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 warboss wrote:

Caederes wrote:
You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?

For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!

Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.

I think it goes without saying that I'm talking about its' interaction with the current codex, subject to change with the new codex. As it stands, it can pay 25 points for a 4+ invulnerable save which I fully expect to change in the new codex as that is downright bonkers.

Besides, the Shield Generator currently specifies you can't give it to a Riptide, and the Riptide has its' own unique Shield Generator. There is nothing about size in the Shield Generator description, nor would it apply to the Stormsurge as it is not a Riptide. It is also not a Tau'nar.

Regardless, that's what cover is for - have it standing partially in a ruin and it gets a 4+ cover save anyway. It's not like this thing will be moving that much anyway unless you are using the Pulse Blastcannon.

Also, we have another Tau'nar/pre-nerf R'Varna situation. Both of its' alternate main guns are Pulse weapons. Hello Ethereal! I also expect Storm of Fire to change in the new codex, but as it stands, this thing is pretty nasty.

They field the size forces they do because the majority of the peeons out there to die ARE conscripts. The basic guards.an who is part of the annual tithe for imperial worlds are literally the very best fighters a WORLD has to offer. If they aren't then the guy who sent them is killed for failing their duty to the emporer.

Considering most hive cities have more people in them than earth has now, and while planets are covered in them, how could they not have the bodies I spoke of?

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
Also, lets be honest, what army uses blind?

Well, the bane of Tau armies... ...

 Dryaktylus wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
Also, lets be honest, what army uses blind?

Well, the bane of Tau armies... ...

Codex: Bats is OP pls nerf

I would be surprised as hell if they allow you to purchase a Shield Generator on this thing, since Riptides are smaller and already denied such gear. Remember that stuff is shown at the list/costs of the gear, not in the model's rules.

The picture is really hard to read so much of it i cant even guess the details but as it stands....i got a kitbash to do lol cause SCREW THAT UGLY ASS MODEL! i already made BFG's out of my Broadsides' "Fistbump" rockets because i thought they were slowed, im definitely giving this guy a massive gun full of rockets.

I like the Stormsurge, as like others have said it is probably what GC's should be (unlike the horribly undercosted Wraithknight). I will try to get one for my Tau if I can raise the money for it somehow. I probably won't get more than one, as our local tournament rules limit the points spent on LOWs to 1/3rd of the force total.

Switching gears to a bit of wishlisting, I would kind of like it if instead of Longstrike being an upgrade for a Hammerhead, he would be an HQ slot (a character vehicle, like Sammael's Sableclaw). Maybe he could have a unique version of the tank's railgun (like strength D shots or something). The Hammerhead itself needs some kind of buff, and the Tau fluff does say that Longstrike once blew the head off of an Imperial titan, so...

I could see giving him some perk like "Non-snapfire To Hit rolls of a 6 changes the Railcannon's profile to Str D" which i'd rather have than Tankhunter honestly lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I could see giving him some perk like "Non-snapfire To Hit rolls of a 6 changes the Railcannon's profile to Str D" which i'd rather have than Tankhunter honestly lol.

You think you would but you really wouldnt

Hmm. 3+ armor hurts vs small arms, and krak missiles, but is no change against plasma and melta, and is actually better against grav. It's a trade off.

The fluff says this is desined to hurt superheavies, but the rules don't match that at all. What it does seem desined to do is kill hordes at mid range, which fits enemies like orks and tyranids in the fluff. Unlike most tau units, getting closer to it makes it more dangerous (until you charge it)

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Hmm. 3+ armor hurts vs small arms, and krak missiles, but is no change against plasma and melta, and is actually better against grav. It's a trade off.

The fluff says this is desined to hurt superheavies, but the rules don't match that at all. What it does seem desined to do is kill hordes at mid range, which fits enemies like orks and tyranids in the fluff. Unlike most tau units, getting closer to it makes it more dangerous (until you charge it)

Whoever designed this to be anti-superheavy is an idiot.

 warboss wrote:

Caederes wrote:
You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?

For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!

Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.

you can take 3 support systems so unless they restrict it you definitely can. Riptide has it's own shield generator specific to it. So we will have to see

This thing isn't just solid. It's fricking insane. You people are crazy. I can't believe it's barely more than a wraithknight ran the right way for what it does. It's like a Crusader Knight titan(you know the one too OP for tourneys), but cheaper and with an iller set up of guns and shield.

I could easily see taking 3 of them in a unit(cause they do that) being so OP it is ridiculous. Buy some upgrades (imvul if allowed, ewo, VT whatevs) and bring a firebase for support and overwatch/ bubble wrap potential and someones day is fethed. No one can deepstrike .... and where do they hide. If you go first they die. The end.


