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So,

Looking at getting the £40 starter set, the one with the dwarf and undead starter armies for me and a mate, but I watched a battle report of if and it just seems very.... basic? The game was only a small one, with just the starter set units, so that might have been it, but it was just charge and shoot at the nearest thing. All luck of the dice to see who won.

How deep is KoW as a table top game? Do the bigger games get more about tactics or is it all just a more casual table top game where the rules are simple and easy?

Also, how popular is the game? Are more miniatures being made? Don't really want to start a table top game thats just going to die out in a few short years.

Cheers,

Grady

I gave a brief answer in your other thread, but here's a more complete one:

Mechanically, KoW is very simple. There are rather few special rules or exceptions to the core rules, a units statline is typically more important than its unique rules, and movement can seem very restricted to the unfamiliar. However, this doesn't translate to a dull game in practice; less effort thinking about rules means more effort can be spent on the game and playing it. After the first few games you won't even need the rulebook, as it's all very easy to remember, but there's still plenty to learn to get the most from your units and army.

The starter set games are very small by KoW standards, and yes, it does get much better when you up the unit count. At the smaller size, you don't have a chance to do much more than decide which of your units will attack which of their units, but in larger games, it gets a lot more complex. You'll need to learn when to sacrifice weaker units and when to protect them, and to set up covering units in much the same way as chess. It's not uncommon for smaller units to get wiped in a single charge, but if that then allows your pike block to get stuck into the cavalry that wiped them they the enemy will think twice about charging. On the other hand, if the enemy unit is also covered by something else, then are you just endangering two of your units ect. It really does become a game if wits as much as a game of dice.

The game is supported very well. There is a (completely free) new edition coming next month which updates the core rulebook, all the army lists and even provides full 'legal' unofficial counterpart lists for every WFB army. There are also new minis to come, but Mantic are refreshingly easy going about what you use, even at their own events. If you want to use your olds warhammer army, or a force of Perry and Wargames Factory human minis with Reaper dragons and allied Mantic undead, you can. You don't even need to have the exact number if minis as the game is based in units; you'll find many people's '20-man' regiments are actually 15-18 minis on the right size tray/base, just to help the minis go a little further!

I honestly can't recommended it enough if you want a fantasy battle game, it's by far the best, most elegant and most fun system in that style I've found!

Well, you've sold it to me!

Will pick up the starter set as soon as I can! The company sounds like a winner as well, which always helps.

Do you know the rough point cost of the starter armies at all? And the points at which the games start to become "better"? Wondering how much I would need to drop to get 2 armies all together.

I've found 1000 points and up give good games, but that was with the old rules, this new edition has upped the cost of most things by about 25%, so make that 1250 for the same number of units now. I think the Stater armies are around 500-ish in the old rules, so closer to 650-ish now.

To expand to that level, your best bet is either adding a £30 1-player Battle Set to each side (so two game-ready armies for about £100 total), or if you have a bit more cash, add an Army Set to each, which cost more (£50 each) but also have better savings/wider unit range, and will get you right into massive battle territory straight away.

Dwarf 1P set:
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/dwarfs/product/dwarf-one-player-battle-set-44-figures.html

Undead 1P set:
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/undead-one-player-battle-set-50-figures.html


To do the numbers for you, those+the starter will get you:

40 Skeletons
35 Zombies (if you're willing to leave a few headless/armless/crawling, you could easily get half a dozen more from spares)
20 Ghouls
Balefire Catapult


40 Ironclad (hand weapon dwarves)
20 Ironwatch (rifles/crossbows)
20 Iron breakers (2-handers)
2 Cannon


Two very respectable armies that should give you plenty to play with for the very modest price of £110 RRP (and you can easily get discount from various retailers to make the deal even sweeter!). The larger Army sets would get you, for +£40

+10 Ironwatch
+10 Ironbreakers
+10 Brock (giant badger!) Riders

+20 Skeletons
+20 Armoured Skeletons
+10 Ghouls
+10 Zombies


If the lists weren't about to all change I'd write those up as army lists, but suffice to say that at this point, you're really set for the level KoW excells at; huge battles still done in a couple of hours. You're also going to spend a lot of time painting!

