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I think it's the overall book that people are disliking. The vast majority of players play SM or something within the IoM which would struggle against an Eldar list. Other players play less powerful Xenos armies and can't think of ways around certain meta parts of the Eldar Codex.
I understand that D strength weapons aren't the end all be all but they are something that can change the entire meta of the game and when you add bikes, transports, fliers, psychers etc. (each things that change the meta of the game) you find that the Eldar have come out on way on top.
I know they are T3 models but what weakness does the Eldar codex have that is not overcome easily by another aspect in the same codex. Assume you have multiples of all the models in your codex. You can field anything you want within your codex and you're facing an eldar player that can also do that. Unless you list tailor you're going to have a hard time to win against their codex and even if you do list tailor you may find that it's still a tough fight because of all the game mechanics that can be exploited by a skilled Eldar player.
What other codex do you know what can remove a multi wound model without any saves of any kind? If each codex got access to something that would do strength D it'd be a bit more balanced.
Do I think the book is broken? Not yet (but I haven't played enough against it) but I can see it being equivalent of bringing Anderson Silva to fight a GW store rep. Can the store rep win? Sure. Will he/she win? Unlikely. Will the store rep complain? Of course!

I played a cheese list, and still managed a close game and I use CSM as my primary.

I played a fluff Eldar list, and won through a forfeit.

But i don't use vehicles, and make sure every unit I field is disposable.

We'll see how the meta shifted (if anything) next time there's a tournament

 Inkubas wrote:
I think it's the overall book that people are disliking. The vast majority of players play SM or something within the IoM which would struggle against an Eldar list. Other players play less powerful Xenos armies and can't think of ways around certain meta parts of the Eldar Codex.

I disagree, and have demonstrated multiple army lists from multiple factions that can stand up to multiple wraithknights and a wide range of other eldar and non-eldar lists. Without list tailoring, I could make SM or IG TAC lists that would perform well vs. both WK eldar and a wide range of other lists. I am an Eldar/Dark Eldar player, and went undefeated with Eldar through 6th Edition, and only lost once with DE. I'm not super-experienced in playing IG or SM, but I know their rules, as any good enemy should, and am confident that I could play against most naysayers here with their own army, while letting them play with my Eldar, and beat them. It's more about knowing what units can do, how much they cost, and what can/can't kill them effectively.

As an example, it seemed as though tarpitting had fallen out of favor through 6th edition, in my opinion. But it is something that many more people should consider to be a cheap alternative to "beating" overpowered individual units in 7th. If you can tie up 700 points of your opponent's units with 300 points of your own for the entire game...sure, maybe you didn't "beat" the unit in the traditional sense, but in the end, you lost access to 400 points LESS than what your opponent lost. With a 400 point advantage on your opponent now, that's a pretty good equalizer. People don't always appreciate how amazing some of the small things their army has access to is. Like 3 point conscripts for IG, with 25 point commissars that can make a blob of 50 of them fearless. 175 points for 51 fearless objective secured models. I'd run as many of these units as I could fit on the table. It's incredibly difficult to peel off 51 fearless models, even when they're conscripts. And with obsec, it doesn't matter if they're doing good in that fight on the objective, so long as they're IN that fight on the objective. They can tie up plenty, and would be amazing for Eldar, who's cheapest troop is triple that cost. I seriously considered starting a new IG army when I accepted the challenge of making an IG list that could stand up to Eldar. IG have some really amazing stuff. Unfortunately, when I started adding up the price to purchase the models and the time to paint them all up appropriately, I gave up on the idea of starting IG too. Just too much commitment.

Almost every other army also has good stuff, and can stand up to Eldar. The majority of battle reports I've seen regarding the new Eldar have resulted in Eldar Victories, but they've largely been "close" victories. And this is in line with ANY new codex. Generally, when a new codex comes out that isn't nerfed into oblivion *cough*DarkEldar*cough*, people tend to win with it at first. A big part of the reason for that is, people playing the new eldar codex are probably fairly familiar with the rules in their own army. Other non-eldar players likely haven't spent nearly as much time with the rules, or playing against them to fully know everything they do. So the newness factor is typically an advantage for whoever is playing the new codex, of any faction.

That said, I'm an Eldar player, but many of the things other factions have makes me flush with envy too. It's natural. It doesn't mean the other guy is OP, but that is often the kneejerk reaction any time something new and different comes along in the 40k community.

