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 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Ah, an update from GW regarding GMCs and shooting (from reddit):

http://i.imgur.com/hy5nXE3.png

Seems like GW will launch FAQs in the future!

It's like... It's like GW actually cares about their game all of a sudden with this balanced Tau release and FAQ promises.

Hahaha hahaha oh gosh that's amusing.


But saying this I had a nice conversation with a gal from head office about Adeptus Sororitas. She said they should appear but didn't know when. It felt like a stock answer but it didn't come of that way

People talking about leaked codex pictures and not posting them...

Is this an elaborate ruse?

 Medium of Death wrote:
People talking about leaked codex pictures and not posting them...

Is this an elaborate ruse?

the leaked special collectors editon is some 20-30 pages back now?

 Medium of Death wrote:
People talking about leaked codex pictures and not posting them...

Is this an elaborate ruse?

If such pictures exist, they are taken with ten year old camera phone with the lense all smudgy that the guy is holding upside down.

I'm not really worried about Tau not changing all that much (Vespids and Kroot are a different story), as it's already a tier 1.5 army that gets new toys in the form of the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge.

The only thing really keeping Tau from being tier 1 is that they don't have an easy way to deal with deathstars.

 Therion wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
People talking about leaked codex pictures and not posting them...

Is this an elaborate ruse?

If such pictures exist, they are taken with ten year old camera phone with the lense all smudgy that the guy is holding upside down.

You forgot, they're also taken from about fifty feet away or a centimeter from the page so almost nothing is legible.

 Gamgee wrote:
and an 80 point devilfish.

While I DO think the Devilfish is POSSIBLY slightly overpointed (65-80pts is where I see it's value, so to me it's teetering on the upper end of the range that t I feel is a fair point cost.), I'm kind of glad. I made my gaming reputation using mobile Tau back BEFORE the days of Fish of Fury was even a thing...and remember sadly the sudden Great Good Bandwagon jumpers that came out purely because of a fuzzy game mechanic.

Especially with a new Close ranged FireWarrior unit, I'm especially glad that they didn't throw out a 35 pt Devilfish so I can hear opponents Gripe and spin conspiracy theories about Devilfish ONLY got cheaper to sell Breacher FW teams. They remain interesting instead of OP. I'm considering making a Breacher intensive force. (because they fit my old school of play and have been looking for Firewarriors to get some new Zeal and this is as close as I'll get to it likely.)

So if that pushed Min-Max Tau players into not swarming tables all over America with them and mine seem more unique...Awesome!

Do we know at this point if the FW's DS8 Support Turret is Breachers-Only, or is available to regular FW Striker teams as well? (I'm actually likely to model this as an Aerial drone, but has a silhouette groundside that mirrors the actual models shape for gaming purposes.)

Honestly no stats and points really matter. Formations and Detachment rules are all that matter.

 derling wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
and an 80 point devilfish.

Do we know at this point if the FW's DS8 Support Turret is Breachers-Only, or is available to regular FW Striker teams as well? (I'm actually likely to model this as an Aerial drone, but has a silhouette groundside that mirrors the actual models shape for gaming purposes.)

I think someone said there is a pic of them with the other unit type.

Honestly no stats and points really matter. Formations and Detachment rules are all that matter.

Honestly, this. With the exception of Eldar (who are always the exception when you get right down to it) the latest batch of codices weren't amazing or OP because of new units or new rules. What made them awesome were the formation and detachment bonuses. Necrons didn't become one of the top 3 armies because RP got changed to a 5+ super FNP, they got there because the special rules for Decurion and the new formations made them unkillable. Space Marines aren't powerful because they can now squadron their tanks or because Devastators can now take Grav, they're powerful because they get free transports, are battle brothers with half the armies in the game, and again got good special rules with their formations. Ad Mech aren't good because they are new models and units, they're good because they can use a detachment to get all their upgrades for free, and again are BB with half the armies in the game. Eldar are the only exception to this trend because they got heavy weapons on all their bikes and got D weapons everywhere, but even they are only truly as powerful as they are because, again, their War Host and formation special rules are awesome.

