Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!

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**ProfessorSinu**

Just got one of their inserts they send out with all product orders advertising their open-house in late April. Looks like Robotech RPG tactics is on the list of events planned.

**Forar**

I believe there was some chatter about that on PB's forums or one of the groups. No longer having access to the license seems to mean that they can't sell the games anymore (among other things, it's not an exhaustive list), but there's no reason they can't run some games there anyways.

Yes, obviously, running games makes for a good way to advertise and sell product, and doing so without product to sell isn't a terribly effective use of time and space, but if turnout is even as high as it was last time, I'm guessing a half dozen game boards with much of the heavy lifting done by fans/friends/volunteers is more about use of space than anything.

Same with Gencon. It'll be interesting if they continue to give enough of a gak to run those in August, or if they'll be done with having the remotest pretense of giving a feth. I wouldn't be surprised if some fan took it upon themselves to run a series of small events, as fans have been driving progress further and faster than PB has in years, but aside from some dusty Rifters, I doubt there'll be much in terms of prize support. Maybe some fridge art? I dunno.

At the same time, PB continuing to show their same lukewarm support of a now dead game would be a pretty much perfect encapsulation of this whole fiasco.

**n815e**

I wonder if Wayne is above being tripped at the curb by Kevin.

**Merijeek**

Forar wrote:
I believe there was some chatter about that on PB's forums or one of the groups. No longer having access to the license seems to mean that they can't sell the games anymore (among other things, it's not an exhaustive list), but there's no reason they can't run some games there anyways.

I wonder how many boxes they'll sell at Open House? You know, ones that they hadn't gotten around to destroying them yet.

**winterdyne**

However many they sell, it's still not going to be enough.

They need to get ahead of the refunding situation - not making a damn good effort to honour this will get the FTC and AG rolling in short order. They're definitely watching.

**Alpharius**

winterdyne wrote:
However many they sell, it's still not going to be enough.

They need to get ahead of the refunding situation - not making a damn good effort to honour this will get the FTC and AG rolling in short order. They're definitely watching.

They are?

Interesting - please do tell us more!

**cannonfodr**

So skimming through PB's comments on the kickstarter, I found this (emphasis mine). Re-reading this, it could now be interpreted that they spent all the money banking on wave 1 and the future expansions includes wave 2. Back then, I thought they meant Southern Cross/Invid.

This endeavor already made them $1.44 Million Dollars; plus up to another 100% in backerkit bonuses. So with potentially anywhere from $2 Million to $3 Million already in their pockets - they don't necessarily have to rush to give a product that's already been paid for.” I just caught this last night, and feel the need to respond and clear something up. We are NOT sitting on a giant pile of money. After Amazon/Kickstarter fees (8-10%) and the usual 1-2% of backers whose payments didn't go through, the total wasn't much more than $1.3 mil. Then HG and ND get their cuts, and what's left over has to pay not only for manufacturing, but the cost of shipping the goods to all of you fine people (a LOT of whom are overseas). The BackerKit added to that, for sure, but a successful pledge manager is generally expected to add about 10% on top of the Kickstarter total. We did pretty close to that (slightly over). Nowhere near 100% (I wish)! The bottom line is, we're not going to make much, if any, profit from this project until the game is selling in retail. And most of THAT is going to be put back into development and manufacture of future expansions. --Wayne

**winterdyne**

Alpharius wrote:
winterdyne wrote:
However many they sell, it's still not going to be enough.

They need to get ahead of the refunding situation - not making a damn good effort to honour this will get the FTC and AG rolling in short order. They're definitely watching.

They are?

Interesting - please do tell us more!

Specifically, the MI AG office have been helpful in combining previous complaint, requesting a rebuttal to previous response etc, as opposed to the usual situation of 'file and forget'.
Manually written emails too (albeit fairly brief), not automated. With the previous complaint IIRC, I don't think they directly responded to anything I said.

I suspect the volume of complaints and sheer size of the debt we're looking at are significant factors in this.

