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So the codex of dooooooom has been out for a while now. When we saw that D came out, I suspected people's responses would prove to be an overreaction. Now that we've had time to play a few games, has anyone noticed strength D weapons really making a difference in their games? Around here, we had a guy run as much D as he could at a recent tournament. He won his third round match against chaos but lost his first two matches against a green tide and IG guardsman blob. I've only seen a few game since the new rules actually involve Wraith Knights. In the ones that I recall, it died to a green tide and an unusually lucky necron warrior blob (backed up by an Overlord with a scythe). I have yet to see anyone bother fielding D-cannon artillery. I know people have expressed interest in fielding a wraithseer with a D-cannon, but I haven't seen it hit the table yet. Wraith guard are doing well against the same targets as before; I haven't seen d-scythes come out to play yet. Not one has bothered taking (or even building) a hemlock around here yet.

The wraithknight still packs a punch (and takes incoming punches on the chin), and scatterbikes have proven to be nasty, but I haven't seen D weaponry actually make a difference yet.

At my last local tournament a week and a half ago, a D-spam army played by a relatively inexperienced player bulldozed every opponent and took first place. I haven't seen any other Eldar lists since then though.

Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

I had my mates eldar d spam come at me, he wwp a dsythe unit come down and nuked my black knight unit with sammael, sadly the rest of his army got taken apart by the rest of my ravenwing as I just stayed out of range for the rest of the game and out maneuvered him, lucky game for me.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

I didn't write the codex. I am only playing to the rules that were put before me. If you think thats bad I put 4 wraithknights in 1850 list and literally curb stomped every list that tried to stop me. Also if you think I am a Pay to Win person know that I have been playing Eldar since I started back in 2007 and have had 4 wraithknights for well over a year because of the dreamwalker squad in the apocalypse book (which is also pretty dirt broken if you ask me but again, didn't write the rules).

Just because you *can* doesn't mean you always *should*

I'm not gonna run 3 Wyverns in a 500pt list, even though I can

^ like he said. That makes you waac. You choose to.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just because you *can* doesn't mean you always *should*

I'm not gonna run 3 Wyverns in a 500pt list, even though I can

Lol I will take my very best units available to me and my top lists when I go to tournaments (which this was). I had to fight against 2 Imperial Knight armies so I think it was warented. I don't run 4 wraithknights everytime I play at that point level. I have an entire binder of already premade lists and with the amount of Eldar I have I can make just about any list you can think of. In fact the only Eldar models I don't have are a few of the forgewrold tanks and flyers, shining spears, and Illic Nightspear. So before you call someone WAAC (@pain4pleasure) maybe you should gather some more information. Or you can continue to be a keyboard warrior if that's what you would prefer.

If saying someone is waac is being a keyboard warrior, you've just insulted 90% of dakka community. Since it isn't, and you're only trying to get a rise out of me, I'll ignore you from now on.

Epic accountability dodge. I want to try in my own little way. I'm really into fluff and aesthetics, it's all I dream about, I really like the fluffiness and aesthetics of the Wraithknights so I'm going to add 3 of them to my Ork list. It's got nothing to do with their stats or rules and not my problem take it up with the authors. XD

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If saying someone is waac is being a keyboard warrior, you've just insulted 90% of dakka community. Since it isn't, and you're only trying to get a rise out of me, I'll ignore you from now on.

WAAC is very heavily overused by a lot of people for the wrong reasons.

Not knowing the context of Xerics entire list, their opponent's list, any pre-arranged negotiations/expectations, and general community style, calling a poster WAAC based on a few units is rather keyboard warrior-ish and generally not appropriate.

Further, this thread is about D weaponry. In it, people are going to post about if they used them, or if they were playing against them. We should be encouraging people to post their feedback on this matter, rather than immediately resorting to childish namecalling.

It's certainly the straw that broke the camel's back for my gaming group. It's not fun. So after 15 years of playing 40k pretty much exclusively, we've moved on. We'll come back if at some point in an idealistic unlikely future GW gets their act together.

At my most recent tournament outing, I faced 2 eldar lists. D-weapons didn't hurt me as much as the fact that Dark Angels friggin' suck right now. Looking forward to their new codex for sure. The two eldar lists were not horribly OP, but they weren't totally tame and fluffy, either. It's a strong codex, but not as broken as some are led to believe.

One Eldar player dropped out of 40k and just sold the last of his Eldar. Another refuses to use any D Weapons out of courtesy to their opponents. Another competitive Eldar player is winning just about everything he puts his models down for, unless you know, it's another Eldar player.

