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maceria wrote:
It's very obvious.

May take ranged weapons and support systems.
May take signature systems.
Alternatively, may take a Coldstar with x weapons.
If so, may also take support systems.


Full stop. The XV86, in the WD rules printed, removes the sigsys options, and does not grant them again. Plain as day.

No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.

RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
The permission to take signature systems was not specific to a crisis battlesuit but was for the commander.
A Coldstar replaces their crisis battlesuit but still is a commander. So an explicit restriction of taking signature system is needed to revoke the previous permission. At least this is how I am reading it.

Tautastic wrote:

maceria wrote:
It's very obvious.

May take ranged weapons and support systems.
May take signature systems.
Alternatively, may take a Coldstar with x weapons.
If so, may also take support systems.


Full stop. The XV86, in the WD rules printed, removes the sigsys options, and does not grant them again. Plain as day.

No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.

RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
The permission to take signature systems was not specific to a crisis battlesuit but was for the commander.
A Coldstar replaces their crisis battlesuit but still is a commander. So an explicit restriction of taking signature system is needed to revoke the previous permission. At least this is how I am reading it.

That's not what the rules say at all. Look at them again. The first 3 options just say "may take". The last option says "A Commander in an XV86 Coldstar may take". The exception is pretty cut and dry right there.

This scenario is very similar to the Space Marine Command Squad’s Apothecary and Veterans.

Veteran takes a bike (or w/e other options)
Veteran with a bike upgrades to be an Apothecary, replaces bolter (plus w/e it was) with an N…(forgot the name).

Commander with a crisis battlesuit (wargear) takes signature systems
Commander with signature system upgrades its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit with the High Output BC and MP.

So in both cases they just need to meet the requirements to be upgraded. Bolter (plus w/e it was) for an Apothecary and Crisis Battlesuit for a Coldstar. Going with this logic, technically a Coldstar can have 4 weapons as long as 2 of them are a HOBC and MP (cannot have any support system because of the hard limit of 4 set by the first permission). At least that is how I interpreted the ITC FAQ for the Apothecary and my FLGS plays ITC formats, so that is what I am basing my assumptions.

If your reasoning were accurate there would be no reason to list the access to drones and support systems twice.

Honestly they should have just made the Coldstar a separate unit entry to avoid this kind of debate, I'm 99% in the camp of it not being able to take Signature Systems but I understand why quite a few people believe otherwise.

No, it's nothing like that. You model may take signature systems. OR a model may take coldstar.

It's like the "One model not already upgraded" clause all over the IG codex. It's not a "well, it's the same unit, it's just named different" issue like with the apothacaries. It is a "you may do this, or this" entry.

A commander may select 4 items from ranged/support list, and select items from the signature systems list.

ALTERNATIVELY it may select a coldstar. Then it has these specific weapons, and may select two support systems.

Full stop.

And this is why RAW discussions are stupid. Its viewed in so many ways.

Why on earth would they list his options more than once when you buy the coldstar suit unless it was to restrict some of them?
The game is significantly less stressful and fun if you play logically. Look at the way rules are laid out for situations like this. Strictly RAW if hes allowed to take sig systems still, the wording makes 0 sense. Kinda like how people claim GMCs can still only fire 2 guns despite every single GMC that even has a gun has a plethora of small arms on top of one or two big guns. Why would they equip EVERY GMC with multiple guns if they can only fire 2? Makes 0 sense.

Commander
-May take 4 ranged/support system
-May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
-May take 2 drones
-May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
-A Commander in a Coldstar may take support system and drones

The commander was given a permission to take signature systems which was not tied to any wargear. Coldstar replaces a crisis battlesuit which are both wargears. Once given a permission an explicit restriction is required to revoke said permission. I do not see anything in the entry that is restricting the commander from taking signature systems. I see where people are assuming the coldstar cannot have any signature systems because of the reiteration of the drones option but no where in that entry invalidates the permission for taking signature systems. Yes the signature system part was not reiterated from the coldstar entry but that does not equate revoking the permission for a commander to take signature systems. It needs to explicitly state that a coldstar cannot take signature systems to revoke the permission it was given. So yes, RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.