I stand ready to be corrected, but to my knowledge, even assuming a pretty generous (to PB) debt per backer of about $90 on average, this is the single largest kickstarter failure to deliver where the project funding goals were hit. Ever. In any field. History to be made, people.

**techsoldaten**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Albertorius wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Along with saying that they'd finally provide refunds if they ever couldn't deliver.

These are bad business practices, but fraud means taking the money and using it for another purpose.

From everything I've read, they actually engaged with partners on the design and fabrication of the miniatures. Miniatures were actually produced and shipped, just not everything they promised.

Again, is there any evidence of actual fraud, or is this just Internet outrage?

**TalonZahn**

Well, without opening the books, no one here can say with 100% certainty that Fraud was commuted.

It seems very suspicious that since the KS funded, they pumped out more books for their other lines in 2 years than they did in the previous decade.

@techsoldaten - This is the wrong place for you to espouse any type of defense for their actions, perceived or real. You will NOT be met with much kindness for what appears to be defending Palladium.

**Albertorius**

techsoldaten wrote:
These are bad business practices, but fraud means taking the money and using it for another purpose.

Not sure what definition of fraud are you using, but the one from law is "fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right".

Seeing as the indications are that Palladium Books has been lying to us for years, knowingly, to avoid returning the money they got from us... (that legal right, there) yeah, you could probably call it "fraud".

**Alpharius**

Good point.

Because they have seemingly just admitted that they've known for (x) *years* that they couldn't deliver Wave 2, they've previously said that they'd give cash refunds for stuff if they 'fail to deliver' anything, but yet they've essentially now said 'no refunds for anyone! Product only!'.

Something does in fact seem to be...fraudulent here.

But yes, it will take a court case to determine and enforce anything.

**Morgan Vening**

techsoldaten wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Albertorius wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Nothing I've read suggests any kind of fraud occurred, but I haven't really dived in too deep. Is there anything specific you can point me to?

Multiple years of lying about the money spent?

Along with saying that they'd finally provide refunds if they ever couldn't deliver.

These are bad business practices, but fraud means taking the money and using it for another purpose.

From everything I've read, they actually engaged with partners on the design and fabrication of the miniatures. Miniatures were actually produced and shipped, just not everything they promised.

Again, is there any evidence of actual fraud, or is this just Internet outrage?

Proof? No. And until a court orders the books open, there likely won't be. As bad a businessman as Kevin is, he doesn't appear to be stupid enough to publicly display fraud, without being ordered to do so.

Evidence? Plenty, of a more circumstantial nature. For a start, the numbers don't add up, based on what was already revealed in PB messages. Just off the top of my head, they declared ~47K in advertising and promotion. That seems excessive, given a) they only initially asked for 70K to fund the campaign, b) there doesn't appear to be much evidence of advertising or expensive promotions during the campaign, and c) money spent on advertising the game for retail is NOT a legitimate expenditure. At BEST, any money spent on advertising or promotion after September 9th 2013 is misuse, if not misappropriation, or outright fraud. The other numbers claimed on the "pie chart" are also of questionable authenticity, given prior statements by Palladium staff.

We know that at the time, PB needed about 6-7K core boxes to cover the backer rewards. And despite being heavily cash strapped prior to the campaign, they ordered an additional 10-11K for retail. Even at $10 per core, that's $100K+. For a company that gets ecstatic when they sell 120 copies of a $25 new release book, at a convention where attendance is likely to easily been quadruple that (for the booth alone). Palladium's monetary issues are well known. They may not be perpetually broke, but they've never been flush either. Though the several prior crowdfunded books going to the printers about the time PB got the money from Kickstarter, should raise some eyebrows, especially as Kevin is on record as saying it would firm up the finances of PB.

The costs PB claim for importation only make sense if it was for the entire load. I'll break this one down.