It definitely wont be great against super heavies but with marker support it will wipe up anything else the game has to offer . It isn't a bad unit. From what I can see.

Sorry to nitpick... but it's Ta'unar (not Tau'nar)

It indeed is not the super heavy killer it should be.
Firing everything twice will be fun though.
And it is quite flexible, good against infantry and it can do at least something against super-heavies.

But i do not know if i want one.

I like the model, but i would have preferred a model with arms.
Rule-wise it looks like a long-range monster, but it is not.

If i choose to get one, I will probably have to convert it to something with arms with the big gun shortened.

I wonder though, would firing twice mean you need twice the markerlights? That would seriously reduce the awesomeness :(.

I don't think so. With current rules, as long as it fires on the same target, it uses the markerlights, no matter how many times or how many weapons.

And in regard to another subject:
Now i re-read the Ta'unar, it is very clear that the Stormsurge is designed to bridge the gap to the Ta'unar, which is the real super-heavy killer.
And they have to be different, otherwise there was no point of making two models. Stormsurge is versatile, Ta'unar is giant-slayer.

When i have to choose between them (and did not have to look at finance), i would probably go for the Ta'unar, because it adds more to the type of Tau i like to play: lots of infantry, maximised number of drones and Always a few units of kroot.

If your army is vehicle themed, the Stormsurge probably is a better choice.
If your army is crisis and broadside suit themed, it depends on what weapons the suits have.

MoD_Legion wrote:
I wonder though, would firing twice mean you need twice the markerlights? That would seriously reduce the awesomeness :(.

Per the rules-as-written, yes. However, it also means that any single gun can be fired at two different targets in the same shooting phase....which is insane and makes the Stormsurge the Tau answer to MSU. The good thing as well is that the Twin-Linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector and Twin-Linked Smart Missile System have no need for Markerlights and will devastate multiple units of light infantry and light skimmers in the one phase. The shoulder-mounted gun can maybe escape not using Markerlights but its theoretical damage output makes it one of the best choices to use Markerlights on, the gun that absolutely needs Markerlight support though is the Cluster Rocket System. BS5 with up to 8D6 (when firing twice) S5 AP5 shots at 48" is no joke, especially if you manage to tack on Ignores Cover - that's an average of 28 shots!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ORicK wrote:
I don't think so. With current rules, as long as it fires on the same target, it uses the markerlights, no matter how many times or how many weapons.

And in regard to another subject:
Now i re-read the Ta'unar, it is very clear that the Stormsurge is designed to bridge the gap to the Ta'unar, which is the real super-heavy killer.

When i have to choose between them (and did not have to look at finance), i would probably go for the Ta'unar, because it adds more to the type of Tau i like to play: lots of infantry, maximised number of drones and Always a few units of kroot.

If your army is vehicle themed, the Stormsurge probably is a better choice.
If your army is crisis and broadside suit themed, it depends on what weapons the suits have.

Unfortunately the Markerlight rules specify "as part of this Shooting attack". Unless someone can prove that firing twice at the same target counts as the same Shooting attack, using Markerlights in that way won't work with the Stormsurge...not that it significantly affects how good it is anyway.

Caederes wrote:
Unfortunately the Markerlight rules specify "as part of this Shooting attack". Unless someone can prove that firing twice at the same target counts as the same Shooting attack, using Markerlights in that way won't work with the Stormsurge...not that it significantly affects how good it is anyway.

Yea this is what I thought as well, as it says 'Make the second shooting attack directly after the first has been resolved' clearly marking it as 2 separate shooting attacks.

I don't think that firing twice is a another phase or another shooting attack; but you could be right off course.
It could be a way to make the combination Stormsurge and markerlights not TOO good.
But this would only mean that you would have to take/field more markerlights.
On the other hand: we have not read the new rules (and literal tekst) of the markerlights yet.
Those have changed in every codex.

In general:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
A shooting attack is any number of shots with any number of weapons from one unit onto one other unit.
Different target means a different shooting attack.

ORicK wrote:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).

To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.

I would love to be wrong as it would actually make the Stormsurge bloody ridiculous.

Actually I just checked both rules and it 100% does not work that way. As I stated earlier, the Markerlight rules work "as part of this Shooting attack" and the Stabilizing Anchors specify "make the second Shooting attack". It's quite clearly a different Shooting attack each time which means the Markerlights don't carry over.

Not sure about the range on that pulse driver D weapon... still if someone were suicidal to charge it and fail, would be priceless to one-hit their carnifex and smile.

Again, sounding like a stuck record here, but I agree, Tau can already put out S5 AP5 across the board, those missiles just aren't enough.

