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I imagine they tell themselves "oh, we tried, ohhhh how we tried, but it all ended up a mess, and we put every penny into it!" ignoring that if they HAD somehow managed to produce wave two but had zero left over for shipping, they'd be in basically the same spot (perhaps praying for CSI to actually order some pallets to accrue money to ship everyone else's stuff?).

Like, this has gone so sideways for so long, it's amazing to look back over the copious statements of reassurance and 'things heating up' and "201_ is the year of Robotech!" to see that they'd been brazenly and flagrantly lying their asses off.

What are the chances people are accepting "The Deal" in hopes of selling off their stuff to get ANY money back.

EBay is a fickle bitch, seems like RRT stuff will sell for Retail one week and wholesale the next.

Anyone who tries that is a braver man/woman than I.

Seems like a gamble with a high chance of failure for quite some time as the market is flooded with excess product, and later on when the game is fully rotted away (we all know it's already mostly dead, barring a few rare muscle spasms), it's just a lost game with minimal interest and competition for models/figures across a variety of other products that don't require nearly as much effort to build (if any at all).

re: latest update.

Does anyone else feel like stuffing them around by putting in an order, then maybe changing the order once or twice, getting a shipping quote and then never paying?

Honestly, I think that kind of thing is immature and a waste of your time.
It also potentially hurts fellow gamers who are actually interested in getting some of this stuff and they don't deserve that.

 MangoMadness wrote:
re: latest update.

Does anyone else feel like stuffing them around by putting in an order, then maybe changing the order once or twice, getting a shipping quote and then never paying?

Palladium can'tr even process the straightforward orders. I imagine each one is being triple checked by Kevvy, Wayno, and Scooter in case a backer tries to cheat Palladium and claim more credit than they are being graciously offered.

As to selling the product... Man, it's probably going to be at least ten years before enough of it ends up in various landfills and people get nostalgic for the models again and might be willing to pay real money for them and the market isn't awash with the stuff.

I'm curious if anyone has an eye on PB's warehousing door, to see if any large containers of product are shipping out.

What I'm wondering is if PB is required to destroy unsold stock, is that also true of stock held by other retailers? Does the product go into moratorium, and then be required to be removed from retailers shelves? I doubt that. PB may have to destroy anything remaining on their premises (outside of product samples for internal record keeping), but anything 'out in the wild' can look forward to a safe, long life on the secondary market.

I would expect Palladium to have some mechanisms in place where bulk orders have been safely secured (and paid for) from gaming and clearance retailers, and can be safely legally claimed to be 'in transit' and out of PB's hands, even though they may be sitting on PB property. That certainly has to be the case, otherwise anyone who is waiting for their items to ship from the PB online store or the Kickstarter exchange debacle would expect their paid but unshipped orders to be destroyed.

I communicated to PB that an exchange was unacceptable to me, and politely demanded a refund. For the moment, I'm torn and tempted to order a couple of the remaining GHQ RRT minis. My contempt for the publisher is at war with my love for the subject matter and my appreciation of GHQ's workmanship. A Japanese robot rendered in actual heavy metal is a rare & beautiful thing these days, as any Old School mecha fan will tell you...

I can tell you now, I have not been so badly into "analysis paralysis" with my little situation.
I give a rundown to PB of what was owed and what I would want as well as an address update within the first couple days of the "deal" posting.

Then they make a few updates for the terms of said "deal".

I then send a message telling them that I am not sending credit card information over messaging AND with the terms changes I tell them never-mind I want my refund in money not trade as per the agreement.

Shortly after they tell me the "order" is picked and packed and awaiting payment.

The lawsuit facebook group is a wee bit volatile.
PB is well, PB and anything can happen if I send some $34 in shipping to get a wave 1 bonus pack and VT box.

All that is decided today, or is that in the next few days if my unpaid shipping order is wanted for retail?

What would you gentlemen do?
I agree that for those that want their stuff, keeping this in limbo is not fair.

