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The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron/ and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Eldar AND Decurion?

So your brother played both the most resilient army in the game and the most killy.

You should smack him. Both because he deserves it as a gamer and because, as a brother, you're entitled to do so.

Ugh. Disgusting. I won't play any Eldar players until they get nerfed. This is out of hand.

 agnosto wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

Lol he actually is a very good player, nice try buddy. He was using an army that he had left over from last edition and putting Wraiths in wave serpents is not a horrible tactic. Typical person saying that Eldar open they have to be bad players to lose.

Ugh. Disgusting. I won't play any Eldar players until they get nerfed. This is out of hand.

Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

 gmaleron wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

Lol he actually is a very good player, nice try buddy. He was using an army that he had left over from last edition and putting Wraiths in wave serpents is not a horrible tactic. Typical person saying that Eldar open they have to be bad players to lose.

You know the game still involves dice right? And that even good players screw up sometimes? And that even OP lists have matchups they don't like? No one is or was saying eldar would have 100% win rate from the new book on. If they did, quote it so we can all laugh at them. There's so much "randumb" in the game that even crazy hard lists can lose. A seer council can perils, roll a 1, fail a ld test, and suck up a bunch of ap1 hits in addition to an insta death. (I had this finally happen to one of my Libby + drop pod squads the other day myself.)

People are saying eldar are broken because they are. They give you an inherently higher win chance against most of the possible competition, before you make a single strategic decision. Same thing with decurions and war congregations. Yes, it does seem kind of odd when a supposedly "good" player loses with them, but hey, even a ballerina can trip.

 Ferros wrote:
Eldar AND Decurion?

So your brother played both the most resilient army in the game and the most killy.

You should smack him. Both because he deserves it as a gamer and because, as a brother, you're entitled to do so.

I should shouldn't I. But it was me and two work friends ( chaos and orks) vs my brother's eldar, his friends necron and his other friends tau.

Basically it was wraith advancing with necron tanks and tau providing dps.

Silver lining is I managed to bust out my Ravenwing and win a Ravenwing vs Decurion and tau. Actually almost tabled bit it was so hard. Facing my brother's eldar this weekend. He's expanding to scatbikes though...

Scatterbikes aren't that's scary, the scariest thing I've faced is the aspect word formation where you can boost either the BS or WS of particular units. & I would rather face bikes & D weapon spam then Dark Reaper spam with that formation.

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron/ and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Eldar AND Necron Decurion AND Farsight Enclaves? Vs your Chaos Marines, Orks and Dark Angels? I really wish that I could say that someone wouldn't want to play such an unfair game because they would feel bad for their opponent, but unfortunately I can't. I know it's a stereotype that 40K players are typically friendless "nerds" who get picked on by the big guys. But seriously. Some people must really have a really sad life if they enjoy crushing an opponent in a game of pushing plastic models around. I have the belief that these kind of people are those that have little friends and little success in their own life. And by crushing other players, they can feel superior to others, in an attempt to big themselves up, because they don't have anything else in life that they can be proud of. Though I'm not saying this about your brother, some people that do this kind of thing can just be oblivious to how screwed up 40K games can be if you aren't careful. And some people like the fluff aspect of playing, for example, Eldar vs IG, two people could play knowing the Eldar has a powerful list that the IG can't overcome, but they enjoy recreating that kind of scenario that is presented in the fluff.

 Gamgee wrote:
Ugh. Disgusting. I won't play any Eldar players until they get nerfed. This is out of hand.

Dude you need to play me, I've been playing no D weapons in a Highlander style list for my non-tourney games. last 3 games my opponents said something I hadn't heard in a long time after a games of 40K. "That was a really fun game".

 gmaleron wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

Lol he actually is a very good player, nice try buddy. He was using an army that he had left over from last edition and putting Wraiths in wave serpents is not a horrible tactic. Typical person saying that Eldar open they have to be bad players to lose.

So, you're basing your statement that Eldar aren't broken based upon one person in your area who you admit hasn't updated his lists to include the new hotness? Yeah, that makes total sense. Don't get mad at me bro, it's your eldar player that limiting himself. Of he's putting wraiths in serpents rather than taking advantage of available abusive combos, that's not an indicator of skill, list or codex power, that's your eldar player being a reasonable, nice person.