If you are right and Iridium Armour is still a relic and works the way it currently does, it will make the Coldstar so much better than it currently is. Otherwise I'm hoping the seemingly confirmed page with all the rules for the different Battlesuits (the wargear for the Commander says "Crisis Battlesuit) has some added stuff regarding the Coldstar suit. I think it's a finicky but cool unit otherwise.

"A commander may INSTEAD replace its crisis battlesuit with an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit....."

Meaning any and all before mentioned upgrades are revoked upon taking the Coldstar suit.

It can't take any signature systems. In its little blurb it tells us what we can take with it and it says only 2 support systems and 2 drones. If we could take even some signature systems or even no limit like a normal commander it would be listed as being an option.

They chose to exclude it which tells us all we need to know. No signature systems.

Tautastic wrote:
Commander
-May take 4 ranged/support system
-May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
-May take 2 drones
-May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
-A Commander in a Coldstar may take support system and drones

The commander was given a permission to take signature systems which was not tied to any wargear. Coldstar replaces a crisis battlesuit which are both wargears. Once given a permission an explicit restriction is required to revoke said permission. I do not see anything in the entry that is restricting the commander from taking signature systems. I see where people are assuming the coldstar cannot have any signature systems because of the reiteration of the drones option but no where in that entry invalidates the permission for taking signature systems. Yes the signature system part was not reiterated from the coldstar entry but that does not equate revoking the permission for a commander to take signature systems. It needs to explicitly state that a coldstar cannot take signature systems to revoke the permission it was given. So yes, RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.

If this is the way it works why did they specify the number of drones. Since they didn't change then there is no reason to relist them. if it was writen like you are suggesting then the only addition after the coldstar entry would be the limiting of support system.

Thank is just my feeling. play with it how you want as long as you, your opponent, and your TO (if you have one) agree.

Cause its not the way it works. People will read rules to favor themselves whether they do it intentionally or not.

It says INSTEAD, on top of omitting the sig system options if you take a coldstar unit. There is no debate, as much as i think it sucks its the way its written clean as day.

Tautastic wrote:
Commander
-May take 4 ranged/support system
-May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
-May take 2 drones
-May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
-A Commander in a Coldstar may take support system and drones

The commander was given a permission to take signature systems which was not tied to any wargear. Coldstar replaces a crisis battlesuit which are both wargears. Once given a permission an explicit restriction is required to revoke said permission. I do not see anything in the entry that is restricting the commander from taking signature systems. I see where people are assuming the coldstar cannot have any signature systems because of the reiteration of the drones option but no where in that entry invalidates the permission for taking signature systems. Yes the signature system part was not reiterated from the coldstar entry but that does not equate revoking the permission for a commander to take signature systems. It needs to explicitly state that a coldstar cannot take signature systems to revoke the permission it was given. So yes, RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.

Commander and Commander in Coldstar are two separate things, so the options for one aren't for the other. RAW, and honestly how it's worded it clearly shows that the Coldstar is only allowed to take Support Systems and Drones. Anything other interpretation is just kinda reaching.

A Commander can either be in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit (both wargears) but still is a Commander. If they were separate things then it should have been in separate entries (Farsight and Shadowsun) but both are under the Commander entry which entails they are both Commanders but with different wargears. The permission for taking signature systems is not dependent or tied with any wargear but to the Commander. Also, the "INSTEAD" part was referring to wargears (Crisis battlesuits or coldstar battlesuits). Again, the permission to take signature items is not tied to wargears.

Tautastic wrote:
A Commander can either be in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit (both wargears) but still is a Commander. If they were separate things then it should have been in separate entries (Farsight and Shadowsun) but both are under the Commander entry which entails they are both Commanders but with different wargears. The permission for taking signature systems is not dependent or tied with any wargear but to the Commander. Also, the "INSTEAD" part was referring to wargears (Crisis battlesuits or coldstar battlesuits). Again, the permission to take signature items is not tied to wargears.

If that was in any way true, there would be no reason to list Support Systems or Drones again. You can't just contradict yourself, you're clearly trying to interpret it in an illogical fashion.

