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DCannon4Life wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

"And today I had a 4 hour lesson in how bad 40k is unbalanced"

Lesson took 4 hours? Did he repeat it 4 times? /boom!

LOL, touché

 Kain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

Have an exalt sir!

I really don't care to hear people complaining about Eldar using WWP for auto-wins etc. It's not like Eldar have the sole rights to the ally matrix. the new admech stuff, knights etc makes IoM lists have infinite destructive capabilities. c'est la vie. I don't want the D chart changed either (whether playing with it or against it), when I win/lose a game, I want to know it was versus the best the opponent could do...not some watered down version to not hurt my feelings.
there are MANY ways to play this game, all are justifiably right. I can tailor a list to be OTT or very casual with friends for a laid back match-up. I don't sign up for the WAAC guy membership as I think that's a dumb term.

Have Eldar D weapons impacted the game? Absolutely. It's fantastic. Gotta love when your opponent makes a luck roll and you get to remove your model with no saving roll of any kind. Saves you all the hassle of trying to take cover/jink/invulns. Pssshh, who needs'em. Lets just play 50+ model pick-up. Sounds like a better game, in my opinion. The game of the future.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
A 6 on the D chart does not allow invul saves so your sisters go away no matter how many dice you want to roll about it. There is no answer to a 6 on the D chart, just pick the model/unit up and pack them away, they have effectively been deleted from existence.

Indeed, just as: apart from a D-weapon, there is no answer to a 6 on my Invun, whatever strength, special rules, or re-rollabillity of your anti-Tank weapons on my Rhino.

However well you do on To Hit, To Wound, re-rolls, 7 on the damage table, 3D6 to pen armour, etc.... If i get my 6+ Invun on the Rhino, it stays on the board.
If the opponent gets a 6+ on the D Table, it's removed from the board.

Same thing.

Oh wait, not if it's a Super-heavy, or even inside a Void shield generator you discard that D-Hit... Then it doesn't even cause a single Wound! Does that make Void Shields Super-OP-so-unfair-you-have-one?

D Weaponry is Rock. You have Scissors, it's normal for you to complain. Maybe you should find some Paper

These rocks come in flamer form. WHERE IS YOUR PAPER NOW!?

Mustela wrote:
These rocks come in flamer form. WHERE IS YOUR PAPER NOW!?

You can't tell because of the awesome airbrush gradient job, but the paper is constructed of ceramite nanotubes.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Have Eldar D weapons impacted the game? Absolutely. It's fantastic. Gotta love when your opponent makes a luck roll and you get to remove your model with no saving roll of any kind. Saves you all the hassle of trying to take cover/jink/invulns. Pssshh, who needs'em. Lets just play 50+ model pick-up. Sounds like a better game, in my opinion. The game of the future.

It's almost as annoying as playing against the Decurion and watching my opponent roll multiple times, re-rolling ones, then not removing any casualties. Hooray for power creep!

Eldar D weapons for 60 odd points on arty, and inside transports with wraith has pretty much ruined playing games against eldar, so yeah I think they had exactly the impact that was expected.
The sad thing is it really brings arguments and damages the hobby. Eldar as an army should just be avoided by everyone, then maybe GW will proof read the next book.

The D guard remind me of something I once heard in a TV show:

"A lot of people think the word commando means super-hero, or at least something close to it. In the popular mind, they're thought of as the ultimate elite soldier, the solution to every problem. The fact is, a commando is just someone trained to fight under a specific set of circumstances. He's the guy you send in when there are more bad guys than good guys, when surprise is the only advantage you can get in an operation. When it works, commandos seem unstoppable. Those are the operations that make the papers. When it doesn't work, commandos get killed just as dead as anyone else."