Still, the Stormsurge design is growing on me

 Talys wrote:

ORicK wrote:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).

To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.

Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. This means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.

 Nilok wrote:

 Talys wrote:

ORicK wrote:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).

To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.

Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. Which means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.

Good catch. That severely weakens an already mediocre platform even more. You either need to take your second shot at BS 3 or have tons of ML support.

Edit
I don't think a lot of people realize it's base gun is the D weapon and boy oh boy is it useless. So you need to pay 25 points for the Str 10 Ap 2 one. You shoot two of those if your lucky to deploy. Even if you do no shooting twice in the first turn. Then you need a multitude of upgrades from shields to EWO ect and this things price jumps up extremely high. Now it needs double the amount of markerlight support than we thought it would. So either its going to be less effective than you imagine or its goign to be more expensive to support.

You can get two Riptide's with Ion Accelerators and put out nearly as much firepower while being more agile and they need less ML support than this thing.

Every time we learn something new it's worse and worse to field one of these things. It might actually hinder your armies efficiency.

 Nilok wrote:

 Talys wrote:

ORicK wrote:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).

To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.

Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. This means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.

This is correct per the rules for both Markerlights and Stabilizing Anchors. I also think being able to shoot at potentially eight different targets with four weapons in the same shooting phase is way better than twice the shooting at the same targets, especially in light of the Gladius and other popular MSU builds.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Talys wrote:

ORicK wrote:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).

To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.

Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. Which means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.

Good catch. That severely weakens an already mediocre platform even more. You either need to take your second shot at BS 3 or have tons of ML support.

Edit
I don't think a lot of people realize it's base gun is the D weapon and boy oh boy is it useless. So you need to pay 25 points for the Str 10 Ap 2 one. You shoot two of those if your lucky to deploy. Even if you do no shooting twice in the first turn. Then you need a multitude of upgrades from shields to EWO ect and this things price jumps up extremely high. Now it needs double the amount of markerlight support than we thought it would. So either its going to be less effective than you imagine or its goign to be more expensive to support.

You can get two Riptide's with Ion Accelerators and put out nearly as much firepower while being more agile and they need less ML support than this thing.

Every time we learn something new it's worse and worse to field one of these things. It might actually hinder your armies efficiency.

Lol. It's 15 points for the upgraded gun and if you think the Shotgun is useless you're actually just stupid. Something that shoots two Strength 9 AP5/3 (blurry image) large blasts at 30" or two Strength 10 AP1 small blasts at 20" is not "useless", nor are the two solid Destroyer AP1 shots at 10" if you actually work out that most people's answers to this thing will rely on getting close to it and you can freely activate or deactivate the Stabilizing Anchors to reposition it as necessary and force your opponent into a bad situation. And don't even get me started on what the Shotgun will do to anyone that gets close to it - even the 20" or 30" ranges - when it is firing twice. If you can't make that gun work on a super-durable model that moves 12" you should not be playing Warhammer 40,000.

The price of the model doesn't jump up "extremely high", if you give it the TL ABF, VT, EWO and SG you end up spending 55 points to turn a decent unit into a nightmare for any list that Deep Strikes or uses flyers....which involves a huge amount of competitive armies. Interceptor and optional Skyfire on a Gargantuan Creature with this many guns that can potentially shoot twice is hilariously powerful. Even if you don't fork out for the VT and SG, if you stick it in a Ruin it will get a 4+ cover save. Doubling Markerlights is not as big of a deal as you make out either seeing as the TL Smart Missiles and TL ABF don't need any Markerlights, leaving just the Destroyer Missiles and two primary guns. Your average Tau list will have 8-10 Markerlights, and generally speaking you will shoot the Missiles at the same target as the Shotgun/Demolisher Cannon to guarantee huge damage on a target. Realistically this means you will use 4 tokens on the Shotgun/Demolisher Cannon + Missiles and 4 tokens on the Missiles themselves. This might seem bad but if you factor in the squad potential of the Stormsurges it actually becomes ridiculous, and the Markerlight usage listed above is based on either going to Ballistic Skill 5 or using Ignores Cover. It's not the most ideal scenario but if you ask anyone that plays against a Gladius what they want, they will tell you being able to shoot at up to eight targets per turn without factoring in the missiles is better than having to double down on Markerlights.