I might have been tempted into the exchange if there was product available that I wanted and didn't already have in quantity. I missed the GHQ Quaedlunn-Rau model, unfortunately, and would like more of the metal pieces. And had the exchange values been more honest and fair, I might have cashed in. But then it also would have stunk less like a cheap bait-n-switch.

I'm more than willing to give an ambitious creator a break if they genuinely bumble a project because their ability exceeded their vision. I'm not willing to when it has been obvious they've been wizzing on my head for years and just telling me it's only raining.

I've done significant analysis, no more paralysis. (I like that phrase.

If you want a return on your dollar, consider the offered stuff worthwhile and can stomach the shipping, then the deal is likely your best return, unless PB's assets are worth significantly more than they appear.

If you're more in it for the principle, don't take the deal.

The FB group is under much better control now. We did have a bit of a wobble at the head so to speak, but we've made significant progress on a number of fronts, and are waiting to hear back from various parties. Main task running at the moment is still acquisition of data and more bodies to combine things up.

@Tal - I think it depends on the dollar value, and what you think you might get out of litigation (after fees and expenses). Either way, you're probably looking at pennies on the dollar.

The only way you get a full refund is if there is a finding of bad faith, which causes PB to pay damages in excess of legal fees on top of monies owed. That's not very likely.

The key question is whether you'd rather choose to see PB suffer through a trial and eat a little crow, or whether you're willing to throw good money after bad to get more Wave 1 product. If you already have enough Wave 1 product to last a lifetime, then more of "too much" is still "too much". Similarly, if you treat the Wave 2 credit as a sunk cost, would you have bought the Wave 1 product for the shipping fees.

Potentially punishing PB might prevent them from cheating others down the line, and there may be some satisfaction in that. Eventually.

Last day and I am still deciding. I could see myself returning to this project one day, because it's an IP I love (that's why I signed up to begin with). I don't think anyone else will pick this risky license up and other people are doing great things with their own designs to fill out the missing stuff.
It's not about getting perceived value in return, but more about ensuring that I can get the few additional boxes of models that I planned on getting before I stopped working on this.
It would also be nice to "let it go".

It's a struggle, though, because I also want to see PB held accountable.
I believe they have not only violated the agreement but have scammed us or committed fraud by taking money given for the project and using it to stock their warehouse, then subsequently lying to us about it for 3 years.
I don't expect a return of the money, they are barely staying open. I want to make sure that they face consequences for their actions, I don't want to see them get away with it.

So I am conflicted.

Regardless of whether you take the deal, if you aren't then at least email PB and tell them that you want your refund per the Ts&Cs in place at the time you pledged. Send that demand note, with a 7-day window for payment, and invoice them on PayPal. That way, you have written, third party evidence that you've declining their initial settlement offer and want them to conform to the contract they agreed to when they took your money. This will give you the option to take legal action and/or take them to collections down the line.

They don't owe me so much by their bizarre calculations. My pledge level and a couple of Backerkit add-ons would have provided me with most of the styles of model I wanted from the line. (I was primarily in it as a Macross model collector, rather than an active gamer.) Not getting the full assortment of model types I supported is my main loss and my primarily valuation for the project. A refund at a more realistic exchange value would have been more fair to me, because I could have then bought the couple more PB metals I might have wanted, then gone to Shapeways for masters of the models PB fumbled finishing.

Their valuation is based on their own financial woes, rather than an honest accounting of the value of the products.

It really is principal of accountability. I want it proven through legal discovery that Kevin "I AM PALLADIUM" Siembieda is NOT sitting on $750K worth of kickstarter money that he has held back as Palladium money to 'keep the lights on' for another ten years. Or even if he's sitting on $10K he's earmarked for gRifts- The Crisis of Bakerchery printing. I want to make sure Kevin doesn't dust his hands off April 1st and go, "oh well, that was fun, what's our next book, Wayne? Let's call Kevin Long and Bill Coffin and tell them we have enough funds that should bury any axe they have to grind!"

 AcroRay wrote:
I'm curious if anyone has an eye on PB's warehousing door, to see if any large containers of product are shipping out.