The fact is that a relatively poor player can take an eldar list and beat people much better than them because GW gave eldar tools that they haven't given other armies.

it's not even that, I'm just tired of people crying and complaining about the new Eldar, guess what get over it. Instead of whining and moaning about it maybe people should discuss ways to counter such armies, you know think constructively. its not changing anytime soon so complaining about it doesn't solve a thing, and the Eldar are strong but they are not overpowered. That Eldrad Wraith shenanigans is pretty easy to avoid if you know what's coming, it's about gathering knowledge of the army and figure out ways to counter it. Last thing we need is another thread about people crying about Eldar it's gotten pretty old.

And seriously? The latest Imperial Army stuff come out is just as nasty, maybe not the same way but they are. Guarantee plenty of people are not going to be happy with grav weapons that can nuke a Wraithknight or Riptide at 30 inch range or having an army of 5 Imperial Knights with a 3 + invulnerable save running up the table at them. Eldar are not the only army to have lists or combos that make it easy to win.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

I didn't write the codex. I am only playing to the rules that were put before me. If you think thats bad I put 4 wraithknights in 1850 list and literally curb stomped every list that tried to stop me.

I'm a bit confused...you're trying to prove you're waac?

If you read the conversation a bit further you might have gotten the rest of the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Scatterbikes aren't that's scary, the scariest thing I've faced is the aspect word formation where you can boost either the BS or WS of particular units. & I would rather face bikes & D weapon spam then Dark Reaper spam with that formation.

Shhhh don't let people know about the dark reaper spam!

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

I have only played a wraith/bike army once with my legion drop pod assault list(anything that doesn't have deepstrike must ride in a drop pod if it has that option). I devastated it. My cheapest unit (6 man flamer unit) wiped his most important unit(bikeseer, full shurikan bikers x5) in the first drop, and my assault marines wiped both of his other bike units in my first turn. Game ended with me beating down his wraithknight in close combat with the sole remaining assault sergeant's powerfist and holdinig every objective on the board with something. 17 D weapons total, not impressed.

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

Thats either very lucky ork BS2 shooting, which can happen because they get a lot of raw shots. Or wasnt real D-spam.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player.

You need some caveats here, yes the redone Iyanden D-spam can be offensive, but some in fact many Eldar players self police, dont like thre changes dont like D-spam and dont like strength D. I am one.

So yes, I am an Eldar player and I think strength D sucks.

 Zagman wrote:
One Eldar player dropped out of 40k and just sold the last of his Eldar. Another refuses to use any D Weapons out of courtesy to their opponents. Another competitive Eldar player is winning just about everything he puts his models down for, unless you know, it's another Eldar player.

It is that bad. Eldar were very strong, they got that much better..

Is the competitive Eldar player me? I'm winning about exactly as much as I was with the 6th ed. codex; all the time. Not joking--won a tournament with my 6th ed. codex, came back a few weeks later with my list translated into 7th ed. and won again. /shrug

Ranged D isn't the problem, the way I see it. The problem is that one of the platforms with access to ranged D is vastly undercosted, has a tremendous threat range and is nigh-unkillable (has no obvious weaknesses). Spamming Wraith Guard is a trap (too expensive, completely ineffective against hordes). Spamming Scat Bikes is a trap (huge footprint, sub-optimal Leadership). But a Wraith Knight with Heavy Wraith Cannons--that is a REAL problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
I had an anti-meta BA double land raider list (that pulled 5-1 and got me a pro painted knight at an ITC tourney,) that could keep some dudes chilled and protected against all the s6-7 firepower. Now that I can expect any given tourney eldar list to have at least one ranged D-weapon squad able to look funny at a land raider and smoke it, this is no longer a viable list to me. Especially since I fought 3 eldar out of 6 rounds.

I have a battle report vs. a Blood Angel mech list going up this weekend. I was playing my Cloudstrike with Fire Dragons and Webstriking Scytheguard in a Wave Serpent (didn't tailor for him--didn't know we'd be playing each other). The Wraith Knight's D only accounted for one vehicle (the Land Raider Prometheus, merely wrecking it) before it was held up by a lone TH/SS Sergeant for 6 rounds of close combat...because he kept making his 3++ and I couldn't roll a '6' on the Stomp table. The Webstriking Scyethguard accounted for 3 Death Company and 2 hull points (1?) on a Vindicator. The rest of the vehicles were taken out by the Wave Serpent (side armor on a Vindicator), Falcons (hello, Pulse Lasers!), and Fusion Guns.