PB's pie chart says 14% of the funding was spent on importation, and the domestic and international shipping of backers rewards.
14% of $1.583M = ~$221,688 as the actual number.
PB have prior claimed publicly that domestic and international shipping was in the $150K range. I don't have a direct cite at the moment, but it definitely exists.
$221K - $150K = ~$71K as the cost of importation.
Palladium said that there were 9 shipping containers were needed for RRT. Update #165
PB received 5834 cartons, each containing 3 boxes of RRT. Update #155. That's 17,500 boxes of RRT.
The campaign shows as approximately 6500 boxes needed for backer fulfillment. Add on another 1000 boxes for backerkit additions. PB claims only $120-$150K was raised in the backerkit, so it's unlikely to be that much more.
I think it's safe to assume that Battlecry bags and expansion sets for backers took up no more disproportionate room than expansion sets for retail sale.
So, the proportion of those containers for Kickstarter backers is about 43%.
Meaning that no more than 4 containers were needed for the importation of the Kickstarter backers.
9 containers costing almost 8K apiece to import and ship to Michigan seems inflated based on most estimates I've seen (it's about $2-3K from a port in China to Port of Los Angeles)
4 containers costing almost 18K apiece, is completely unrealistic even by the worst estimates ever.

Is that proof? No. But it's suspicious enough that it warrants further investigation, rather than accepting a known liar and exaggerator (and the people he oversees) at his word, when they've got every reason to lie.

Not that it really matters. As PB have admitted to in private conversation, and in a public statement, they owe backers refunds for any goods they are unable to deliver. How they spent the money is irrelevant to that cause. Fraud claims just make it more likely that there are extended consequences if Palladium don't do what they're obligated to do. At which point, feth them.

Now, don't get me wrong. If there's a full investigation by an impartial investigator, and there's been found to be no malfeasance whatsoever, then I have no problem with Kevin not facing criminal or personal financial losses (beyond his company, ie, house, personal accounts, etc). But the company still owes backers several hundred thousand dollars. I have no issue with the company and all assets (including IP) being liquidated.

But I personally think for sure that impropriety happened.

EDIT : Figured several people would get there first. That's what I get for trying to be clever.

**JohnHwangDD**

winterdyne wrote:
I stand ready to be corrected, but to my knowledge, even assuming a pretty generous (to PB) debt per backer of about $90 on average, this is the single largest kickstarter failure to deliver where the project funding goals were hit. Ever. In any field.

NOT EVEN CLOSE

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albertorius wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
These are bad business practices, but fraud means taking the money and using it for another purpose.

Not sure what definition of fraud are you using, but the one from law is "fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right".

Seeing as the indications are that Palladium Books has been lying to us for years, knowingly, to avoid returning the money they got from us... (that legal right, there) yeah, you could probably call it "fraud".

Lying about refunds is fraud, plain and simple.

**techsoldaten**

TalonZahn wrote:
@techsoldaten - This is the wrong place for you to espouse any type of defense for their actions, perceived or real. You will NOT be met with much kindness for what appears to be defending Palladium.

Yeah, I'm not trying to defend anyone. I'd really like to understand what happened.

Where I think we're going off is I consider this a learning experience. Businesses fail and sometimes it's an interesting story. Hard to sort out what actually happened with some of the noise.

**techsoldaten**

Morgan Vening wrote:
Proof? No. And until a court orders the books open, there likely won't be. As bad a businessman as Kevin is, he doesn't appear to be stupid enough to publicly display fraud, without being ordered to do so.

Evidence? Plenty, of a more circumstantial nature. For a start, the numbers don't add up, based on what was already revealed in PB messages. Just off the top of my head, they declared ~47K in advertising and promotion. That seems excessive, given a) they only initially asked for 70K to fund the campaign, b) there doesn't appear to be much evidence of advertising or expensive promotions during the campaign, and c) money spent on advertising the game for retail is NOT a legitimate expenditure. At BEST, any money spent on advertising or promotion after September 9th 2013 is misuse, if not misappropriation, or outright fraud. The other numbers claimed on the "pie chart" are also of questionable authenticity, given prior statements by Palladium staff.