Everything we have seen thus far for Tau has been in a vacuum. We have made guesses as to how everything will work in the new codex, but with the information we have currently we are in no position to judge the power of new Tau. Tau are among the armies most reliant on synergy within the codex. A Riptide is only good with certain upgrades and ML support, otherwise it's just a very survivable model that will never hit a target. Broadsides are only really good when coupled with a buffmander and/or MLs. Without seeing the rest of the codex and what has changed, we have no idea how good the Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Breachers, Tidewall, and Coldstar actually are. This goes double now that we have formations and a Tau Decurion to look forward to. All it takes is a single special rule or buff (IE, 3 Breacher squads w/ Devilfish get their range bands doubled on the turn they disembark or something of some such nature) to take a unit that in a vacuum is mediocre at best and make them amazing or even gamebreaking.

TL : DR Tau are completely reliant on a synergetic army list to function on the table at all. To analyze the overall power and effectiveness of individual units (and through that make assumptions about nerfs or buffs to the army) without seeing the entire new codex is not just stupid, its laughable.

GI_Redshirt wrote: a single S10 shot simply is not a reliable form of AT, even with twin-linked and tank hunter.

BS4, re-rolling to hit and to pen... not reliable? For 55p?
I'm thinking of fielding as many gunrigs as possible!

Vineheart01 wrote:Though i find it funny it has no profile to be destroyed, outside the gun of course.

It's terrain, not a building or a vehicle. no reason to have a statline

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

Honestly no stats and points really matter. Formations and Detachment rules are all that matter.

Honestly, this. With the exception of Eldar (who are always the exception when you get right down to it) the latest batch of codices weren't amazing or OP because of new units or new rules. What made them awesome were the formation and detachment bonuses. Necrons didn't become one of the top 3 armies because RP got changed to a 5+ super FNP, they got there because the special rules for Decurion and the new formations made them unkillable. Space Marines aren't powerful because they can now squadron their tanks or because Devastators can now take Grav, they're powerful because they get free transports, are battle brothers with half the armies in the game, and again got good special rules with their formations. Ad Mech aren't good because they are new models and units, they're good because they can use a detachment to get all their upgrades for free, and again are BB with half the armies in the game. Eldar are the only exception to this trend because they got heavy weapons on all their bikes and got D weapons everywhere, but even they are only truly as powerful as they are because, again, their War Host and formation special rules are awesome.

Everything we have seen thus far for Tau has been in a vacuum. We have made guesses as to how everything will work in the new codex, but with the information we have currently we are in no position to judge the power of new Tau. Tau are among the armies most reliant on synergy within the codex. A Riptide is only good with certain upgrades and ML support, otherwise it's just a very survivable model that will never hit a target. Broadsides are only really good when coupled with a buffmander and/or MLs. Without seeing the rest of the codex and what has changed, we have no idea how good the Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Breachers, Tidewall, and Coldstar actually are. This goes double now that we have formations and a Tau Decurion to look forward to. All it takes is a single special rule or buff (IE, 3 Breacher squads w/ Devilfish get their range bands doubled on the turn they disembark or something of some such nature) to take a unit that in a vacuum is mediocre at best and make them amazing or even gamebreaking.

TL : DR Tau are completely reliant on a synergetic army list to function on the table at all. To analyze the overall power and effectiveness of individual units (and through that make assumptions about nerfs or buffs to the army) without seeing the entire new codex is not just stupid, its laughable.

This.

The people that are crying its the end of the world and tau nerf just need to stop and take a breath. Wait for the codex, wait for play testing, just relax and wait.

 Vector Strike wrote:

GI_Redshirt wrote: a single S10 shot simply is not a reliable form of AT, even with twin-linked and tank hunter.

