why should the politics of a company's management be something that i stand up and protest, when i don't care about those things???

When those politics are having a direct effect on other companies or independant artists, it's worth stepping up and caring, at least a little.

The Spots the Space Marine debacle may not feel like it affected you personally... but ultimately corporations over-stepping their bounds where copyright is concerned should be something that every artist cares about, because in many cases their livelihood depends on companies not getting stupid with their IP.

so should i boycott GW because the management are jerks, or should i continue to support a product that i am passionate about???
what is the solution here???

the lady who wrote Spots could have easily named it Spots the Space Soldier, which is a nice bit of alliteration anyway...
how do we know that she wasn't trying to caplitalize off of the popularity of GW's Space Marines???

like i keep saying, if i had the power to make GW management change, i would...
since i have no power, except to vote with my wallet, i continue to purchase products i like, and not purchase products i don't like...
personally, i think replacing metal minis with Finecast was a bad move, so i don't buy Finecast for my collection...
i don't think that redesigning the plastic Devastator kit with a better set of sculpts and more weapon options, then charging a few dollars more than the previous, now inferior, kit IS unjustified, so i will buy that kit...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
the lady who wrote Spots could have easily named it Spots the Space Soldier, which is a nice bit of alliteration anyway...

True, but she shouldn't have to.

 jah-joshua wrote:
how do we know that she wasn't trying to caplitalize off of the popularity of GW's Space Marines???

Because the main character doesn't look like this?


The rest of your post was fine and reasonable, just felt the need to counter these bits.

so why could she not have titled the book Spots the Space Soldier???

it was a self-published book, right???
i have a feeling that a publishing company would have asked for a title change before release, for exactly the reason that GW management went after her...
a simple Google search of Space Marine will show you who has the most recognizable product under that name, even though Heinlein is credited with first using the name in his novels in 1939...

maybe Heinlein's estate should sue GW...
that would be a bit of karma...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
so why could she not have titled the book Spots the Space Soldier???

As I said, she COULD but she shouldn't HAVE TO. "Space Marine" is a generic thing that GW can't and shouldn't own. Their own take on it, the Adeptus Astartes is one thing but them claiming to own "Space Marines" is kinda like Burger King claiming to own the word "burger".

ah, i see...
your quote boxes were all wonky when i read your post...
i didn't see the "she could, but shouldn't have to" bit...

essentially, i agree with you, but i don't blame GW for trying to protect their IP...
i don't have to like the way they go about it, but obviously, it doesn't bother me enough to make me boycott the company...
the things i like about GW's products outweigh the things i don't like about the way the company is run...

on the topic of price, they have not passed beyond what i am willing to pay...
they may, one day, but they haven't yet...

cheers
jah

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
It can boil down to "why reward bad behavior?".

if you can separate the raw product from those who provide it in your mind you may feel better.

When seeing bad behavior of an artist or company it is a mixed feeling giving money to someone / something you ethically do not agree with.

At some point you draw the line when the product is not worth enough to you to fund someone's bad lifestyle.

Exactly.

And it why some folks (myself included) get annoyed when folks say that they are okay with the way GW does business.

That the price gouging, poor rules, gimcracky miniatures, and IP bullying is just 'the way GW does business'.

I think that the Spots the Space Marine did more damage to GW than any number of online complaints.

And GW did that all by themselves.

The Auld Grump

Not everyone agrees that they have poor rules or "gimcracky" miniatures, I hope that doesn't actually annoy you. Some of their prices are very high, some not, wouldn't call it gouging unless you'd call, say, Warmachine or Star Wars Armada the same. IP bullying is indeed horrible, but it's something most large companies do (for example, video game companies), and while it makes me annoyed at their legal department, it doesn't really affect the way I feel about their product. There are a whole lot of companies that do much worse things but whose products I still use, and I suspect the same is true for most people.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WM/H was cheaper when it first came out, but not any more. I just tailed up under current points, and my Cryx force doesn't even fill ONE of the 50-pt lists, to say nothing of the second. I would basically need to triple my "investment' in WMH models to be able to play WMH tournaments, to say nothing of buying all new rulebooks and faction books and so forth. That's a big change from my being able to play as Warmachine tournament "walk on".

I've been that big into the attitude, finding it a bit off-putting. I do like the precision of plastic, but I also like the weight of metal. Definitely, the mellowing of the attitude and has helped them attract more players.

- You don't need Faction Books (all models come with their cards)
- The main rule book is significantly cheaper, and is available in paperback if you want to get cheaper again
- IIRC the only tournament format which requires multiple lists is Iron Gauntlet. Most steamroller formats are 'up to 2/3' lists.
- If you're desperate to play in a tournament which requires 2 or 3 lists, simply buying one more caster suffices.
- Last time I checked 2 50pt lists was still cheaper than 1 1750pt 40k list.

 Talizvar wrote:
It can boil down to "why reward bad behavior?".

if you can separate the raw product from those who provide it in your mind you may feel better.

When seeing bad behavior of an artist or company it is a mixed feeling giving money to someone / something you ethically do not agree with.

At some point you draw the line when the product is not worth enough to you to fund someone's bad lifestyle.

I can understand this point but - and however much some dislike this - you have to put it in context with other large companies. GW is about average. I buy rather little GW, but I pay a lot for Apple stuff to use for work, I pay a lot of money to energy companies, I probably contribute huge amounts to Google and they are all far less ethical than GW.

GW have a patronising moron for a chairman and hike prices far too quickly. But they don't have high incidence of worker suicides and profit from regimes with poor human rights.

 Talys wrote:

Every company with the capability to do so vigilantly defends its IP or perceived IP, to the maximum extent allowed by law. it's just smart businesses in today's landscape.

Not smart if it does more damage to the company than the original "infraction" would ever have caused...

jah-joshua wrote:
essentially, i agree with you, but i don't blame GW for trying to protect their IP...

You really should, there's no reason for that sort of crap.

jah-joshua wrote:
i don't have to like the way they go about it, but obviously, it doesn't bother me enough to make me boycott the company...

That however, is perfectly reasonable.