We know that at the time, PB needed about 6-7K core boxes to cover the backer rewards. And despite being heavily cash strapped prior to the campaign, they ordered an additional 10-11K for retail. Even at $10 per core, that's $100K+. For a company that gets ecstatic when they sell 120 copies of a $25 new release book, at a convention where attendance is likely to easily been quadruple that (for the booth alone). Palladium's monetary issues are well known. They may not be perpetually broke, but they've never been flush either. Though the several prior crowdfunded books going to the printers about the time PB got the money from Kickstarter, should raise some eyebrows, especially as Kevin is on record as saying it would firm up the finances of PB.

The costs PB claim for importation only make sense if it was for the entire load. I'll break this one down.

PB's pie chart says 14% of the funding was spent on importation, and the domestic and international shipping of backers rewards.
14% of $1.583M = ~$221,688 as the actual number.
PB have prior claimed publicly that domestic and international shipping was in the $150K range. I don't have a direct cite at the moment, but it definitely exists.
$221K - $150K = ~$71K as the cost of importation.
Palladium said that there were 9 shipping containers were needed for RRT. Update #165
PB received 5834 cartons, each containing 3 boxes of RRT. Update #155. That's 17,500 boxes of RRT.
The campaign shows as approximately 6500 boxes needed for backer fulfillment. Add on another 1000 boxes for backerkit additions. PB claims only $120-$150K was raised in the backerkit, so it's unlikely to be that much more.
I think it's safe to assume that Battlecry bags and expansion sets for backers took up no more disproportionate room than expansion sets for retail sale.
So, the proportion of those containers for Kickstarter backers is about 43%.
Meaning that no more than 4 containers were needed for the importation of the Kickstarter backers.
9 containers costing almost 8K apiece to import and ship to Michigan seems inflated based on most estimates I've seen (it's about $2-3K from a port in China to Port of Los Angeles)
4 containers costing almost 18K apiece, is completely unrealistic even by the worst estimates ever.

Is that proof? No. But it's suspicious enough that it warrants further investigation, rather than accepting a known liar and exaggerator (and the people he oversees) at his word, when they've got every reason to lie.

Not that it really matters. As PB have admitted to in private conversation, and in a public statement, they owe backers refunds for any goods they are unable to deliver. How they spent the money is irrelevant to that cause. Fraud claims just make it more likely that there are extended consequences if Palladium don't do what they're obligated to do. At which point, feth them.

Now, don't get me wrong. If there's a full investigation by an impartial investigator, and there's been found to be no malfeasance whatsoever, then I have no problem with Kevin not facing criminal or personal financial losses (beyond his company, ie, house, personal accounts, etc). But the company still owes backers several hundred thousand dollars. I have no issue with the company and all assets (including IP) being liquidated.

But I personally think for sure that impropriety happened.

EDIT : Figured several people would get there first. That's what I get for trying to be clever.

These numbers sort of line up with what other people have been saying.

My understanding was the actual amount raised from the Kickstarter worked out to about $1.3 mil, after KS and a few other people had their take. I also heard about them importing 9 containers when only 3 - 4 were actually necessary.

Question: are those numbers about the kit in each container solid? Is that from PB themselves, or is that an estimate?

**Morgan Vening**

techsoldaten wrote:
These numbers sort of line up with what other people have been saying.

My understanding was the actual amount raised from the Kickstarter worked out to about $1.3 mil, after KS and a few other people had their take. I also heard about them importing 9 containers when only 3 - 4 were actually necessary.

Question: are those numbers about the kit in each container solid? Is that from PB themselves, or is that an estimate?

The Kickstarter raised close to the pledged amount. Amongst the 200+ Updates, a Palladium representative states that the amount of money lost in Kickstarter fees was about what they raised in the BackerKit (this was a statement made to counter someone saying they raised significantly more than that).

Not sure what the question is in regards to. Which numbers are you unsure on?

EDIT : Source on Backerkit addition amount of $150K (a little over 10% of funding is the amount given)

EDIT 2 : Source on the Wave 1 Shipping costs of ~$150K

**Alpharius**

Question: are those numbers about the kit in each container solid? Is that from PB themselves, or is that an estimate?

Pretty sure that number is straight from PB.

Now, whether or not it is true, well...

But at that time, I think they were still on a KS high and envisioning massive retail sales, so it probably is accurate.

