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Very true. It would be neat if the Tau got Sept Tactics like Space Marines. Choosing what Sept your Tau are from gives you different rules that apply.

Has to be some hell of a formation to make this thing worth taking. Even then it would be the formation being that powerful as a whole not the little mle.

I think it looks fair.

That is an absolute ton of shooting when stabilizers are down, assuming it can fire more than 2 weapons of course.

Even the D gun, 2 shots with a 22" threat range. 4 at 10, but you'd be crazy to end your movement 10" from that thing.

 Bulldogging wrote:
I think it looks fair.

That is an absolute ton of shooting when stabilizers are down, assuming it can fire more than 2 weapons of course.

Even the D gun, 2 shots with a 22" threat range. 4 at 10, but you'd be crazy to end your movement 10" from that thing.

It doesn't get double shots until its next shooting turn and has to stay still the entire next movement phase. Good luck. It can always move but then your not getting double shots. So turn 1 you have to declare your stabilizing and not move then you can shoot once in the shooting phase. Next turn if you don't move and make it to the shooting phase of turn two you can shoot twice, but as has been discovered both shots don't benefit from one set of ML's on a target. This is because the second attack lets you choose up to four new targets and so needs even more ML support to make it work. Or your second shot will be at BS 3.

It's in no way worth it to me when I can have two Riptides zooming all over laying waste to stuff with an IA from turn one.

Yeah, its a neat idea, but the implementation is bad. The stabilizers make it immobile, and in a DS-droppod-grav gun meta it will die before it gets double shots.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Very true. It would be neat if the Tau got Sept Tactics like Space Marines. Choosing what Sept your Tau are from gives you different rules that apply.

That applies ot all factions:

Craftworld tactics
Order tactics
Regimental Doctrine
Forgeworld Tactics
Klan tactics

etc etc

For whatever every stupid reason only Marines get it............

vitae_drinker wrote:
Yeah, its a neat idea, but the implementation is bad. The stabilizers make it immobile, and in a DS-droppod-grav gun meta it will die before it gets double shots.

Which only becomes an issue if EWO goes away. A 3-man team of broadsides and riptides usually does well against droppods.

Just as well assume EWO will still be a thing since we don't know any changes yet.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Unless it gets three support systems for free, it will still be mediocre at best.

Read page 70 in the current Codex: Tau Empire.
Each Battlesuit comes standard with Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, as it stands right now with no mention of it in Wargear.

Who is to say what the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will come with as standard?

 Gamgee wrote:
Has to be some hell of a formation to make this thing worth taking. Even then it would be the formation being that powerful as a whole not the little mle.

The return of Targeting Array would do wonders.

Wraits in the new necron codex.

Getting RP. (Spyders)

RP's get +1 (Decurion)

Tomb Scythes are baller (curve ball!)

So, there could be a fair amount of synergy we are unaware of. There may not. Point is, we don't know.

However, balance of probabilities based off of lots of prior codexes, there will be internal synergies and super-group synergies. Plus, y'know, Marker lights.

Formations are where it's going to be at. Just waiting on the super blurry, foriegn language codex screenshots now.

After looking over the rules, I definitely think that the Stormsurge was designed to be taken in squadrons. On its own, a single Stormsurge is decent, but not hard to deal with. But once you take two or even three, the become exponentially better. You can stagger the anchorings so you always have firepower going out. You can set them up to limit deep striking and drop pods. Since they're a single unit, they all benefit from markerlights, meaning all three could ignore cover or be BS5 for the cost of 2 markerlights.

Honestly until we see support systems and what the special rules for the ballistic suit actually are, we can't fairly judge the Stormsurge yet. Is it the stupid OP monster we expected after the Wraith Knight? No, absolutely not (and thank God for that). Is it the worst unit GW has ever created? No, absolutely not. Thus far, it is a middle tier LoW with potential to be better depending on what support is available to it.

The sky hasn't fallen yet, let's all relax a bit before declaring 7th Tau utter trash.

Yeah, have there really been any BAD full-size codices since the start of the year? I mean, Codex: Harlequins seems to be the only miss and it's more of an Eldar Allies Codex than anything else. The Tau should be fine. Maybe not Eldar/Necrons/Space Marines good, but certainly not Blood Angels/Orks/Grey Knights bad.

Kanluwen wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Unless it gets three support systems for free, it will still be mediocre at best.

Read page 70 in the current Codex: Tau Empire.
Each Battlesuit comes standard with Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, as it stands right now with no mention of it in Wargear.

Who is to say what the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will come with as standard?

Actually, as stupid as it sounds and i really hope im wrong, the Stormsurge says "...a ballistics suit, not a battle suit..." which i could see potential rule-sharks using to deny it access to multitrackers/bsfilters. Which, if its not flatout included in the suit lists like it is in the current codex, i can totally see people doing just to be a dick. Thats why i avoid tournament-style players because they dont play the game, they spam cheese and rule-shark you to victory more than anything else.

Logic would dictate it comes with those two wargear, even though GMC by default doesnt care about multitrackers anyway but bsfilters could be annoying to not have. But as we know, people love to rule-shark this game and throw logic out the window, even if RAW makes absolutely no sense and is unusable.

