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It doesn't look like you're allowed to upgrade the Captain in the Demi-Company to a Chapter Master. Even the special characters you can replace the Captain with are all Captains. Do you think you should be able to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master in a Demi-Company?

Nope. That's what is written.

To use a Cm, you'll need a CAD/AD.

Makes perfect Fluff sense. Chapter Masters don't run companies.

Captain is the unit entry, and the model.

You can have a chapter master upgrade.

Saying you can't upgrade your captain to a chapter master is like saying you cannot upgrade your sgts to vet sgts or take dts.

Yes you can have CM. Why would you think you can't take a storm shield on the Captain? What restrictions do you think apply to the Captain entry in this Formation?

If a captain = chapter master then why are all of the chapter master options not available to be taken as the captain, while all the captain and chaplain IC's are allowed? I mean they included Grimaldus of the Black Templars, but then specifically didn't mention High Marshal Helbrecht. It seems to indicate that captain =/= chapter master for the formation, but once again the rules are fairly unclear here as it doesn't specifically say no chapter master upgrade. From a fluff standpoint it also just doesn't make sense for a company (or half a company) to be led by a chapter master.

It really seems like a captain =/= chapter master and this entire issue was created because they wanted to save space and not reprint the exact same upgrades etc...again. I think this is further exemplified by the upgrade not creating a "Captain-Chapter Master", but a literally new entry called a Chapter Master. The upgrade is fairly similar to upgrading a sgt to a vet sgt, yet the Vet Sgt is still a Sgt, whereas a Chapter Master is not a Captain.

I think because of the poor formation wording, you can not include a Chapter Master in either a demi-company OR a Strike Force Command as a Chapter Master is simply not a Captain.

So there's no way to field a generic Chapter Master in a Gladius Detachment? Note how Strike Force command includes Calgary, Kantor and Helbrecht yet still the same Captain entry. If you can't take a Chapter master you can't take any other upgrades. This is clear CM is allowed in demi company.

SilverSaint wrote:

If a captain = chapter master then why are all of the chapter master options not available to be taken as the captain, while all the captain and chaplain IC's are allowed? I mean they included Grimaldus of the Black Templars, but then specifically didn't mention High Marshal Helbrecht. It seems to indicate that captain =/= chapter master for the formation, but once again the rules are fairly unclear here as it doesn't specifically say no chapter master upgrade. From a fluff standpoint it also just doesn't make sense for a company (or half a company) to be led by a chapter master.

It really seems like a captain =/= chapter master and this entire issue was created because they wanted to save space and not reprint the exact same upgrades etc...again. I think this is further exemplified by the upgrade not creating a "Captain-Chapter Master", but a literally new entry called a Chapter Master. The upgrade is fairly similar to upgrading a sgt to a vet sgt, yet the Vet Sgt is still a Sgt, whereas a Chapter Master is not a Captain.

I think because of the poor formation wording, you can not include a Chapter Master in either a demi-company OR a Strike Force Command as a Chapter Master is simply not a Captain.

Simply because they don't.

Helbrecht, Kantor, and lysander clearly feel they have better things to do than lead a demi-company; but chapter master jim-bob of the clu clux clan marines(ct:sallies because that is funny) feels fine leading one.

Marshal_Gus wrote:
It doesn't look like you're allowed to upgrade the Captain in the Demi-Company to a Chapter Master. Even the special characters you can replace the Captain with are all Captains. Do you think you should be able to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master in a Demi-Company?

no...


units can have names,

there is a unit called captain, there is a unit called grand master, they both have different names/stats/ect

just as when a formation tells you to specifically take a venerable dread instead of a dread,

when it tells you, by name, to take a captain, you must take a captain.


that GW goes to the trouble of also including all special characters that are captains, but ommiting all CM characters is further evidence to this.


fluff wize as well, you have a captain lead a force that size, not the CM


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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Captain is the unit entry, and the model.

You can have a chapter master upgrade.

Saying you can't upgrade your captain to a chapter master is like saying you cannot upgrade your sgts to vet sgts or take dts.