**jul**

You don’t lose money on KS fees... they should have planned that as well as any other fees.
They just tried to justify, badly, their incompetence....

Anyway, do they still plan to attend Adepticon?
That might be a miserable sight or a funny one....

**warboss**

Well, I'm done... almost 5 years to the date that this all started. I decided to take the "offer" (in that mafia style can't refuse sort of way) just to get something for my remaining pledge amount despite the rougly 80% reduction in value they assigned to the wave 2 unlocks in the base pledges. Simply put.. I just wanted this whole thing over. I was one of the first backers (getting an early bird pledge) and the person who started and maintained the first Kickstarter thread here on dakka during the campaign and for a year afterwards. Whereas I wasn't as financially invested in this project as most people (my total pledge with add ons came in under the average), I was just as emotionally invested as a Robotech fan and ex-Palladium fan/gamer as anyone here. I've been suspended multiple times on the Palladium forum for speaking the truth (one ban for 3 months for someone else's post but NMI didn't care about that even after I pointed it out!) and been accused here on dakka of being both an anti-Palladium tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist and alternately a deep cover Palladium spy. I've created funny satirical pics during earlier dark times, been hopefully entertaining and quotable at others, and made some friends that otherwise I probably wouldn't have on dakka. I've bowed out for months to almost a year at a time on occasion from the thread but after four years of getting nothing but lies alternating with excuses with frequent long bouts of silence, I just wanted to cash out and close the door on this permanently.

The way I see it, I put in about $10 in shipping and got two blisters of models that otherwise I'd never have (and probably will never use) plus a couple boxes of the plastics that were under represented in wave 1. In case I ever meet someone will to play the game, I'll be able to entice them with some free models (at least until they open the package and see the ridiculous parts breakdown). I still wholeheartedly support anyone's efforts to seek a legal remedy for their loss and firmly believe that the fault for this entirely preventable mess lays (an apt homonym for lies) squarely on the shoulders of Palladium and more specifically it's founder/owner/operator Kevin Siembieda. Some here might look on that as giving up and look down on me for it (and I accept that) but I simply don't have the fight in me to wage another leap years worth of battles in this Crisis of RobotreacheryTM for the equivalent of the remaining parts of a base pledge and $80 in add ons. I do hope that those with more at stake though are up to the task and look forward to the day where you'll hopefully be able to declare victory.

**Forar**

Oh, Warboss, don't sell yourself short.

We KNOW you're a deep cover Palladium spy.

We just love you enough to keep you around all the same, you adorable rapscallion.

All kidding aside, I can't imagine faulting someone for taking an opportunity and bowing out. If the shipping weren't so absurd to Canada, I might even find myself gritting my teeth and getting some Limited figures as well. That, and of course the utter lack of interest I have in actually playing the game itself.

Take what you can, walk away, and find things that make you happy. In the end, life is too short to be eternally chained to some bullgak project and a couple hundred bucks (or whatever) in lost minis. While we can hope Palladium sees some consequences of their actions/inaction, backers shouldn't at all feel bad if they decide to take what they can get and cut loose.

**warboss**

Thanks! I doubt I'm the only person reading/posting here who took it but I figured I wanted to be honest about why I'll be largely sitting out of the discussion for the near future.

**cannonfodr**

warboss wrote:
Well, I'm done... almost 5 years to the date that this all started. I decided to take the "offer" (in that mafia style can't refuse sort of way) just to get something for my remaining pledge amount despite the rougly 80% reduction in value they assigned to the wave 2 unlocks in the base pledges.

I'm surprised you got a response. I suspect they're skimming each message and ignoring anything other than a straight up exchange request.

**Stormonu**

If they would have shipped Wave 1 for Wave 2 without charging shipping, I might have taken the offer up myself just to be finally out of this. Asking for shipping was a straw too much for me.

It's been a big relief to me that they've finally admitted defeat. I'm trying to make peace with myself that I'll never see the money back now, but it's tougher than I thought.

My final hope is simply that PB isn't able to walk away from this and keep paddling on. I am aghast that the consequences of their (in)actions haven't caught up to them, and honestly wonder if they ever will.