Two Riptides with Ion Accelerators don't have comparable firepower to a Stormsurge with the basic Shotgun and TL ABF actually. If we assume the Stormsurge is firing twice, you're looking at this comparison; the Riptides put out 6 BS3 S7 AP2 shots or 2 S8 AP2 Large Blasts (Gets Hot) at 72", as well as 8 TL BS3 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover shots via their Smart Missile Systems (often a weapon of choice for the IA Riptide). The Stormsurge with Shotgun puts out 4 S9 AP5/3 Large Blasts at 30"/4 S10 AP1 Small Blasts at 20"/4 BS3 Destroyer AP1 shots at 10", 8D6 (averaging 28 shots) BS3 S5 AP5 shots, 8 TL BS3 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover shots, 2 S4 AP5 Ignores Cover Barrage Large Blasts and 4 BS3 S8 AP1 shots (these are one-use-only). And that Stormsurge variant is 365 points compared to the 370 point pair of Ion Accelerator Riptides. You're totally wrong here.

The Stormsurge moves an average of 12" a turn slowed by terrain, the Riptides move an average of 13" a turn not slowed by terrain. Considering the former wants to be in cover if it doesn't have a Shield Generator, this isn't a massive difference. Durability wise it's also a tight one; the Riptides have 10 Wounds at Toughness 6, 2+ armour, 5+ invulnerable and they lose half of their total effectiveness when they suffer 5 Wounds. The Stormsurge has 8 Wounds at Toughness 6, 3+ armour, 5+ Feel No Pain, virtual immunity to Poison/Sniper weapons, immunity to Instant Death, doesn't lose effectiveness until it loses all 8 Wounds and can easily make up for the lack of an invulnerable save by having one of its toes in cover. As for Markerlights, Riptides specifically want Ballistic Skill 5 and Ignores Cover every time they shoot at a single target to make their Ion Accelerator reliable which means 4 tokens per Riptide. As I worked out above, the Stormsurge needs roughly 8 to go at full effectiveness as unlike the Riptide it has the sheer weight of shots to be able to confidently sacrifice either Ignores Cover or Ballistic Skill 5 depending on the weapon being fired.

Your even assuming you can set up and fire. The Riptides are firing maximum firepower turn one and can always use their maximum firepower. You also can't shoot two shots the turn you set up. So if your forced to move for any reason your firepower is being drastically affected.

If this thing can set up and sit there until the next shooting round sure, but 40k is more mobile than ever I just can't see that happening. This thing requires a ton of support for it to work. It just seems to need too ideal of conditions to pull it off. If something does go wrong there is a ton of eggs in one basket with this thing.

 warboss wrote:


Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.

The Riptide's Nova Reactor is 5++, not the Shield Generator (which it doesn't possess). No reason to think it'll be 5++ to Stormsurge, as it doesn't possess a Nova Reactor

 Gamgee wrote:
Your even assuming you can set up and fire. The Riptides are firing maximum firepower turn one and can always use their maximum firepower. You also can't shoot two shots the turn you set up. So if your forced to move for any reason your firepower is being drastically affected.

If you lose 8-24 T6 wounds with a 3+/4++/5+++in two turns, I think you had bigger problems.

If they can't get a invulnerable save from support systems (unlikely), use a Skyshield Landing Pad and use it as your personal firing platform.

To take out one Stormsurge, assuming it is coming from SM, you would be looking at ~53 S4 shots, ~38 S7 shots, or ~34 S8-10 shots. Not impossible, but not something to expect on the first turn. This is also assuming that all the shots ignore its 3+ armor and can only take a 4+ cover/invulnerable.

Tau units are all designed to require a lot of support to work. It's one of the central design principles of the faction.

 Nilok wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Your even assuming you can set up and fire. The Riptides are firing maximum firepower turn one and can always use their maximum firepower. You also can't shoot two shots the turn you set up. So if your forced to move for any reason your firepower is being drastically affected.

If you lose 8-24 T6 wounds with a 3+/4++/5+++in two turns, I think you had bigger problems.

If they can't get a invulnerable save from support systems (unlikely), use a Skyshield Landing Pad and use it as your personal firing platform.

To take out one Stormsurge, assuming it is coming from SM, you would be looking at ~53 S4 shots, ~38 S7 shots, or ~34 S8-10 shots. Not impossible, but not something to expect on the first turn.

It's not a matter of wounds. All it takes is a single unit to tie it up in melee. So your going to want to move as often as possible. As a Tau and FSE player all I do is move around to survive. I just can't see one of our greatest strengths playing well with this things rules. You'll have to hold a line and pray to god nothing can get to you and if something goes wrong you have no redundancy or backups in your plan.

It's just too niche of a plan for me.

It's sitting in that weird line of not being mobile enough and not being heavy hitting enough to justify its static position like the Ta'unar can.

Edit
Until I see battle reports of its effectiveness I'm going to be unconvinced and not letting it hit my table. Granted a lot can change between now and the new rules in the codex. So assuming it's similar to the one we have though? Hard to see it being all that good. It's not bad and it will likely never be among our worst units, but it doesn't deserve the hype it's getting.