Sure a unit can take its options

but if one of those options is upgrading a unit to another unit by definition, that changes what unit you have taken.



upgrading you captain to a CM and claiming rules that only benefit captains


is like taking a blood claw,

upgrading one to a srgt,

and claiming bonuses that only apply to blood claws for that sgt just because the upgrade was an upgrade to a bloodclaw, meaning the SGT is just an improved bloodclaw as opposed to a different model with a different profile.



claiming a CM = captain is like claiming that taking a regular dreadnought is good enough even if the formation calls for a venerable dread, cause hey, its an upgrade right?

claiming a CM = captain is like claiming that taking a regular dreadnought is good enough even if the formation calls for a venerable dread, cause hey, its an upgrade right? 

What are you on? How is a Ven Dread an upgrade? Are Centurions in your mind an upgrade to Devastators/Assault marines? You're getting fluff mixed with rules.

The formation says no restrictions on the upgrades you purchase from the Captain spreadsheet. A Chapter Master is still a Captain Unit (though no longer a Captain model). This is just like Trueborn and Kabalites which again you can upgrade in any formation that says Kabalites without a specific restriction against it.

This is clear RaW and RaI as proven. Come up with something sensical if you want to debate making bizarre claims about one Datasheet being an upgrade to an entirely separate datasheet is not helping anything.

A chapter master is not the name of any unit in the new space marine codex, the unit name is captain, the model's name is chapter master.

Just like the unit name is tactical squad an it is(at base) made up of 4 models named space marine and 1 model named sgt.

Oh, and venerable dreads are a separate unit entry again, not an upgrade(although if it were an upgrade and a formation specifed venerable i would stick with the same reasoning on you can upgrade to state that you must upgrade; although that would probably simply list the unit taken as "dreadnought" with a restriction that you must upgrade to venerable, just like the restrictions that dictate minimum unit sizes)

 FlingitNow wrote:

claiming a CM = captain is like claiming that taking a regular dreadnought is good enough even if the formation calls for a venerable dread, cause hey, its an upgrade right? 

What are you on? How is a Ven Dread an upgrade? Are Centurions in your mind an upgrade to Devastators/Assault marines? You're getting fluff mixed with rules.

The formation says no restrictions on the upgrades you purchase from the Captain spreadsheet. A Chapter Master is still a Captain Unit (though no longer a Captain model). This is just like Trueborn and Kabalites which again you can upgrade in any formation that says Kabalites without a specific restriction against it.

This is clear RaW and RaI as proven. Come up with something sensical if you want to debate making bizarre claims about one Datasheet being an upgrade to an entirely separate datasheet is not helping anything.

Well in the Eldar book, for the formations it says "Farseer OR Farseer Skyrunner." This indicates that they are separate units, and "Skyrunner Farseer" is listed as an upgrade on the Farseer data card. Different name = different unit.

No it does not. It says 1 farseer in all cases, the restrictiins for a windrider hos is that it must take the upgrade. The restrictions in the council is that if any 1 of the 3 units upgrade to jetbikes(called by the respective model names) then they all must.

You are making gak up to "prove a point" and neither exists.

 FlingitNow wrote:

claiming a CM = captain is like claiming that taking a regular dreadnought is good enough even if the formation calls for a venerable dread, cause hey, its an upgrade right? 

What are you on? How is a Ven Dread an upgrade?

you buy a dreadnought, and one of its options is to upgrade to a ven dread. Once you have upgraded it, its not longer just a dreadnought and has a different name.

separate stat lines denote separate models, each has its specific name, this is basic basic stuff...

when you have a unit composing of 5 marines, you can choose to alter its composition by adding marines, or adding veteran srgts, all of which are upgrades the same as captain to CM.


you and kommisar kiel are mistaken as you are treating the unit name is be all end all to define the models when the models are defined by their name and stat line.


I have a unit of blood claws, I up grade one blood claw to a wolf srgt. the wold srgt is a different model and does not benifit from special rules that only affect blood claws. The *name* of the data slate up top is still blood claws however, and by you and kiels logic, that means my wolf srgt is still a blood claw. this is a false statement and faulty logic on both of your parts to assume that the data slate name over rules the models name.

 easysauce wrote:
you buy a dreadnought, and one of its options is to upgrade to a ven dread. Once you have upgraded it, its not longer just a dreadnought and has a different name.