So, yeah, Mech and low-model-count lists are far less viable, but if you control for delivery methods (Cloudstrike, Deep Striking Raiders, Webstriking <-- Webway Portal), only the Wraith Knight remains a threat. Granted, it's a gigantic threat.

I personally think a modification of the D chart would be the best answer. Simply take away the 6 and make it less effective or do less damage.

I personally think removing D weapons from the standard game is the best answer.

With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

DCannon4Life wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

I play Sisters of Battle, and I disagree.

Whichever weapon or action the enemy takes to remove my models, if I roll a 6, it stays.
If a whole army can just roll 6s to save anything, then what is the issue of a weapon doing the reverse?

You still need to get that 6. I still need to roll 6s for the invuns.

 BlackTalos wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

I play Sisters of Battle, and I disagree.

Whichever weapon or action the enemy takes to remove my models, if I roll a 6, it stays.
If a whole army can just roll 6s to save anything, then what is the issue of a weapon doing the reverse?

You still need to get that 6. I still need to roll 6s for the invuns.

A 6 on the D chart does not allow invul saves so your sisters go away no matter how many dice you want to roll about it. There is no answer to a 6 on the D chart, just pick the model/unit up and pack them away, they have effectively been deleted from existence.

 BlackTalos wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

I play Sisters of Battle, and I disagree.

Whichever weapon or action the enemy takes to remove my models, if I roll a 6, it stays.
If a whole army can just roll 6s to save anything, then what is the issue of a weapon doing the reverse?

You still need to get that 6. I still need to roll 6s for the invuns.

My apologies: My post was sarcasm. People seem to find it easy to conceptualize the certainty of removing a model (or models) involved with a single die rolling a '6' (on the D table), which amounts to, what, ~16%? But people seem to find it difficult (or impossible) to conceptualize the certainty of removing a model (or models) involved with rolling dozens of dice that can be twin-linked, ignore cover, do an additional wound for every '6' that is rolled, etc. Or, as has been the case, they move the goal-posts, switching from an 'it's not interactive' argument to an 'it's undercosted' argument, avoiding a consistent application of 'interactive play'. /shrug

I'm not having trouble finding games where I play, and I am grateful for that.

 Ratius wrote:
Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

"And today I had a 4 hour lesson in how bad 40k is unbalanced"

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Sure all I need to do to have a chance against eldar players who bought one army and one codex, is to buy 2 or 3 army books and play those as a combo army instead of the IG which I want to play. Good argument. Also what stops eldar from taking the same kataphrons?

Makumba wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Sure all I need to do to have a chance against eldar players who bought one army and one codex, is to buy 2 or 3 army books and play those as a combo army instead of the IG which I want to play. Good argument. Also what stops eldar from taking the same kataphrons?

The fact your not Battle Brothers? And sorry you chose the army you play and really your trying to go that route. According to that logic it could also be easily said "man I wish I had access to over half of the books in the game like IoM" yeah, "great" argument on your part.

 Kain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

Alpha Legion chaos at that...

 agnosto wrote:
A 6 on the D chart does not allow invul saves so your sisters go away no matter how many dice you want to roll about it. There is no answer to a 6 on the D chart, just pick the model/unit up and pack them away, they have effectively been deleted from existence.

Indeed, just as: apart from a D-weapon, there is no answer to a 6 on my Invun, whatever strength, special rules, or re-rollabillity of your anti-Tank weapons on my Rhino.

However well you do on To Hit, To Wound, re-rolls, 7 on the damage table, 3D6 to pen armour, etc.... If i get my 6+ Invun on the Rhino, it stays on the board.
If the opponent gets a 6+ on the D Table, it's removed from the board.

Same thing.

Oh wait, not if it's a Super-heavy, or even inside a Void shield generator you discard that D-Hit... Then it doesn't even cause a single Wound! Does that make Void Shields Super-OP-so-unfair-you-have-one?

D Weaponry is Rock. You have Scissors, it's normal for you to complain. Maybe you should find some Paper

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

"And today I had a 4 hour lesson in how bad 40k is unbalanced"

Lesson took 4 hours? Did he repeat it 4 times? /boom!

Just kidding So far, I've only had one opponent straight up quit playing, but he wasn't a strong player in the first place (who infiltrates Stealth Suits 12" away from a Wraith Knight in ANY edition?).