Finally, here is the public beta for the new edition. A few things have changed for the final version, but that should give you an idea what to expect.
http://manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/KOW-2nd-Ed-WIP5.2.pdf

Are there any other starter sets (as in the two player ones)? I'd just I really don't fancy painting dwarfs haha. I've sausage fingers already and painting anything smaller is going to be a pain!

The rules look good to me, just had a quick read. Simple enough, but plenty to allow some customising.

Thanks by the way, appreciate it!

EDIT: I take it that this newest kickstarter (funded ages ago though) will bring along new units and such to everyone?

There is one other, which is Orcs vs Undead. Same price, Similar mini count, might be a tad less as both sides get an Elite/Cavalry unit. Again, adding a 1P or Army set to each side gets you a decent force.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/getting-started/product/kings-of-war-two-player-battle-set.html

Failing that, every race has a 1-player starter, combining a pair of those would make a neat build-your-own starter set.

There is quite a bit of scope for army customisation in the Allies rules; as you can freely mix any Good or any Evil armies, the chances are it you can't find the right feel of rules in one faction for the unit you want, another faction will offer it. For example, most of my Human lists use a unit of elite Knights, using the rules for Elf Stormwind Cavalry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The most recent KoW kickstarter funded the new rules, and two new armies in plastic, Nature and Abyssals (demons). There were a few new units added to other armies (I think Undead are getting some pretty spiffy Vampire Knights, and there was a multi-faction Dragon+Rider deal), but it was mostly those two.

If Undead are your thing, then you may want to look at Dungeon Saga as well - they have undead trolls, which are in the new army list for the Undead.

The Beta for the new rules is still available in the Mantic Blog - HERE

So you can look at the changes. Some things have been changed a bit since the last Beta, but it will give you the groundwork.

Positioning makes a lot of difference in KoW - if you play the dwarfs then those Brok cavalry will make a huge difference, giving some option for flanking.

Undead are a bit trickier - and one of the biggest changes has been made with the Giant Rats (Or Are They Dogs?) - which have had their bonus nerfed, but no longer go away on a random roll. (And are now an option for a lot more units.)

Sad truth - I originally intended the Undead to be my main force for KoW - but have been playing dwarfs instead. (My girlfriend and I both play dwarfs - combining our armies when we take on others.... I had my first win against her in months last night - after we had a five month stretch of nothing but ties....)

The Mantic Undead are probably their best looking minis - and are pretty easy to paint. Army Painter uses them as an example in their painting guide.) I have not tried them with the new rules.

And, once you have the rules... another option, but not using Mantic figures, is to use the plastic Perry Miniatures War of the Roses (all the ones with a code beginning with WR) minis for Kingdoms of Men. (Mantic does this themselves, so I am comfortable in mentioning them.) Excellent miniatures, and inexpensive. between thirty and forty miniatures for 20 Pounds, twelve miniatures for mounted figures.

The Auld Grump

Wow, dungeon saga would be brilliant for DnD in terms of miniatures! But... I dont think I would end up playing the actual board game, since I have DnD already taking up a lot of my time. What exactly do you get for the $100 pledge? I'm guessing not the "Bonus minis" right? Or do you?

I can assume that they will release these miniatures for sale at a later date right?

The Dungeon Saga KS is closed now, but yes, all of that will hit retail over the next few months. We don't know exactly what made it into the final retail box, though.

Yeah just like you i'm just waiting for the Dungeon saga to go retail so i can buy and paint them for my DnD. The tiles are also useful for planning dungeons.

One last question... I am struggling to find the Starter kit with the Dwarfs and the Undead anywhere aside from Mantics official site @ £50. Still good value.. but I want to pay £40!

Any recommendations of places in the UK to get it?

It is the first/oldest starter set, and from a quick tour of the usual suspects if you can't get it you might be out of luck as it is OOP, and Mantic are just selling off what they have.