Highly unlikely unless someone has a PI sleeping in their car nearby or an awfully conveniently located apartment and a telescope/webcam with some pretty awesome zoom. Palladium's address is public knowledge, and through the magic of Google Maps, you can get a street level view of the area, and it's a warehouse park.

I'd be not surprised at all to see the flamethrower that hits Palladium and does enough MDC damage to make them collapse coming from Harmony Gold over Kevin playing fast and loose with the destruction of the inventory after April 1st. Kevin thinks he the smarter of the bunch and probably forgets that most of Harmony Gold's income for the past 15 years comes from litigation.

Nah. I don't think HG has any ill-will toward Palladium, and won't brutalize them legally or financially. HG has always gotten its pound of flesh, and their parting with PB is likely amicable. If anything, they'll probably buy up a bunch of the overstock themselves to sell. While the product may not be able to be produced, I think they'll be happy that it's still out there for people to buy, thus giving it some brand presence.

HG's cash cow has only a couple years of life left. Look on eBay... one of their brand managers is already dumping his Robotech internal archive materials for a quick buck, because he's not going to be needing them. ("Robotech Style Guide")

 n815e wrote:
Last day and I am still deciding. I could see myself returning to this project one day, because it's an IP I love (that's why I signed up to begin with). I don't think anyone else will pick this risky license up and other people are doing great things with their own designs to fill out the missing stuff.
It's not about getting perceived value in return, but more about ensuring that I can get the few additional boxes of models that I planned on getting before I stopped working on this.
It would also be nice to "let it go".

It's a struggle, though, because I also want to see PB held accountable.
I believe they have not only violated the agreement but have scammed us or committed fraud by taking money given for the project and using it to stock their warehouse, then subsequently lying to us about it for 3 years.
I don't expect a return of the money, they are barely staying open. I want to make sure that they face consequences for their actions, I don't want to see them get away with it.

So I am conflicted.

Keep in mind that in another 4 years or so HG will be losing their licensing of Robotech, which will open up a huge influx of Macross and Robotech stuff, merchandise, video games, and a number of Macross series that were not released here. Macross Frontier is easily my favorite Macross series. The future is looking good for those of us that are Macross/Robotech fans.

 AcroRay wrote:
They don't owe me so much by their bizarre calculations. My pledge level and a couple of Backerkit add-ons would have provided me with most of the styles of model I wanted from the line. (I was primarily in it as a Macross model collector, rather than an active gamer.) Not getting the full assortment of model types I supported is my main loss and my primarily valuation for the project. A refund at a more realistic exchange value would have been more fair to me, because I could have then bought the couple more PB metals I might have wanted, then gone to Shapeways for masters of the models PB fumbled finishing.

Their valuation is based on their own financial woes, rather than an honest accounting of the value of the products.

You don't need to accept their valuation. You can invoice them at a fair valuation based on what they owe you

Yea, I'm a fence rider, but have also covered all my bases.

I have their offer, which is actually quite a bit higher than that I know I am owed. I'm guessing due to so much missing from Wave 1 stuff.

I also have all my stuff ready to go for AG/FTC/Etc,

The Ebay thing was more along the lines of thinking out loud. The market is crazy and you never know what Ebay will do. Like I said, the last 3 months have seen RRT stuff sell from 50% of retail to Full retail. It also has a much wider reach than anything I've seen RRT on.

Just musings.

Indeed. PB's current discounted $80 price on the RRT core box set is more than I see it sell for at eBay.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Tal - I think it depends on the dollar value, and what you think you might get out of litigation (after fees and expenses). Either way, you're probably looking at pennies on the dollar.

The only way you get a full refund is if there is a finding of bad faith, which causes PB to pay damages in excess of legal fees on top of monies owed. That's not very likely.

The key question is whether you'd rather choose to see PB suffer through a trial and eat a little crow, or whether you're willing to throw good money after bad to get more Wave 1 product. If you already have enough Wave 1 product to last a lifetime, then more of "too much" is still "too much". Similarly, if you treat the Wave 2 credit as a sunk cost, would you have bought the Wave 1 product for the shipping fees.