You may want to consult the new codex. The Venerable Dreadnought is not an upgrade for a normal Dreadnought.

it is in the other SM type codexes.


and that doesnt change the fact that upgrading models in a unit to another named model is proven to alter that units composition.


data slate blood claws, lets you take 5 blood claws, upgrade one to a srgt, and has rules that only affect blood claws.


what you and kiel are saying is that because the 4 blood claws and the vet srgt are from dataslate blood claws, that each model is a blood claw and benefits from blood claw only rules.

which is simply not true, the data slate name is not the models name nor is it the units composition.


the simply fact the orbital strike is chapter master only, also denotes that CM and captain are separate and distinct models.


by kiel and your logic, because its data slate captain, even if I pay to upgrade it to a CM it cannot use orbital strike cause its still just a captain.

you cannot have the model both be a captain for the one rule you want, and at the same time be a CM for the other rule you like, the two are mutually exclusive.

 easysauce wrote:
it is in the other SM type codexes.

So thus irrelevant as it isn't in this codex.

and that doesnt change the fact that upgrading models in a unit to another named model is proven to alter that units composition.


data slate blood claws, lets you take 5 blood claws, upgrade one to a srgt, and has rules that only affect blood claws.


what you and kiel are saying is that because the 4 blood claws and the vet srgt are from dataslate blood claws, that each model is a blood claw and benefits from blood claw only rules.

which is simply not true, the data slate name is not the models name nor is it the units composition.


the simply fact the orbital strike is chapter master only, also denotes that CM and captain are separate and distinct models.


by kiel and your logic, because its data slate captain, even if I pay to upgrade it to a CM it cannot use orbital strike cause its still just a captain.

you cannot have the model both be a captain for the one rule you want, and at the same time be a CM for the other rule you like, the two are mutually exclusive.

CM is an upgrade for Captain, much like Phaeron is an upgrade for Necron Overlords (unless that was changed?). Despite that, Phaeron Overlords can still be used in Decurions, so I would assume CM can be used instead of Captains?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No it does not. It says 1 farseer in all cases, the restrictiins for a windrider hos is that it must take the upgrade. The restrictions in the council is that if any 1 of the 3 units upgrade to jetbikes(called by the respective model names) then they all must.

You are making gak up to "prove a point" and neither exists.

My bad then, no need to be hostile though. I I really thought it said that.

HOWEVER, The way it is worded, "...must be upgraded to a Skyrunner Farseer..." That describes it as a different unit. If it were not a different unit, it would not need a different name (like the last codex). If they were the same unit, it would have been worded "...must take the skyrunner updrade..."

Another indication of them being seperate units is where "Fleet" is listed under special rules on the Farseer data card. It goes on further to say "(Farseer only)". So are you arguing that Skyrunner Farseers also gain fleet? If so, what do you think this rule was included for?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
it is in the other SM type codexes.

So thus irrelevant as it isn't in this codex.



CM is an upgrade for Captain, much like Phaeron is an upgrade for Necron Overlords (unless that was changed?). Despite that, Phaeron Overlords can still be used in Decurions, so I would assume CM can be used instead of Captains?

did you really just say that another codex's treatment of the exact same situation does not matter,

then give me an example of a similar situation from a different codex as evidence to support you point?





you upgraded a model to be a different model with a different name/stat line is the key in the SM case... you are not just adding a mastery level or something of that nature,

if you claim that a chapter master is in fact a captain still, then he does not get to use orbital assault or the CM stat line...

what you are doing is claiming to be a CM for one rules purpose, and a captain for another... despite the two being mutually exclusive.


you upgrade a captain to a CM,

you then have a unit composed of one CM, with all that entails, new stats, new model name, new rules like orbital strike.

the Data slate might still be called captain, but any rules that apply to captain models no longer apply in the same way as with other codexes and the example with blood claws that I brought up.