BS4, re-rolling to hit and to pen... not reliable? For 55p?
I'm thinking of fielding as many gunrigs as possible!

You can have 2 max and that will end up being over 300 points of your army (since it appears you need to use the entire tidewall rampart)

To those who were wondering about the Ghostkeel's cockpit:

I finished my stormsurge and started assembling the Ghostkeel. The "doors" used to cover up the pilot are indeed hinged even though the instructions doesnt really convey that very well to me. Though the front part that folds down tends to fall open alot. Presumably a bit of paint friction will fixt that though.

The mode is insanely detailed too. Almost to the point where i feel like i need to paint it on the sprue lol

 Vector Strike wrote:

BS4, re-rolling to hit and to pen... not reliable? For 55p?
I'm thinking of fielding as many gunrigs as possible!

Where are you getting these 55 points from? The initial investment is 265pts and each additional Gunrig is 85pts.

Granted, if I didn't have to buy all the other stuff, an 85 point Gunrig in itself would actually be something I'd consider.

Gamgee wrote:First codex leaks are out. NERFS FOR EVERYONE!!!! That and still an 80 point devilfish.

:(

Our formations are going to have to be broken as (bleep) to help us out.

Gamgee wrote:The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.

Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(

Gamgee wrote:It's a nerf not being brought up to that level of power. All the factions should be. Either everything has super good stuff or no one does for balance.

Not some people have some and others don't.

If so many people are telling you to stop over-reacting when we don't have anything close to the full picture, just stop it. It's simply pathetic now. You should cease acting like a small child having a tantrum.

If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.



Seriously, how does "the points costs of three units haven't changed and we don't know their stats/wargear/special rules/options" = "NERFS FOR EVERYONE". It's like....wait, what!? I can't even comprehend how stupid that logic is.

On greener pastures, I really wouldn't be surprised if they gave vehicles back Multi-Trackers and Target Locks. It's probably the biggest complaint everyone has about them right now.

tedurur wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There is a different special rule that allows the 2+ for going to ground, damned if I can remember the name but it isn't on these walls.

Yup. It's part of the rules for Defense Lines. let's run the number again with the 2+ GtG.

Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (rapid-firing, 2+ cover save): just under 6.2%. Still not buying the threat from the barrier reflection.

And on average the same Marine will kill 0.15 FWs when shooting. So on average a marine firing bolters will barely do more points of damage than what they will lose to their own fire. If you fire with plasma then you will lose more points on average than you kill.

Yes but Fire warriors suck and I never bring more than ten unless the game is for laughs. How will this help my broadsides is what I'm really thinking. Which it looks like it could

Firewarriors suck?

Someone doesnt know infantry tactics. My 40 firewarriors i bring every game are a power to be reckoned with.

Necrons are not one of the top three armies by the way, They are easily countered by ever book after theirs and anything imperial thats willing ally.

Yeah fire warriors suck. I've lost one out of over 90 games with Tau. I can bring just as much str 5 without them while boosting my average str per shot and my ability to kill things of import. str 5 ap 5 is the new str 4 sp5. It's just not versatile enough. It doesn't kill anything of import unless you use enough and then it becomes not points efficient.

In 7th if you arent doing gladius or lion's blade infantry tactics are you don't play them
If your fire warriors a re a force to be reckoned with then you just play really weak opponents or lists. End of story. There has been no major tourney placement with mor then the min amount. Most have none.

And by the way devilfish are asbolutely awful in the current meta.

Devilfish don't suck because they are over costed. They could be undercosted and still suck if they don't do anything of value. What can they do??? Move fire warriors... lol... claim an objective like every other unit? No even at 60 pts they just arent good because the competitive army lists have 0 use for them. Nothing that matters can go inside and they dont do gak besides.

How are Necrons not a top three army?