Replace "commando" with "D guard" and "trained" with "equipped" and it pretty much sums up what I've experienced playing my brother's wraith list and seeing him play others. The D guard are either unstoppable, or get shot off the board very quickly before doing too much or even any damage. The result is always an extreme, but it's not always or even significantly more commonly in the Eldar's favor. And that's if they've had mobility support added with a WS or DS, otherwise they're kind of a joke. The WK is no joke and terrifying in it's own right, but really, he and I both think in a D guard heavy list the SC/SS option is better anyways; "Too much of a good thing" and all that.

I think the people who tend to harp on the D either don't get to play against it much or refuse to and don't have a lot of experience with it in action and then complain the loudest. That or they have no real mobility to deal with it, which is a legitimate problem for some armies, but that lack of mobility isn't going to hurt you solely against Eldar since mobility is a very important part of the game regardless.

I'd much, MUCH, rather face a D heavy wraith host then the scatterspam, Seer Council, Crimson Death list my brother has been tweaking. That is an absolute monster, and I don't think he's lost with it yet.

What army do you play? Because D absolutely wrecks any army that is reliant on vehicles, or small expensive models and limits the other person's playstyle. Do you like a decked out HQ? Sucks. Do you like transporting your mobs of troops? Sucks. Have that single prize vehicle? Sucks.

Gray Knights? Sucks Bye
Armored (Insert army here)? Sucks.
Tau? Sucks.

Not only does it kill some major armies, but even playstyles. The main defense against D is a host of bodies, but then you bring out the D templates, or large blast (Or Apoc Blast apoc storm, lulz) or etc.

I've played against D as Necrons. I used to enjoy bringing vehicles, or my Enclave, or etc. It's just stupid now. -And I understand that as the most resilient army, it must REALLY hurt people who play more fragile things. Might just go full Mechanicus soon, which wouldn't be terrible.

Large quantities of D is stupid. A person might find it more or less stupid than the general average floating around in a given community, but it is still, none the less, stupid, and I'd appreciate if you could just acknowledge that.

I already acknowledged what you said, very specifically. I said it can go in either way in both extremes and just that it always isn't in the Eldar's favor. Sometimes D heavy wrecks, sometimes it gets wrecked. Either people don't play it much and they don't know how to deal with it, or they don't have what is needed to deal with it. And then went on to give an example of something that was much more general steam roller to more lists in general. So I'd appreciate it if you acknowledged my acknowledgement I guess?

Well it has affected our meta by making the eldar players quit in frustration so yes.

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Have Eldar D weapons impacted the game? Absolutely. It's fantastic. Gotta love when your opponent makes a luck roll and you get to remove your model with no saving roll of any kind. Saves you all the hassle of trying to take cover/jink/invulns. Pssshh, who needs'em. Lets just play 50+ model pick-up. Sounds like a better game, in my opinion. The game of the future.

It's almost as annoying as playing against the Decurion and watching my opponent roll multiple times, re-rolling ones, then not removing any casualties. Hooray for power creep!

Well, we can't have that, now, can we? That would drag out the game. Thus, everyone play with "Auto-remove <insert model here>" guns! Speeds things up.

And while you're at it, just join me in playing X-wing.

 Ferros wrote:

Gray Knights? Sucks Bye

I remember not too long ago when Grey Knights did the same thing to Daemons... How the tables have turned.

More on topic, I've played games now with and without D weapons, and the only game I lost (out of only 3 so far, to be fair) was with the one where I brought a couple squads of wraithguard, 2 scatterbike units and a Wraithknight (amongst other things). The other two were Aspect heavy lists with only a single jetbike unit in each, and one had a melee wraithknight (which got plinked down by autocannon havocs turn 2 due to some unfortunate rolls from me) All 3 games were very close, like last turn dice roll close. Has D affected the game? Of course it has, but so have fortifications, the addition of Lords of War, and Grav weaponry. There are certain things that can't deal with D, and certain things that just laugh in its face. As someone else said earlier, I think a few Aspect Hosts loading up on Dark Reapers and/or Fire Dragons is just as terrifying as D spam, as you have the ability to deal with basically any type of list with it.