GW also specifically listed out what counts as a captain in the dataslate, captains count, special characters that are captains count, but CM are left of that list so are a no go.


the side that is arguing that captains and CM are interchangeable in all respects have some fundamental problems with that reasoning that have not been addressed at all re orbital strike, unit composition, calling out models specifically by name in formations.

Can a ba tac squad take grav cannons?

Tac squads in codex space marines can.

Cm in codex space marines(sorry adeptus astartes) is not a separate unit from a captain. It is an upgrade in the captain unit entry. This is what I was talking about with the vet sgt upgrade; if you take the captain as un-upgradable, then you cannot upgrade to vet sgts(or add additional space marines) because the unit composition is 1 sgt and 4 space marines. The vet sgt is an upgrade that changes 1 model in the unit entry(exactly like the cm in the captain entry)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
CM is an upgrade for Captain, much like Phaeron is an upgrade for Necron Overlords (unless that was changed?). Despite that, Phaeron Overlords can still be used in Decurions, so I would assume CM can be used instead of Captains?

There are no upgrades for Overlords, only the ability to take wargear stuff.

Are we suggesting that a CM gets none of the special rules listed on the captains dataslate? He only has rhe orbital strike rule and none of the others?

No we are not suggesting that at all

I guess an obvious comparison would be a command squad and the like. If a Chapter Master is just an upgrade for a Captain so all entries for Captain mean I Chapter Master that means I can take a single Veteran from a command squad and upgrade it to an Apothecary and give him a Storm Shield, since hes a veteran. I am pretty sure this doesn't fly.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No we are not suggesting that at all

Easysauce is...

That is again a different situation.

And not at all what we are saying.

What we are saying is that you take a command squad and upgrade 1 member to an apothecary; then it is still a fething command squad.

A cm is still a captain unit(but no longer a captain model) the apothecary is still part of the command squad unit, but no longer a veteran model.

Cms are not a different unit from captains anymore(codex aa specific); they are different models with different statlines and special rules,but are the same unit entry.

 easysauce wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
it is in the other SM type codexes.

So thus irrelevant as it isn't in this codex.



CM is an upgrade for Captain, much like Phaeron is an upgrade for Necron Overlords (unless that was changed?). Despite that, Phaeron Overlords can still be used in Decurions, so I would assume CM can be used instead of Captains?

did you really just say that another codex's treatment of the exact same situation does not matter,

then give me an example of a similar situation from a different codex as evidence to support you point?





you upgraded a model to be a different model with a different name/stat line is the key in the SM case... you are not just adding a mastery level or something of that nature,

if you claim that a chapter master is in fact a captain still, then he does not get to use orbital assault or the CM stat line...

what you are doing is claiming to be a CM for one rules purpose, and a captain for another... despite the two being mutually exclusive.


you upgrade a captain to a CM,

you then have a unit composed of one CM, with all that entails, new stats, new model name, new rules like orbital strike.

the Data slate might still be called captain, but any rules that apply to captain models no longer apply in the same way as with other codexes and the example with blood claws that I brought up.


GW also specifically listed out what counts as a captain in the dataslate, captains count, special characters that are captains count, but CM are left of that list so are a no go.


the side that is arguing that captains and CM are interchangeable in all respects have some fundamental problems with that reasoning that have not been addressed at all re orbital strike, unit composition, calling out models specifically by name in formations.

You want an example check the one you gave earlier from codex Eldar. Note how it just says Farseer unit, then notes you must take sky runner in the restrictions. Sticking with the same codex check the seer council again just Farseers and Warlock Council mentioned, yet you may upgrade either to sky runners (where they require you to make the same choice for all models).

A Chapter Master is still a Captain unit,but no longer a Captain MODEL. Formations list units you can take rather than models, the restrictions are where models are limited or referred to. Like again your blood claw example. Upgrade one to Wolf guard Squad Leader and he is no longer a blood claw model and not effected by rules that relate to blood claw models. But he is still a member of a bloodclaw unit so is still effected by rules that effect bloodclaw units.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Can a ba tac squad take grav cannons?

Tac squads in codex space marines can.