A sub-10 point Fire Warrior is perfectly fine, the problem is that the army is based around heavy firepower and its most points-efficient sources of that in other slots plus a FSC fill up points really quickly. There's no special "draw" to Fire Warriors in that sense, though you can expect a big boost from their "Decurion" Command Bonus plus the Core formation bonus.

Because I have never lost to them. With Dark Angels new book, Marines new book, eldars new book or Tau. The fact that I can dominate them with Tau with the two only competivie builds Tau currently has is the most telling. They're easy to outplay. 1 or 2 mistakes against a good list and they lose. They're insanely easy to outscore in maelstrom with gladius, and they just cant even shoot at eldar

jakejackjake wrote:
Because I have never lost to them. With Dark Angels new book, Marines new book, eldars new book or Tau. The fact that I can dominate them with Tau with the two only competivie builds Tau currently has is the most telling

Irrelevant if you don't tell us what lists you used or what the Necron player used. You're just farting in the wind.

Exactly. Well built Necrons are better than well built Tau, currently.

Of course that could easily change depending on the Tau Hunter Cadre build.

Too much writing. I can tell you if I'm playing necron I'm always confident. I'm also of the opinion that if you're deepstriking over 500 pts of Tau you probably aren't going to win either and that along with Fire warrior spam is really common. I love Tau. I play four armies but Tau are MY army. Their the one I rep and I have to say I just rarely see people building good lists with them.

Regardless DA, Marines, and Eldar can build better lists is what I was saying.

notredameguy10 wrote:You can have 2 max and that will end up being over 300 points of your army (since it appears you need to use the entire tidewall rampart)

Tinkrr wrote:Where are you getting these 55 points from? The initial investment is 265pts and each additional Gunrig is 85pts.

Granted, if I didn't have to buy all the other stuff, an 85 point Gunrig in itself would actually be something I'd consider.

I'm supposing in the future we'll be able to buy Tidewall parts separately, instead of the entire thing - just like the Imperial Defence Network in Stronghold Assault.

I was mistaken with the 55p, but for 85p it's still good and cheaper than a Hammerhead. Still want to get many of them!

Caederes wrote:If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.

I agree Gamgee is overreacting a bit, but as far as we know the source said the Devilfish wasn't changed. So no Fast or multi-trackers for vehicles. Not a nerf, but underwhelming.

You cant really nerf something that is already useless. It wouldnt matter.

tedurur wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
There is a different special rule that allows the 2+ for going to ground, damned if I can remember the name but it isn't on these walls.

Yup. It's part of the rules for Defense Lines. let's run the number again with the 2+ GtG.

Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (rapid-firing, 2+ cover save): just under 6.2%. Still not buying the threat from the barrier reflection.

And on average the same Marine will kill 0.15 FWs when shooting. So on average a marine firing bolters will barely do more points of damage than what they will lose to their own fire. If you fire with plasma then you will lose more points on average than you kill.

Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.

Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.

jakejackjake wrote:Necrons are not one of the top three armies by the way, They are easily countered by ever book after theirs and anything imperial thats willing ally.

Yeah fire warriors suck. I've lost one out of over 90 games with Tau

In 7th if you arent doing gladius or lion's blade infantry tactics are you don't play them
If your fire warriors a re a force to be reckoned with then you just play really weak opponents or lists. End of story. There has been no major tourney placement with mor then the min amount. Most have none.

And by the way devilfish are asbolutely awful in the current meta.

Devilfish don't suck because they are over costed. They could be undercosted and still suck if they don't do anything of value. What can they do??? Move fire warriors... lol... claim an objective like every other unit? No even at 60 pts they just arent good because the competitive army lists have 0 use for them. Nothing that matters can go inside and they dont do gak besides.

Sure, at GT-level tournaments Fire Warriors suck. At every other level, they can work wonders. And at the same level, Necrons are really powerful.

Devilfish themselves are not overcosted. It's their weapon upgrades that cost too much.