It is that bad. Eldar were very strong, they got that much better..

Well, in my experience it's just shoved things more towards the current trend:

1) heavy vehicles that are not flying or knights are trash

2) skimmers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else

3) defensive stats are wastes of points. Anything SV3+ or 2+ had better be either drop podding or Jink-transported or it's dead

4) special weapon pricing is beyond absurd with the way GW is trying to "organize" it by making weapons the same price no matter what it's on. By contrast, unique upgrades that only one unit has are almost universally underpriced.

As with spamming anything, there's a point at which it's pointless to have any more of a particular thing.

To an upcoming local championship tournament, i'm taking a knight and 3 d-cannons. I think this is enough D. It's easily enough D. You need to complement it with units/weaponry good at taking out hordes and MSU's.

Has it impacted?

Yes. It bloody well has. I am an absolute boss at rolling 6's with my wraithknight. The last game I played, it punked two knights of an adamantine lance on turn 1. That, right there...is game over.

Haven't played wraithguard at all, not sure they're even needed.

played vs gunline IG army a few weeks ago, practically tabled him (1 guardsmen left at end of game). But my D weapons did NOT win me the game.....split firing wraithknight with suncannon and assault (and not stomp either), a solitaire/shadowseer parade plus rampaging wraithblades won the game. D weapon wraithguard popped a chimera and then were almost wiped out, so rode the rest of the game in the serpent.

So no, D weapons not raping right now.....wraithknight definitely so, even in the "weaker" suncannon disguise. Then again, even my wraithlord survived the battle.

Wyldhunt wrote:So the codex of dooooooom has been out for a while now. When we saw that D came out, I suspected people's responses would prove to be an overreaction. Now that we've had time to play a few games, has anyone noticed strength D weapons really making a difference in their games? Around here, we had a guy run as much D as he could at a recent tournament. He won his third round match against chaos but lost his first two matches against a green tide and IG guardsman blob. I've only seen a few game since the new rules actually involve Wraith Knights. In the ones that I recall, it died to a green tide and an unusually lucky necron warrior blob (backed up by an Overlord with a scythe). I have yet to see anyone bother fielding D-cannon artillery. I know people have expressed interest in fielding a wraithseer with a D-cannon, but I haven't seen it hit the table yet. Wraith guard are doing well against the same targets as before; I haven't seen d-scythes come out to play yet. Not one has bothered taking (or even building) a hemlock around here yet.

The wraithknight still packs a punch (and takes incoming punches on the chin), and scatterbikes have proven to be nasty, but I haven't seen D weaponry actually make a difference yet.

Codex Scatbikers and D-weapons is proving to be absurdly effective on the tabletop. Fortunately, the rest of the Eldar codex is very well balanced. At a competitive level, D-weapons haven't had as much of an effect as the meta was already shifting toward MSU. On an semi-competitive/friendly/casual/whatever you want level, D-weapons are broken as all get out. Fortunately, the solution is simple, either don't field Windriders and Distort weapons, or use the 6th edition rules for them. There, codex fixed.

Zagman wrote:One Eldar player dropped out of 40k and just sold the last of his Eldar. Another refuses to use any D Weapons out of courtesy to their opponents. Another competitive Eldar player is winning just about everything he puts his models down for, unless you know, it's another Eldar player.

It is that bad. Eldar were very strong, they got that much better..

(sarcasm) At least now we know where you got the ideas for your Eldar re-write (sarcasm). It's good to know that at least one of you local Eldar players has a soul. Send the competitive guy to fight a Pentatyrant list. Maybe then they'll decide to tone down their lists.

Eldar have always been a tough matchup for many armies. It doesn't hurt that they are very well suited to the meta. However, Eldar are far from unbeatable.

the_scotsman wrote:Well, in my experience it's just shoved things more towards the current trend:

1) heavy vehicles that are not flying or knights are trash

2) skimmers>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2x more expensive than everything else

3) defensive stats are wastes of points. Anything SV3+ or 2+ had better be in cover or a transport

4) special weapon pricing is beyond absurd with the way GW is trying to "organize" it by making weapons the same price no matter what it's on for marine armies. By contrast, unique upgrades that only one unit has are almost universally overpriced.

Fixed that for you.

I would argue that AV13/14 s even more important now with the abundance of S6/7 weapons out there. You could even make a case for Land Raiders if they cost about 30 points less stock.

The Wave Serpent is the most expensive dedicated transport in the game. The Ghost Ark is a close second. You could buy two Chimeras or three METAL BOXES for the same price.