Potentially punishing PB might prevent them from cheating others down the line, and there may be some satisfaction in that. Eventually.

Refunds are required in non-delivery. No discussion needed, it's in the contract.

As for bad faith, that's actually fairly easy to prove as well, given that good faith is defined broadly thus:

"In contract law, the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing is a general presumption that the parties to a contract will deal with each other honestly, fairly, and in good faith, so as to not destroy the right of the other party or parties to receive the benefits of the contract."

We have a very definite lack of honesty, and fairness - one cannot claim things are off for tooling, when the funding is not available to pay for that tooling. It's equivalent to a car mechanic telling you 'yeah, I'll fit that new carburettor you already paid for' without mentioning that he needs a loan to pay for it.

@winterdyne - I agree that PB has been acting in bad faith. The real question is whether the judge or jury would also agree, and if so, how much they would penalize PB for their bad behavior. When it goes to a 3rd party, all bets are off.

When you compare the sheer number of misleading updates against the time they have admitted they were out of money, take into account the misrepresentation at the start of the campaign, the contradictions in several updates, and the attempt at bait and switch at the end, I think the chance is reasonable, given that all of that is documented.

winterdyne wrote:
When you compare the sheer number of misleading updates against the time they have admitted they were out of money, take into account the misrepresentation at the start of the campaign, the contradictions in several updates, and the attempt at bait and switch at the end, I think the chance is reasonable, given that all of that is documented.

Based on what we've seen I think Palladium has been acting in bad faith. The problem is that Palladium's notoriously tight-lipped, and it's possible that they have been trying to get Wave 2 done, but none of the quotes they claimed to be trying to get were within their financial means. The question now is do you accept the offer while you can (which might of lapsed by the time of this posting) or do you risk losing everything with a civil and/or criminal case?

I'd almost agree with you if it weren't for the HORRENDOUS over ordering of wave 1. From the 4 containers needed up to 9? You don't pay to package and ship that much stuff without a deliberate decision making process.

The evidence points to an early abandoning of any attempt to cover the required tooling costs, which as we discussed earlier on breaks the two-wave project plan. Doubling down on this with such a huge order of stock, of what is a mediocre product and instead launching it as badly as possible, is... well, baffling.

I still don't think it a *bad* product. Yeah, the piece breakdown's awful and it's a lot of work, but they're not actually terrible models. Half the problem is they were never, ever shown for what they could be.

They were shown abysmally at Adepticon and GenCon - done by a decent painter (or even not at all!) they'd have gathered more steam I think. It all came across as very amateur hour, and not in a that's-cute-let's-support-them way.

And no painted models on the box? Again - not showing a 'meh' product for what it can be is only ever going to hurt sales.

@winterdyne - That's all true, and any impartial judge or jury *should* find PB acted in bad faith. But you never know until you go to trial. There's always some risk of a bad decision, a bad ruling.

 Desmodus wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
When you compare the sheer number of misleading updates against the time they have admitted they were out of money, take into account the misrepresentation at the start of the campaign, the contradictions in several updates, and the attempt at bait and switch at the end, I think the chance is reasonable, given that all of that is documented.

Based on what we've seen I think Palladium has been acting in bad faith. The problem is that Palladium's notoriously tight-lipped, and it's possible that they have been trying to get Wave 2 done, but none of the quotes they claimed to be trying to get were within their financial means. The question now is do you accept the offer while you can (which might of lapsed by the time of this posting) or do you risk losing everything with a civil and/or criminal case?

Bah, their chance of getting a Wave 2 quote they could pay for is right about the same a homeless man had of asking how much a lamborghini costs because he'd like to try and get a loan for one. It was a stall tactic, pure and simple. Asking for quotes, when you know you can't get the money to pay for them is less than a worthless gesture.

I'd say it's actually a deceptive practice when you're presenting that activity as evidence of good faith efforts being made.