I'd also like to point out that crisis sts aren actually a pts effiecent model currently in the current power gaming meta. Whil the devilfish is probably costed appropriately but the crisis suits add something to the competitive lists while the devilfish simply dont so the crisis suits while being sub optimal in the current landscape are still a better fit for it than the devilfish that are costed better in a vacuum. One SMS simply isnt enough. It's not that the options are too expensive. It's that the sum of the parts while costed fine doesn't synergize with winning units in the book. GT's aren't professional sports. They're competitve players. If you aren't playing like that you aren't playing competitively. That's what competitive is. Anything else is just something to banter over.. which is fine but it's not real mental competition. Sometimes, most even, those games are the best way to play. Pizza, banter, maybe beer whatever youre in to and just have fun. I was just making a point

Tidewall is not OP I agree In fact I'm not sure if it bad, terrible, or lol did you bring that yet but I know it's not "great". Could be okay. Nothing released for Tau is even at the current power level yet... Chill guys. I'm assuming the formations will take of it

Without formations Tau will definitely be under-powered.
1 millionth edit because the phrase "power level" always reminds me of DBZ. Without formations d

 Vector Strike wrote:

Caederes wrote:If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.

I agree Gamgee is overreacting a bit, but as far as we know the source said the Devilfish wasn't changed. So no Fast or multi-trackers for vehicles. Not a nerf, but underwhelming.

I checked Archibald_TK's posts and all he has said is that they are 80 points base, but he couldn't make out anything else. Definitely means we will have to wait and see for the codex. Additionally I want to point out that it is also possible the points cost is being misread, the same thing happened with the Stormsurge Blastcannon stats after all so it isn't entirely out of question that the "8" is actually a different number. Not saying it is definitely the case, just saying it might be a possibility.

Caederes wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Caederes wrote:If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.

I agree Gamgee is overreacting a bit, but as far as we know the source said the Devilfish wasn't changed. So no Fast or multi-trackers for vehicles. Not a nerf, but underwhelming.

I checked Archibald_TK's posts and all he has said is that they are 80 points base, but he couldn't make out anything else. Definitely means we will have to wait and see for the codex. Additionally I want to point out that it is also possible the points cost is being misread, the same thing happened with the Stormsurge Blastcannon stats after all so it isn't entirely out of question that the "8" is actually a different number. Not saying it is definitely the case, just saying it might be a possibility.

Which number got misread on Stormsurge?

 Vector Strike wrote:

Tinkrr wrote:Where are you getting these 55 points from? The initial investment is 265pts and each additional Gunrig is 85pts.

Granted, if I didn't have to buy all the other stuff, an 85 point Gunrig in itself would actually be something I'd consider.

I'm supposing in the future we'll be able to buy Tidewall parts separately, instead of the entire thing - just like the Imperial Defence Network in Stronghold Assault.

I was mistaken with the 55p, but for 85p it's still good and cheaper than a Hammerhead. Still want to get many of them!

If this is true, then I'm completely on board with it as a TL Rail Gun for 85pts isn't that bad. However, you only get the benefit of the Relay if you have a drone port, which is another 60pts, though when you consider the four drones it comes with, the price is more like 12pts for the +1 BS, Tank Hunter, and Monster Hunter, which isn't bad at all. Though there might also be the chance that you only get all of those special rules if you take the "rampart" as a whole, which is the 265pts base thing as opposed to the individual pieces since the "rampart" might be a formation type of thing, where it only get those special rules.

Honestly, the only thing I don't like about it are the shieldlines, not because they aren't good, but because they're expensive.

As a whole the thing seems fine though, it has its strengths and weakness, so it's rather balanced overall. I personally wouldn't take it as it currently, but I can see being convinced otherwise on this one, which means it's an interesting unit, and that's always a good thing.

jakejackjake wrote:


Which number got misread on Stormsurge?

Quite of the few numbers due to blurry pics, but the ones I remember getting the most confusion were the Toughness and Leadership.