However, all is not lost! The new starter comes out in a couple of months and will also have Undead and Dwarves, along with a hard copy of the fully edited new rules. I don't think we know the exact content yet, but it's Mantic, so you can bet it'll be a good deal. If you can hang on that long (or just grab some expansion stuff between now and then) then that's probably the best option.

Might want to give this a look as well:
http://manticblog.com/2015/06/02/its-time-for-war/

It just outlines the plan for where KoW is going for the rest of the year. Short version is that every army is getting new Army deals at some point, but I wouldn't let that stop you getting the current ones as they are all great value.

Looks like Firestorm can get it for £45 with free postage.
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/kings-of-war-2-player-battle-set

Just email them first to confirm it's the same one...

That's the new one (product code matches the new one on Mantic's site).

Wayland have it if you want to take that gamble.

I emailed wayland, they said that they don't acctually have it in stock and I was advised to check everyday to see if they did... Which means they wont.

I'll just pay the £50, just wanted to get it from a site that sold some paints (not army painter ones) as well to save on postage as thats always expensive.

Cheers chaps! Will post back when I have it and maybe get some pictuers up.

I think Mantic do free postage on £30+. Doesn't help with the paints, but at least you get the box.

One suggestion, ignore the 1" rule. Whenever I play this game RAW, it really fethed up the game. Terrible for a rule thats there just to make sure that people don't mix up which unit is which.

 Dakkamite wrote:
One suggestion, ignore the 1" rule. Whenever I play this game RAW, it really fethed up the game. Terrible for a rule thats there just to make sure that people don't mix up which unit is which.

What is this 1" rule? Not played yet and only had a skim of the rules!

Basically, units not in combat must remain an inch apart. This is just stops units getting mixed up, so it's easier when stuff is on movement trays to just swap references to 1" to 'can't touch'.

Ah I see. Can't see that being a problem until I get into the big games!

Bought the set anyway! Will have to have a game with some of you chaps at some point perhaps!

Where in the UK are you? We've got a few players in the Luton/Bedford area that meet irregularly to play.

This video is a great introduction to how KoW plays - very entertaining compared to the dry as fook BoW one!




I got a starter set recently, but didn't get around to finishing building the dudes... I'll wait for v2.0 to drop and pick it up again

 Riquende wrote:
Where in the UK are you? We've got a few players in the Luton/Bedford area that meet irregularly to play.

Live currently in Leamington Spa, so you're not TOO far away, but potentially too far..! But would be nice to test the game before I splash £100000 on it.

@ monders - Thats the one I watched earlier, was interesting indeed but made it look a bit simple.. but that's just due to the small number of units I think.

Fair comment and I'd agree.

gradyhawks wrote:


But would be nice to test the game before I splash £100000 on it.

Somewhere in Nottingham, Ronnie Renton's anus quivers at the thought of a cool £100k slipping through his fingers

 monders wrote:
Fair comment and I'd agree.

gradyhawks wrote:


But would be nice to test the game before I splash £100000 on it.

Somewhere in Nottingham, Ronnie Renton's anus quivers at the thought of a cool £100k slipping through his fingers

The sad thing is that I can picture him saying it....

The Auld Grump

I've watched that video as well. Because there are so few units, (plus artillery) it's an unusual game to watch, and in my experience not at all indicative of the way KoW plays or even "feels". It's ok as a simple rules primer.

Yeah it's just the straight up Mhorgoth Rising box contents.

I had hoped that they would do more as they expanded their armies and introduced new units and rules... But it didn't happen.

I like it because they just seem to have fun playing through it, and it seems a very easy game to pick up.

That is a nice little rules primer... but mostly it just ended in my wanting badly to see more KoW Battle-Reports. I REALLY wish the game had a bigger presence in the mini-gaming community, because it is so obscenely excellent a rule-set.

Maybe we should all start making our own battle reports. I want to, but for now i only have one painted army.

Eilif here on Dakka does a blog for his gaming group, with write ups of memorable games..

http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2013/08/kings-of-war-battle-report-and-game.html

http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/quake-mourn-campaign-session-4-kings-of.html