I think that whats been worse for the game then the D spam of Eldar has been all the people complaining about it before they've actually faced it, and decrying all Eldar players as soulless WAAC players regardless of what they're actually bringing. Let me tell you, it gets pretty old seeing people do the eye roll every time I bust out my Eldar army, even though I tend towards lists that keep in theme of my Alaitoc army, with at least a squad of rangers, and a bunch of aspect warriors running around. How about instead of vowing never to play against Eldar, we vow to not play against people who abuse the rules in general?

Or whatever, just jump on whoever's codex gets the OP treatment next. That's probably easier and more satisfying.

the only real issue is a culmination of GWs flexible ruleset that allows people to create all these so called "stars". D wrecks anything with a high points cost attached to it, but apart from a WWP, you know where they are and can take them down (glance a serpent to death). I take Suncannon Knight since I have wraithguard and he wrecks far more stuff than the D does, to the point where I'm going to stop using him until my opponents add better counters. D Guard are great but hvy weapons melt them easily. The same weapons that bring down their transports have a good chance of knocking out the occupants.
On the flip side, as an opponent, it does make you think twice about bringing that expensive 1 piece model to the game without some form of plan to take out the serpents. Nothing can be done about the WWP unfortunately unless you have a screen of cheap troops. I do believe that Grey Knights are extremely vulnerable to this so will need to ally with something to absorb the hits.
In all reality, d cannons would wreck a lot of these vehicles in the past anyway, it's just more of a guarantee now than it ever was. Takes away the thought process of risking a unit hoping it will survive...it won't (unless all 1s and 2s rolled). I guess that's one tactical advantage
I will not quit playing my Eldar (silliness...spent a lot of money on these models), but my playstyle is leaning more toward harlequins and dark eldar now anyway...lot's of squishy fun.

The D weapons aren't the biggest problem. Scatterbikes and Wraith Knights being Gargantuan are the two biggest offenders currently, as most of the D weapons in the codex are D-lite anyway.

Assuming they don't change drop pods just play Skitarii (normal or namely in the God Convocation of lets make these new models OP beyond reason so we sell them all) and then you can not only get rid of all the Eldar players in your area, you can also collect a super cheap Eldar army.

SilverSaint wrote:
Assuming they don't change drop pods just play Skitarii (normal or namely in the God Convocation of lets make these new models OP beyond reason so we sell them all) and then you can not only get rid of all the Eldar players in your area, you can also collect a super cheap Eldar army.

Unless you don't get first turn and the Eldar player wipes enough units off the board to reduce you below the 8+ for Canticles.

Because with how Canticles are set up, you're very reliant upon those numbers to keep Canticles at their best.

The primary impact D weapons have had here is to increase crying and make people not play against Eldar lists. They haven't actually had an in-game impact, because I haven't seen someone play against Eldar since the new codex dropped. People are just refusing to try, which is silly. As an Eldar player, other than 2 units of wraithguard with D-scythes that I had prior to the new codex, I don't own anything with D-weapons. Also, I'm far less interested in using the D-weapons than using several other things in the codex, like the new seer councils, aspect shrines and such. Still doesn't matter, because people auto-eyeroll and don't want to play against eldar because of all the online crying.

Yeah, that's why.

Because nobody ever bothered to try playing against them.
Ever.

Yup, nobody anywhere has actually played against them. Not a soul has tried it. Nobody has witnessed a game or read a battle report. Everyone everywhere is just refusing to play the new Eldar.

>_>
<_<

Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:
Assuming they don't change drop pods just play Skitarii (normal or namely in the God Convocation of lets make these new models OP beyond reason so we sell them all) and then you can not only get rid of all the Eldar players in your area, you can also collect a super cheap Eldar army.

Unless you don't get first turn and the Eldar player wipes enough units off the board to reduce you below the 8+ for Canticles.

Because with how Canticles are set up, you're very reliant upon those numbers to keep Canticles at their best.