How do you tarpit anything eldar with IG, when all their stuff is much faster? I play against eldar a lot, and most of the games I play look like one of those two things. My opponent starts blows up my chimeras and then I am too slow to get on to objectives and he kills everything else while staying out of range of most of my stuff, depending on luck by turn 2-3 the game is done. Or I start move on to objectives, with luck get some points, and then he blows up my chimeras and vet squads and the same happens as If I he had started.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I think it's the overall book that people are disliking. The vast majority of players play SM or something within the IoM which would struggle against an Eldar list. Other players play less powerful Xenos armies and can't think of ways around certain meta parts of the Eldar Codex.

I disagree, and have demonstrated multiple army lists from multiple factions that can stand up to multiple wraithknights and a wide range of other eldar and non-eldar lists. Without list tailoring, I could make SM or IG TAC lists that would perform well vs. both WK eldar and a wide range of other lists. I am an Eldar/Dark Eldar player, and went undefeated with Eldar through 6th Edition, and only lost once with DE. I'm not super-experienced in playing IG or SM, but I know their rules, as any good enemy should, and am confident that I could play against most naysayers here with their own army, while letting them play with my Eldar, and beat them. It's more about knowing what units can do, how much they cost, and what can/can't kill them effectively.

As an example, it seemed as though tarpitting had fallen out of favor through 6th edition, in my opinion. But it is something that many more people should consider to be a cheap alternative to "beating" overpowered individual units in 7th. If you can tie up 700 points of your opponent's units with 300 points of your own for the entire game...sure, maybe you didn't "beat" the unit in the traditional sense, but in the end, you lost access to 400 points LESS than what your opponent lost. With a 400 point advantage on your opponent now, that's a pretty good equalizer. People don't always appreciate how amazing some of the small things their army has access to is. Like 3 point conscripts for IG, with 25 point commissars that can make a blob of 50 of them fearless. 175 points for 51 fearless objective secured models. I'd run as many of these units as I could fit on the table. It's incredibly difficult to peel off 51 fearless models, even when they're conscripts. And with obsec, it doesn't matter if they're doing good in that fight on the objective, so long as they're IN that fight on the objective. They can tie up plenty, and would be amazing for Eldar, who's cheapest troop is triple that cost. I seriously considered starting a new IG army when I accepted the challenge of making an IG list that could stand up to Eldar. IG have some really amazing stuff. Unfortunately, when I started adding up the price to purchase the models and the time to paint them all up appropriately, I gave up on the idea of starting IG too. Just too much commitment.

Almost every other army also has good stuff, and can stand up to Eldar. The majority of battle reports I've seen regarding the new Eldar have resulted in Eldar Victories, but they've largely been "close" victories. And this is in line with ANY new codex. Generally, when a new codex comes out that isn't nerfed into oblivion *cough*DarkEldar*cough*, people tend to win with it at first. A big part of the reason for that is, people playing the new eldar codex are probably fairly familiar with the rules in their own army. Other non-eldar players likely haven't spent nearly as much time with the rules, or playing against them to fully know everything they do. So the newness factor is typically an advantage for whoever is playing the new codex, of any faction.

That said, I'm an Eldar player, but many of the things other factions have makes me flush with envy too. It's natural. It doesn't mean the other guy is OP, but that is often the kneejerk reaction any time something new and different comes along in the 40k community.

This would be a more compelling argument if you could tarpit anything Eldar with IG scripts.

Scripts can tarpit anything but A) super mobile things that don't care about them, or B) Superheavies, as on average a stomp attack will remove 20-25 of them, and can even target and isolate the commissar.

There's really no reason anything useful the Eldar have should get tarpitted by conscripts. They just have to plop barrage D weapons on the commissar and poof, blob is no more.

I think you're doing stomp wrong. No way are you getting 12+ models under each blast template.

Makumba wrote:
How do you tarpit anything eldar with IG, when all their stuff is much faster? I play against eldar a lot, and most of the games I play look like one of those two things. My opponent starts blows up my chimeras and then I am too slow to get on to objectives and he kills everything else while staying out of range of most of my stuff, depending on luck by turn 2-3 the game is done. Or I start move on to objectives, with luck get some points, and then he blows up my chimeras and vet squads and the same happens as If I he had started.

Solution: Stop playing Maelstrom. It's really not a very balanced mission style, and makes a game that already relies on dice even more luck-based.