Tautastic wrote:
A Commander can either be in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit (both wargears) but still is a Commander. If they were separate things then it should have been in separate entries (Farsight and Shadowsun) but both are under the Commander entry which entails they are both Commanders but with different wargears. The permission for taking signature systems is not dependent or tied with any wargear but to the Commander. Also, the "INSTEAD" part was referring to wargears (Crisis battlesuits or coldstar battlesuits). Again, the permission to take signature items is not tied to wargears.

Signature systems are wargear....theyre just listed separately to avoid having to specify what a model can and cannot take from a wargear list.
You cannot say the instead word only restricts part of the before-mentioned options. Its like complimenting a girl on dozens of things and adding the word "but..." at the end. Everything you just said now means absolutely nothing. Try as you will to explain that "but" statement was only for one part of the compliments, she will still disregard all of them.

It looks like the codex art is going to be reused. That's odd.

maceria wrote:
It's very obvious.

No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.

I wish I could agree as to the obviousness. I'm limited ATM to referencial material, but I have the 6th ed Space Marine codex. to delineate when The Chapter Master Terminator Upgrade is taken, they denote it as a hyphon rather than a bullet. It additionally specifically notes the terminator character 'may ONLY take....'

Regarding the outcome, I am inclined to agree with you(by the preponderance of the rule, not absolution). But as to the clarity, we part ways.

I would much prefer they word it similarly to the Termnator hero example:

Commander
* May take 4 ranged/support system
* May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
* May take 2 drones
* May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
_ -A Commander in a Coldstar may only take support system and drones
.

Requizen wrote:
Commander and Commander in Coldstar are two separate things, so the options for one aren't for the other. RAW, and honestly how it's worded it clearly shows that the Coldstar is only allowed to take Support Systems and Drones. Anything other interpretation is just kinda reaching.

No different than Captain Karlaen (and I'm sure, the forthcoming Captain that comes in the Solaq box) are Captains, but don't have access to any of the options under Space Marine or Blood Angels Captains, and aren't interchangeable with unnamed captains (to complete a formation, for instance). Same can be said for any model with its own dataslate.

 Talys wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Commander and Commander in Coldstar are two separate things, so the options for one aren't for the other. RAW, and honestly how it's worded it clearly shows that the Coldstar is only allowed to take Support Systems and Drones. Anything other interpretation is just kinda reaching.

No different than Captain Karlaen (and I'm sure, the forthcoming Captain that comes in the Solaq box) are Captains, but don't have access to any of the options under Space Marine or Blood Angels Captains, and aren't interchangeable with unnamed captains (to complete a formation, for instance). Same can be said for any model with its own dataslate.

Strictly speaking, the reason why Captain Karlaen doesn't have access to any of the options under Space Marine[why would a Blood Angel have Space Marine wargear options anyways?] or Blood Angels Captains is because he is a named Captain. If you want to field him as Captain Karlaen, you field him with the wargear he comes with.

And also strictly speaking, the reason he is not "interchangeable with unnamed captains(to complete a formation, for instance)" is because he is not a "Codex" character. If he were in the Codex I can pretty much guarantee that there would be an asterisk next to the "Captain" notation allowing you to field him in lieu of a Captain.

Requizen wrote:
That's not what the rules say at all. Look at them again. The first 3 options just say "may take". The last option says "A Commander in an XV86 Coldstar may take". The exception is pretty cut and dry right there.

But they are different dataslates.

For example, a space marine Captain says under its dataslates, "A Captain may take a stormshield." If you then take a named Captain, for instance, Captain Sicarius, you may NOT take a stormshield.

Likewise, Sergeant Telion isn't treated as a Sergeant, Chaplain Cassius doesn't get the Chaplain options, Captain Lysander doesn't get the Captain options, etc. Pedro Kantor, who is "Crimson Fists Chapter Master", also cannot take any of the upgrades that say, "A Captain or Chapter Master may take ..." under Chapter Master.

Can we get the first page updated with all of the new leaked pics?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Strictly speaking, the reason why Captain Karlaen doesn't have access to any of the options under Space Marine[why would a Blood Angel have Space Marine wargear options anyways?] or Blood Angels Captains is because he is a named Captain. If you want to field him as Captain Karlaen, you field him with the wargear he comes with.