Not really. Of the canticles two really matter, shroudpsalm and benediction of the omniscience. Outside of those 2 canticles the others are just icing on the cake or are really specific. Of those two only shroudpsalm cares about 8+ as for all intensive purposes benediction at 4-7 is the same as 8+ since the entire army will be BS4+ besides the Kataphrons. When you go second vs a alpha strike shooting list, yes shroudpsalm does becomes significantly worse, moving from the best army buff in the game to pretty good.

Due to drop pods/Knight/general list setup its incredibly hard to reduce the Convocation below 8 units on Turn 1, not that it even matters that much and being below 8 is almost irrelevant after Turn 1. If the Eldar go first they probably aren't killing 3+ units entirely, probably the dragoons and rust stalkers at most assuming they are easily visible in ruins.

 Orock wrote:
Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

That's the gist of what people are saying.
It's not one thing alone, its ALL the other stuff Eldar have as well.

CaptainSuperglue wrote:Eldar D weapons for 60 odd points on arty, and inside transports with wraith has pretty much ruined playing games against eldar, so yeah I think they had exactly the impact that was expected.
The sad thing is it really brings arguments and damages the hobby. Eldar as an army should just be avoided by everyone, then maybe GW will proof read the next book.

Somebody tied to start a movement for that back when the Eldar rumors first hit. Spoilers: it didn't go well (And I know you're reading this, poster-who-will-not-be-named )

MWHistorian wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

That's the gist of what people are saying.
It's not one thing alone, its ALL the other stuff Eldar have as well.

I agree that the D-weapons and Scatbikers and Wraithknights are bad, but those are for the most part the only standouts.

The Crimson Death is probably undercosted for what it can do; it would make more sense if it used the Crimson Hunter's old cost, so it would be 400 points vs. 340.

The Seer Council is powerful. but two things have to be kept in mind:
1=Cost. The formation costs 235 points minimum to up to 500+ points depending on the number of Warlocks and how much you're into jetbikes.
2=Limitations. None of the ICs can leave this formation, so there's an incentive for adding bodies to it. The runes of the farseer is powerful, but forces a re-roll of the entire result, increasing the chance of perils and not necessarily increasing the chance of a success, even on an 3+. Also, this formation cannot stand alone. It needs an additional CAD or Warhost to be effective, increasing its overall cost.

I fail to see why people are complaining about the Aspect Host. It requires a significant investment in terms of points to be effective, and also can't stand alone as an army. The only problems with it are people spamming the same Aspect and taking it in a CAD. If people are having trouble killing Aspect Warriors, I don't know what to tell them.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The runes of the farseer is powerful, but forces a re-roll of the entire result

This isn't true at all, you can choose any number of dice as per the rule...its not just a re-roll.

I wonder if the people complaining about D-strength weapons now are the same ones who were complaining about the introduction of escalation and lords of war into normal games of 40k. The one seems quite the natural counter to the other.

Personally, I don't mind it. I play the numbers game instead of superman-hammer.

That being said, the rest of the army wrecks face and the points cost of the D cannons means the eldar have shifted our local meta without having to give up effectiveness to do so.

 Kain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

Thanks for the laugh. I feel like I have to give a bit of a back story. I started playing with the Dark Vengeance boxset with a friend. He went chaos and I went DA back in 6th edition. My brother came over and decided (after some review) to choose Eldar because he liked the elitist attitude of the Eldar and got the book around the launch date of the book in 6th edition. My brother liked Iyaden because of all the wraith models and built up a massive army around that. He also got a few bikes for the lols. After my brother posted some models on FB one of his friends decided to pick up Tau because they look like mechs and focused on Riptides and broadsides. The two of them played with us and eventually one of my brother's friends decided to play and picked up the Necron (army of killer t1000) and one of my work friends went orks because of the WAAAAGGGH!