**Morgan Vening**

Latest PBWU is up. And Kevin makes a tacit admission.

"Robotech® has consumed most of this week for us. In case you haven’t yet heard, Palladium announced that despite our best efforts, we are unable to produce the Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave Two rewards and simply do not have the financial resources to offer cash refunds for remaining Robotech® RPG Tactics (RRT) Wave 2 pledges. Palladium is offering a refund in-kind by exchanging existing Wave One rewards for the remaining Wave Two pledges."

That's tough noogies for you, jackass. You obviously have money, as you're still operating as a business entity. That it's not enough to cover your debt, is irrelevant to your obligation and explicit promise to backers.

Adepticon is probably too close, but how about you bail on attending GenCon. That'll probably free up enough to pay back several dozen backers.

Your money problems as they relate to you remaining solvent, are not the backers problem. At the VERY least, a full accounting of how RRT funds were spent (with itemized receipts), and a full accounting of Palladium's assets and incomes, both from independent sources, to prove your assertion, is the minimum you should feel obligated to do.

Because, Kevin, we Do. Not. Trust. You.

**n815e**

I may have also accepted a "deal" if they didn't charge shipping and they didn't undervalue what they owe.
It was their last opportunity to make amends and they used it to take advantage.

**cirons**

I've been reading and i accepted with my $31 offer, but i haven't received a message back yet. I'm assuming they either haven't replied to anyone yet or they are doing the really big backers first. I messaged them originally 2 hours after they made the offer and still haven't heard back, so i'll be curious to see if warboss ever gets messaged back.

**warboss**

Stormonu wrote:It's been a big relief to me that they've finally admitted defeat. I'm trying to make peace with myself that I'll never see the money back now, but it's tougher than I thought.

My final hope is simply that PB isn't able to walk away from this and keep paddling on. I am aghast that the consequences of their (in)actions haven't caught up to them, and honestly wonder if they ever will.

Yeah, it's basically finally ripping the band aid off quickly instead of leaving that ragged, dirty thing on your scabbed over wound. My acceptance of the offer just means I'm giving up my legal claim to any other form of compensation but doesn't mean that I stopped hopping that Palladium will continue to feel the reprecussions to their bottom line and reputation. I genuinely hope that someone out there might recover the $10 I gave them for shipping as part of their own settlement in the future.

n815e wrote:It was their last opportunity to make amends and they used it to take advantage.

Agreed. The $10 in shipping likely represents the last money they'll ever see from me (the only exception being a massively discounted firesale of con "exclusives" after March 20th so I can get a legal squad of male power armors). I voluntarily skipped the Savage Rifts kickstarter despite my interest in an updated take on the IP and pledged $1.00 for the Rifts Board Game just to get the news as that inevitably went up in flames. They basically threw away a customer of almost 30 years with this (albeit that I waxed and waned in interest/spending over the years with the year around RRPGT's funding being the recent high point). I might have considered doing business with them in the future had they not devalued the base pledges remaining rewards by roughly 80% as that would have displayed honest contrition for their actions. Instead, they probably are hoarding the supplies for the post March 20th firesale where they yet again prioritize "new" customers over their most loyal just like with Gencon 2014.

cirons wrote:I've been reading and i accepted with my $31 offer, but i haven't received a message back yet. I'm assuming they either haven't replied to anyone yet or they are doing the really big backers first. I messaged them originally 2 hours after they made the offer and still haven't heard back, so i'll be curious to see if warboss ever gets messaged back.

I asked them about my pledge value the day of the announcement (with a followup message a few days later after their clarification updates). They took a week to respond to that initial email and they didn't read my followup message in the same thread which actually answered their short reply. I do actually believe them that they're swamped with both messages and fulfilling offers. They're an on site staff of maybe 3 people (Kevin, Alex, Charles) trying to deal with the aftermath of angering over 5,000+ customers simultaneously.

**evilsmurf**

In all seriousness, do you think they'll still try to do the rifts board game?

**Alpharius**

If they survive this mess?

I'd bet they'd be silly enough to try...