Toughness is still very important. The reason more people use drop pods and bikes is to protect against the large amount of S5/6/7 weapons that are out there that don't care if you're T4 vs T3. But for small arms, the difference is big. It also protects HQs against instant death.

Yes, one cannon per jetbike is ridiculous. One per three is not. So only play with one per three, regardless of WYSIWYG.

In short, Eldar are powerful, and have some OP units. But it's not nearly as bad as it seems. People seem to have just adapted the same way they did with Necrons and Skitarii.

It hasn't really effected my local meta. the players who do well continue to do so. we have had a few eldar players come out to events but unfortunately they don't return due to the griping from the rest of the players. we had a Foot-Dar list with a mish mash of aspect warriors get first, to be fair the player had been playing eldar since the begging of time so he has some experience with the army.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

(sarcasm) At least now we know where you got the ideas for your Eldar re-write (sarcasm). It's good to know that at least one of you local Eldar players has a soul. Send the competitive guy to fight a Pentatyrant list. Maybe then they'll decide to tone down their lists.

Eldar have always been a tough matchup for many armies. It doesn't hurt that they are very well suited to the meta. However, Eldar are far from unbeatable.

Wow, eldar complaining about tyranids... and I thought I've seen everything...

so pentatyrants are cheese, while eldar are "well suited to the meta, but far from unbeatable"?

Most people are terrified about fighting my wife's Eldar without using extensive homebrew now. She annihilated someone in an apocalypse game within an hour with no serious losses of her own due to all the D-spam she could inflict, so yeah I'd say there's a problem. And that hour was half deploying stuff.

kburn wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

(sarcasm) At least now we know where you got the ideas for your Eldar re-write (sarcasm). It's good to know that at least one of you local Eldar players has a soul. Send the competitive guy to fight a Pentatyrant list. Maybe then they'll decide to tone down their lists.

Eldar have always been a tough matchup for many armies. It doesn't hurt that they are very well suited to the meta. However, Eldar are far from unbeatable.

Wow, eldar complaining about tyranids... and I thought I've seen everything...

so pentatyrants are cheese, while eldar are "well suited to the meta, but far from unbeatable"?

There are OP units and combos with everything. Gravstar and Adlance come to mind. And if five FMCs that each put out 12 TL S6 shots on top of being ML2 psykers isn't a cheesy list, I don't know what is.

Eldar have OP units, but aside from those are quite balanced. To a lesser extent, all armies have this problem of internal balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Most people are terrified about fighting my wife's Eldar without using extensive homebrew now. She annihilated someone in an apocalypse game within an hour with no serious losses of her own due to all the D-spam she could inflict, so yeah I'd say there's a problem. And that hour was half deploying stuff.

Pulsars and Eldar Titans will do that. Besides, nobody plays Apocalypse competitively. You're there to blow things up with ridiculous powers and vehicles. Did the opponents not bring any Titans of their own?

I didn't think D "spam" was a problem. I thought it was "a moderate amount of D alongside other stuff" that was the problem because it gives you enough D to invalidate a lot of units while keeping lots of shots from your "other stuff" to deal with enemy units that D isn't really suited to taking on.

Cheap D-weapons are very one-sided. They're too good against big targets and don't matter against blobs.

For example, i'm running footslogging orks, i don't really care if you bring a d-cannon or a meltagun - it's all the same against boyz. But if i had a walker army, it'd be an auto-loose to me.
And that's basically echoed in the first few posts stating that D-spam looses badly to orks and ig hordes.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I didn't think D "spam" was a problem. I thought it was "a moderate amount of D alongside other stuff" that was the problem because it gives you enough D to invalidate a lot of units while keeping lots of shots from your "other stuff" to deal with enemy units that D isn't really suited to taking on.

This exactly.
It's not D alone, but D combined with so many other things that are too good.

 Xerics wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

I didn't write the codex. I am only playing to the rules that were put before me. If you think thats bad I put 4 wraithknights in 1850 list and literally curb stomped every list that tried to stop me.

I'm a bit confused...you're trying to prove you're waac?

I had an anti-meta BA double land raider list (that pulled 5-1 and got me a pro painted knight at an ITC tourney,) that could keep some dudes chilled and protected against all the s6-7 firepower. Now that I can expect any given tourney eldar list to have at least one ranged D-weapon squad able to look funny at a land raider and smoke it, this is no longer a viable list to me. Especially since I fought 3 eldar out of 6 rounds.