My brother and his tau friend have an arms race with min/maxing the lists to the best potential because they face each other often, and whenever they face Chaos/DA have more than enough guns to bear as a result. 7th edition comes by and the Necron and Eldar are buffed up. So I've played more than my share of Tau/Eldar alliance or Tau/Necron or Necron/Eldar. As such I've learned the hard way to sacrifice models to achieve objectives and have had more than my share of losses.

That game was a bit of the young vs old (DA/Chaos/Orks) are the older of the group and I knew I was going to get slaughtered.
Recalling the list it was something like this:

DA (ravenwing)
-Sam on jetbike /w command squad & apothecary
-bike squad w/ 2x meltas
-bike squad w/2x melta
-Culexus assassin

Orks
-Warboss
-bunch of grots
-a lot of killa kans w/ flamers
-squad of lottas
(I'm not too familiar with the orks)

Chaos (unbound)
Chaos sorcerer (Telepathy?)
3 groups of Obliterators

VS

Eldar
-Spiritseer
-Farseer (Santic?)
-wraithguard
-wraithknight w/ wraithcannon

Necron
- Decurion

Tau
-Crisis suits w/ missles
* I don't recall what build it was but I remember that it was a TON of shots that went towards my bikes constantly until I was tabled.

Basically, it was an Eternal war mission. Necron went after the ork player, Tau took me on and Eldar vortexed and deep attempted to deep strike on chaos side.

EDIT: I went ravenwing for the match against my chaos friend and only had ravenwing /w assassin w/ 2x vindicators and knew that I would be the one scoring points due to the mobility. Chaos player didn't have any of his fliers or deamons and the ork player was trying a new list. The list was 3k point on each side (from what I recall).

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

That's the gist of what people are saying.
It's not one thing alone, its ALL the other stuff Eldar have as well.

That wasn't what people WERE saying. The main gripe when the codex came out was D-weapons and scatbikes. Now, granted, scatbikes are very good. Are they better than serpent spam from last edition? I'm not convinced. That said, it wasn't until AFTER people realised that D-weapons aren't actually as devastating as anticipated, because they're all on platforms that are severely limited in some way(ie, Wraithknight can only hit a max of 2 models per turn, so useless against infantry, d-cannons are vulnerable to melee attacks and lack range/mobility, and wraithguard can be killed fairly easily by AP3 weapons or tied up in melee) that people started to claim other aspects of the book were what they're complaining about. BS5/WS5 aspect warriors? Yeah, they're good. They're also expensive and all S3/T3. For a similar price to WS5 Striking Scorpions, you can get S4/T5 Space marine bikers(or White scars bikers with S5 hammer of wrath, and obsec if you take Khan). Are the eldar aspects good? Yes. They're finally a decent representation of what they're supposed to be. They're semi-immortal beings who have dedicated their lives to perfecting a particular warrior aspect. They've developed their skill to levels far beyond what even most space marines could hope to attain. But they're still eldar, hence the S3/T3, and balance. From a pure statistics perspective, I'd personally rather have the space marine bikers than the scorpions.

And for those comparing prices:

5x Striking Scorpions w/Exarch & Scorpion's Claw - 125 points
5x White Scars Space Marine Bikers w/Sarge & Power Fist - 130 points

If only looking at rules, I'd take the space marines any day of the week. Are other things in the Eldar codex good? Sure. But they're not far and away better than other things available to many other armies.So let's stay on topic here. People are/were upset about scatbikes, and D-weapons/Wraithknights. Any other complaining is just grasping at straws for something else to complain about as their arguments claiming the massive superiority of D-weapons begin to unravel against the forces of reality.

Anything that D weapons are hurting, we've already gotten used to from fighting Knights.

D Cannon weapons platforms are rough, but a small blast, with full scatter indirect (as it usually goes) isn't so terrifying.

But i haven't f aced wraithguard yet.

But just the way the game has been going the last few years, I kind if expect a unit to dissappear with one good shooting phase. MSU disposable units to the rescue!