 Mr Morden wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Very true. It would be neat if the Tau got Sept Tactics like Space Marines. Choosing what Sept your Tau are from gives you different rules that apply.

...
For whatever every stupid reason only Marines get it............

Thats because Imperials get everything first, whether they deserve it or not because yaknow posterboy faction.
Its yet another rule that fits the orks WAY more than any other faction if only one faction was going to get it, yet SM got it and orks got the shaft. I'd be surprised if we get anything other than an updated Farsight Supp. for yet another 55 bucks and probably just as different as the current one is to the current dex, if not less different. Oh, oh! and of course a Stormsurge model with IC rules! Dont forget that!



Regarding the rules of this thing, i still like the rules. Like others have pointed out its not an impossible to kill model, but its not exactly a cakewalk either. On top of that, it frees up my options in my normal lists. I typically run heavy RoF lists instead of heavy damage, this thing can effectively remove 1/4 of my army's RoF demand and replace it with heavy guns such as hammerheads, ta'unar, or perhaps a new heavy gun. Kinda curious what the stealthtide has, but unless they FINALLY remove the Stealthsuits All Have Bursts By Default crap i'd be shocked if it wasnt a high RoF, moderate str/ap gun.

Would be nice if they allowed them to pick and choose like crisis suit. And maybe moved them to FA or troops. And dropped their ludicrous price-tag at least a bit.

Right.

Current stealth suits have two things that really tick me off about them, even though i love the models and i still use them alot.

1) Cost. They are point for point insanely weak compared to crisis suits and their stealth is only situationally good, especially since theyre sitting in charge range all the time. When i field them they either get lucky and live all game due to 2+ cover, or die really quick due to literally anything remotely good in melee charging them, bad danger tests with JSJ tactics, or an ignores cover gun. Im fine with dealing less damage per point than crisis suits for the stealth tradeoff but right now because of their weapon options they are around HALF as strong as crisis suits and cost MORE. Makes no sense. Full weapons access would fix this.

2) Elite slot. Even if they get a price cut and/or true weapon access, they still suffer from crisis suits/riptides/probably the stealthtide being in the same slot. No matter how you balance them, one or the other will win and leave the loser in the dust. If they dropped stealthsuits to 18pts each with a required weapon purchase and optional support purchase, you might never see crisis suits again except in farsight bombs or bodyguards. Move them to FA and restrict them from certain weapons, but give the entire squad the ability to take the weapons they CAN get (im thinking no SMS/MP options).

Gotta admit, that'd be funny to have a squad of 6 stealth suits with flamers lol even if it wouldnt be that amazing (please give us heavy flamers....lol)

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Unless it gets three support systems for free, it will still be mediocre at best.

Read page 70 in the current Codex: Tau Empire.
Each Battlesuit comes standard with Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, as it stands right now with no mention of it in Wargear.

Who is to say what the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will come with as standard?

Actually, as stupid as it sounds and i really hope im wrong, the Stormsurge says "...a ballistics suit, not a battle suit..." which i could see potential rule-sharks using to deny it access to multitrackers/bsfilters. Which, if its not flatout included in the suit lists like it is in the current codex, i can totally see people doing just to be a dick. Thats why i avoid tournament-style players because they dont play the game, they spam cheese and rule-shark you to victory more than anything else.

Logic would dictate it comes with those two wargear, even though GMC by default doesnt care about multitrackers anyway but bsfilters could be annoying to not have. But as we know, people love to rule-shark this game and throw logic out the window, even if RAW makes absolutely no sense and is unusable.

Well, as it stands right now?

Yeah. It would be a totally viable stance to take since the Stormsurge's wargear does not include "Stormsurge Ballistics Suit" like the other suits do.

Remember though that the reason I specifically mentioned that page number is that it lists the types of suits. The Stormsurge, in a new codex, will likely be under that same listing of suits.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Right.

Current stealth suits have two things that really tick me off about them, even though i love the models and i still use them alot.

1) Cost. They are point for point insanely weak compared to crisis suits and their stealth is only situationally good, especially since theyre sitting in charge range all the time. When i field them they either get lucky and live all game due to 2+ cover, or die really quick due to literally anything remotely good in melee charging them, bad danger tests with JSJ tactics, or an ignores cover gun. Im fine with dealing less damage per point than crisis suits for the stealth tradeoff but right now because of their weapon options they are around HALF as strong as crisis suits and cost MORE. Makes no sense. Full weapons access would fix this.

2) Elite slot. Even if they get a price cut and/or true weapon access, they still suffer from crisis suits/riptides/probably the stealthtide being in the same slot. No matter how you balance them, one or the other will win and leave the loser in the dust. If they dropped stealthsuits to 18pts each with a required weapon purchase and optional support purchase, you might never see crisis suits again except in farsight bombs or bodyguards. Move them to FA and restrict them from certain weapons, but give the entire squad the ability to take the weapons they CAN get (im thinking no SMS/MP options).