Further, I completely disagree with your entire style of building an IG army. Not saying it's bad, it's just not my style at all, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time telling you how to make YOUR build work. Instead, here's how I'd make IG work in general: They're a gunline army. So form a gunline. They have plenty of 48" range weapons to sit in the back. Use them in your own deployment zone to rain death upon the enemy without moving your troops. In my opinion, there should basically be 2 types of things in your IG list:
1. Things with 36"-48" weapons that are basically stationary in your gunline, likely getting a cover save from aegis and/or camo gear.
2. Cheap hordes of models that you use to footslog up the board to contest objectives.

Using the above method, you force your opponent to either shoot at your devastating gunline that likely has a 3+ cover save all around, thus allowing your cheap obsec infantry to march towards objectives, OR they focus a bunch of firepower on killing 3 point models, in which case your devastating gunline gets to fire on the enemy unmolested.

If I was an IG player, the words "Veterans" wouldn't be in my vocabulary. They're a trap. A points sink. Same with their transports, because they're transporting something like vets. And if they're transporting anything other than vets, then you're not making your squads of guardsmen or conscripts big enough. Chimera are cheap enough to take them, but I'd never actually use them as a transport. I'd just unlock them as a dedicated transport and use them as an additional obsec unit that could move upfield to contest objectives and shoot at infantry.

@the_scotsman: Yeah, they shouldn't be taking that many off to stomps, and further, you can definitely tarpit and area deny with conscripts. With 2 full units of conscripts, I can string them out across the table by the end of turn 2, in a pattern where there is nothing anywhere on the table that couldn't be reached by them on turn 3. You just have to be willing to recognise them for exactly what they are: Completely expendable units who's job is to lock down objectives and/or tarpit enemy models. This means you'll line them up strung out at the very edge of your deployment zone to begin with. Don't bother looking for cover. If your opponent shoots at them, he's doing you a favor. If you do things this way, when you DO charge something like a WK, your squad will be strung out across the board, and so will not be close enough or clumped enough for many to be killed by stomps. It will take a pretty fair amount of time for them to all get within range to participate in the combat, and that's the entire point. You'd use their distance, numbers, and pseudo fearlessness to tarpit. If a table was big enough, a full squad of conscripts with a Commisar could form a 10 foot long conga line.

2. Cheap hordes of models that you use to footslog up the board to contest objectives.

How do I do that? Even if they run, it takes two turns to get on to an objectives when footslogging. And most armies kill 20-30 geq per turn. I would have to send 40 or more of them to be on an objective for one turn. And while my dudes are walking my opponent has 2 turns to get VPs for sitting on objectives from turn 1.

I don't get how you charge a WK, it is much faster. The only way for it to be in melee is, if it was a sword one and near your tanks and even then the constripts have to survive two turns of shoting to try to tar pit one, a ft er that they still have to deal with stomp. And it is still just one knight, there could be more or there could be a unit of flamer WGs or Spiders to kill enough of them to get to the commisssar and break them.

Yes, considerate eldar players are avoiding them and thereby making us aware of just how much other ridiculous stuff is hidden inside those 160 pages...

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

Bad Eldar player?

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

Bad Eldar player?

Given the number of shots you'd need on average to down a Jinking Wave Serpent, you'd need like five full Tankbusta units to bring down two in one turn on average (72 Rokkits, 24 hit, 12 HP's inflicted against AV12, 4+ jink reduces that to 6HP's inflicted betweeen 2 Wave Serpents), and that's assuming the Tankbusta's have range with 24" Rokkits, unless the Wraith units were trying to footslog, in which case, the Eldar player isn't making an overwhelmingly strong list, and sure, those Wraith units are going to die absurdly quickly.

My sisters of battle want the D.

ninepaces wrote:
My sisters of battle want the D.

Well I'm glad I play as Orks when it comes to D weapons. I fear ranged weapons with high rates of fire and especially if an army can field lots of them......*glares at scatterbikes*

Makumba wrote:

And while my dudes are walking my opponent has 2 turns to get VPs for sitting on objectives from turn 1.

If this is true, then you ignored the very first sentence of my post to you, which is: Don't play Maelstrom missions. Boycott them. They simply aren't a balanced game style. They involve too much luck, and favor armies that have lots of skimmers/jetbikes, such as Eldar and DE. It's not a fair game mode. Encourage your friends to play Eternal war missions instead.