Cm in codex space marines(sorry adeptus astartes) is not a separate unit from a captain. It is an upgrade in the captain unit entry. This is what I was talking about with the vet sgt upgrade; if you take the captain as un-upgradable, then you cannot upgrade to vet sgts(or add additional space marines) because the unit composition is 1 sgt and 4 space marines. The vet sgt is an upgrade that changes 1 model in the unit entry(exactly like the cm in the captain entry)

Yes, a Chapter Master is an upgrade listed for the captain, but by taking that upgrade, the Captain is no longer a Captain. He becomes a Chapter Master. A Chapter Master has a different statline and rules than a Captain; just as a Skyrunner Farseer has different rules than a Farseer. We know the Fareseer is a different unit from a Skyrunner Farseer thanks to the "Fleet" rule on the Farseer data card. Same goes here.

Vet Sgt is also not the same as a Sgt. The unit composition is allowed to change in the tac squad becase we are give specific permission to do so.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That is again a different situation.

And not at all what we are saying.

What we are saying is that you take a command squad and upgrade 1 member to an apothecary; then it is still a fething command squad.

A cm is still a captain unit(but no longer a captain model) the apothecary is still part of the command squad unit, but no longer a veteran model.

Cms are not a different unit from captains anymore(codex aa specific); they are different models with different statlines and special rules,but are the same unit entry.

Yes you are correct easysauce is disagreeing with you. Also it is still Codex: Space Marines (AA is just a grouping title like AdMech for Skitarii and CultMech).


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 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Can a ba tac squad take grav cannons?

Tac squads in codex space marines can.

Cm in codex space marines(sorry adeptus astartes) is not a separate unit from a captain. It is an upgrade in the captain unit entry. This is what I was talking about with the vet sgt upgrade; if you take the captain as un-upgradable, then you cannot upgrade to vet sgts(or add additional space marines) because the unit composition is 1 sgt and 4 space marines. The vet sgt is an upgrade that changes 1 model in the unit entry(exactly like the cm in the captain entry)

Yes, a Chapter Master is an upgrade listed for the captain, but by taking that upgrade, the Captain is no longer a Captain. He becomes a Chapter Master. A Chapter Master has a different statline and rules than a Captain; just as a Skyrunner Farseer has different rules than a Farseer. We know the Fareseer is a different unit from a Skyrunner Farseer thanks to the "Fleet" rule on the Farseer data card. Same goes here.

Vet Sgt is also not the same as a Sgt. The unit composition is allowed to change in the tac squad becase we are give specific permission to do so.

Exactly this is the same as Farseer and Farseer Sky runner. So in the unit listings in the Eldar formations does it ever say Farseer Skyrunner? Or does it just say Farseer and then mention in restrictions whether or not you can or must take that upgrade?

It's (currently) a rules grey area for RAW. (There are always people that are going to say "no my stance is black and white," but no, it isn't, and no one will convince me otherwise.)

On one side, you have:
-it's a line upgrade, not a unique data sheet. So saying you can't take it would indeed be similar to saying you can't take a weapon upgrade or make him wear terminator armor.

On the rai side, you've got:
-there is no chapter master entry in a gladius anywhere, even in the sub formation where the named chapter masters are. Surely if they give you the opportunity to take named CM's in the same group as a captain, they mean for you to be able to upgrade him to a CM, right? It wouldn't make sense for them to put "may upgrade to a CM" underneath, because he can already do that on his data sheet. It would be redundant.

-what WOULD they put if they wanted you to be able to take a CM then? A CM isn't a unit data sheet anywhere in the book.

-a gladius can be, and probably will be, bigger than just a full company, involving some 10th company, some 1st company, some of the librarius, and a hefty chunk of armory. Surely 20-30% of the chapter being at one place at one time is enough for the chapter master's personal attention? During shield of Baal, Dante personally takes command when his forces entail a mere half of the 2nd company + a few of his sanguinary guard and Mephiston.

To go against it though:

-as has been stated, it doesn't list named CM's as a replacement option, only captains.

The main point of RAW contention is: does a captain data sheet cease to be a captain data sheet if you take an upgrade that changes the model's name? What if instead of chapter master, it was "veteran captain." Would you be able to take that upgrade?