Gotta admit, that'd be funny to have a squad of 6 stealth suits with flamers lol even if it wouldnt be that amazing (please give us heavy flamers....lol)

Pretty sure that at least number two concern will be addressed with the new book, since you'll be taking some sort of Tau Decurion with formations, so something being elite/troops/heavy is largely irrelevant. Pretty sure they'll get a small buff from the formation too, making them better. That said, all of that applies to Crisis suits and Riptides too.

Oh yea definitely. Following the trend of 7th ed books were bound to get a few formations or so.
I just hope our formation-wide bonuses arent limited purely to better shooting. New rules, access to rules we normally cant get/cant get on most units, or special unit squad sizes would be neat.

Me likey.

P.S. (I'm just subscribing. )

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.

IIRC, the cost for the Riptide's are also on its entry page, and not as a part of the wargear list.
The Stormsurge does not have any Support Systems listed separately on its entry page for a different cost, and references the Support Systems section of the wargear list. It's safe to assume that its options from said list cost the same as everyone elses.

Of the codex and not its white dwarf preview no doubt.

Riptide is listed the same as any suit, and the wargear has footnotes for riptide specific restrictions and/or cost hykes. The riptide entry itself does not have any options other than Shielded Missile Drones (since it lacks the other drones for an option) and Ion Accel. swap // secondary weapon swap.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Riptide is listed the same as any suit, and the wargear has footnotes for riptide specific restrictions and/or cost hykes. The riptide entry itself does not have any options other than Shielded Missile Drones (since it lacks the other drones for an option) and Ion Accel. swap // secondary weapon swap.

I just looked and this is correct. Point invalid Kingsley.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.

IIRC, the cost for the Riptide's are also on its entry page, and not as a part of the wargear list.
The Stormsurge does not have any Support Systems listed separately on its entry page for a different cost, and references the Support Systems section of the wargear list. It's safe to assume that its options from said list cost the same as everyone elses.

Here's hoping that certain Support Systems are exclusive to larger models like the Stormsurge and Riptide and they cannot take certain others. Here's also hopling that those upgrades are costed appropriately.

At 360, it's going to be pointed too high with support systems (shield, ewo, vt, etc) to be really competitive to include in an army list. You'll be looking at 400+ points easy per one. And if you think of taking 3, that's 1200-1300 for one slot. Yeah, maybe in an apocalypse game to shred some infantry hordes, but in a reasonable game of 40k? Shyeah, right. I would be much happier if it had been cheaper and an either/or build. You either build a missile suit, or an anti-vehicle/creature pulse weapon suit that both can take SMS and a tertiary flamer/plasma/airburst grenades. Cost it to be 250ish before upgrades, and I could see that way before the weird "I can do everything really poorly" suit that we have now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, essentially, you either build it as a super Missile or Gun Broadside.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.

IIRC, the cost for the Riptide's are also on its entry page, and not as a part of the wargear list.
The Stormsurge does not have any Support Systems listed separately on its entry page for a different cost, and references the Support Systems section of the wargear list. It's safe to assume that its options from said list cost the same as everyone elses.

Here's hoping that certain Support Systems are exclusive to larger models like the Stormsurge and Riptide and they cannot take certain others. Here's also hopling that those upgrades are costed appropriately.

In the support system page in the current Tau Codex it lists 2 prices for stim (it notes the 2nd price is for the riptide) and notes that certain units can't take the wargear (for example it notes on the Support Systems list that broadsides and riptides can't take Vectored retro-thrusters)

 Gamgee wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Riptide is listed the same as any suit, and the wargear has footnotes for riptide specific restrictions and/or cost hykes. The riptide entry itself does not have any options other than Shielded Missile Drones (since it lacks the other drones for an option) and Ion Accel. swap // secondary weapon swap.

I just looked and this is correct. Point invalid Kingsley.

Hmm, weird.
Well in that case it is possible that the points are different.

I still doubt it, because the other GW writers don't set the 'dexes that way, but maybe Vetock was given the reins again for the update.

The other thing about its cost, in apoc games 1200-1300pts isnt that unusual. Its a bit more than most individual models but the whole plan involving said model usually adds up to around that quickly. Even ork players utilizing the cheapo Str D blast style is bound to have multiple stompas or other walkers around.

Not sure if i'd ever buy 3 of these though if 150USD is the final freakin cost. Dont even feel like kitbashing 3 of them since the level of work involved to make it look good would be a pain in the butt to do identically 3 times (or at least, similar with only slight differences for uniqueness). 150USD...i'd rather buy FW stuff at that cost. Get an R'Varna or two for a little more. Dont even know if i wanna bother buying one to kitbash up at that price, i may just bastardize a riptide.

Same problem Broadsides have. Technically 9 broadsides is an INSANE list to field, but nobody ever does it because 50USD each. That hurt even buying 3 of them, but i liked the model enough to justify it (feth the old ones...lol). Still debating whether or not i want to rehash my old broadsides into proper sized models or refurbish them as crisis suits....since thats what they freakin are lol

I have six broadssides. Three with HRR and three with HYMP. Do those HYMP ever do their work. Yes they were expensive, and I'll likely grab another three at some point.

I started my Tau army with a Firebase Support Cadre.