And also strictly speaking, the reason he is not "interchangeable with unnamed captains(to complete a formation, for instance)" is because he is not a "Codex" character. If he were in the Codex I can pretty much guarantee that there would be an asterisk next to the "Captain" notation allowing you to field him in lieu of a Captain.

Playing Rules as Written, if you fielded a Blood Angels Battle Company, which requires a Captain, you couldn't take Captain Tycho (who is in the same codex). However, if you played a Ultramarines Battle Company, you could take Captain Lysander, because it specifically says you can.

Of course, just about any player in a non-tournament setting will let you sub that in, because it "makes sense". And any player in a tournament will think you're crazy if you're playing a BA company

I do acknowledge that it is contradicting to reiterate both support system and drones but not signature systems and still claim a Commander in a coldstar battlesuit can take signature systems. But, nowhere in the whole entry does it explicitly revoke the permission for a Commander to take signature systems. I am basing my claim to only what is written, RAW, and in the Commander entry it permits it to take a signature system. This permission is not tied to a Commander being in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit but to the Commander itself. A Commander in a crisis battlesuit and a Commander in a coldstar battlesuit are both a Commander. Note: they are under the same entry unlike Farsight and Shadowsun which are both commanders but have separate entries and as such has different options, that is why I am claiming this.

Yes signature systems are wargears but the permission to take signature systems is not linked or dependent to a crisis battlesuit (which is being replaced with a coldstars battlesuits). The permission was given to a Commander and a Commander in a Coldstar battlesuit is still a Commander.

Our conversation/debate is more suited in the YMDC section. I will happily continue our mature debate in that section. Let us not derail the thread further, beside the codex is not even out yet. One little sentence can make me concede "Only crisis battlesuits can take signature systems" because as far as I know, except riptides in a FE, only models in a crisis battlesuits can take signature systems now.

It seems to me personally that arguing that the Commander cannot take signature systems with a Coldstar would be the same as saying a Chapter Master on a bike cannot artifacts because his profile says a Chapter Master can take artifact, not a Chapter Master on a bike can take artifacts. There are pretty clear reasons why they relist the support systems and drones. Due to the Coldstar having 2 mandatory weapons, they need to specify that he only has room for 2 support systems due to 2 of the 4 hardpoints being taken up, otherwise the argument could be made that he can take an additional 4 weapons or support systems. Likewise with the drones, it needed to be specified that a Coldstar can take drones as normally an MC or FMC cannot add non-MC models to its unit. If they didn't specify that there the argument could be made that the Coldstar cannot take drones.

I can see why the argument could be made that he can't take signature systems, but I can also equally see why he can take them. This is likely gonna be a debate we won't settle until we see the actual codex. As I said I'm personally leaning towards he can as it makes so sense that a battlesuit seemingly worn specifically by Commanders cannot use equipment made specially for Commanders and their bodyguards.

Also keep in mind that we don't actually know the rules for the Coldstar suit. The rules for the different battlesuits are seperate from the unit profiles, so for all we know the Coldstar might have increased armor and toughness, or it might specify somewhere else that a Coldstar can take signature systems. After all, (again using Space Marines as an example) even though a Captain can take a bike, the profile for a Captain on a bike and the rules for a bike are not included in the Captain's profile. Until we have a full read of the rules for Commanders and Coldstars, we simply can't know.

Sorry for derailing the topic, I completely missed "instead" in my sleep deprivation. The formatting us still confusing as hell and be a sperate unit entry.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

I can see why the argument could be made that he can't take signature systems, but I can also equally see why he can take them.

Actually, as I can see, the whole problem is pretty darn overblown. The option itself invalidates all previous options because... wait for it... you take it instead of the previous options. It is written down clear-as-day right in the friggin option:

Ranged Weapons/Support Systems/Signature Systems/Drones options
>A Commander may instead replace its Crisis Battlesuit with an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit

I mean, what the hell guys...

Yeah, it's pretty inarguable (never stops anyone, though). No signature systems.

Also, like I said, I bet this replaces Iridium armor.

Why? They serve completely different purposes.