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niv-mizzet wrote:
There seems to be a person or persons that gained the rage and zealot special rules in real life in here. Time to abandon thread.

It comes as standard on some models

Fragile wrote:
If you can upgrade a Captain using the unit options, what stops you from adding Spiders to a Harvest.

If it says Captain, it must be a Captain. If it says 1 spider, it is one spider.

Have you bothered to read the rules or the thread? Formations list units. A Chapter Master is the name of the MODEL, Captain is the name of the UNIT. So when I take a CM I have absolutely taken a Captain. Just like when I upgrade Grey Hunter to a Wolfguard Pack Leader he is no longer a Grey Hunter MODEL but is still part of a Grey Hunter UNIT.

The rules are 100% clear on this as proven in this thread. Now do you have anything to add rather than making debunked claims that illustrate you fail understand the basics of how formations work and the difference between units and models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
If you can upgrade a Captain using the unit options, what stops you from adding Spiders to a Harvest.

If it says Captain, it must be a Captain. If it says 1 spider, it is one spider.

The Spider in the Harvest entry as written is broken RaW. There is no such unit as 1 Spyder. So we have to houserule it and the closest to the RaW would be change it to unit of Spyders which would indeed allow you to upgrade. However they have made their intent clear by specifically calling out 1 Spyder so most will play it that way.

It should be written 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders, with a restriction that he can only contain 1 model.

The Demi Company much like Strike Force Command just lists the Captain unit which undeniably the Chapter Master is. Look at the Eldar codex a Farseer Skyrunner is just as different from a Farseer as a Captain is from a CM. Yet everywhere where you can take a Skyrunner the unit listed is still the datasheet name Farseer.

Finally the rules tell us each datasheet is a unit entry. That at the top of the datasheet is the unit name. Then they tell us that Formations list the unit entries you can take. So ask you for the unit entry for a Chapter Master.

I did just realize something. If you take a Chapter Master, you won't be able to get the free transports, as that requires a Captain.

From wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Simple question: armoured task force; can you take servitors with the techmarine?

Simple question: Is a Captain a Chapter Master?

Yes, in exactly the same way that servitors are an upgrade to the techmarine.

Techmarine entry sinply states 1 techmarine; techmarine is both a unit and a model name. If you believe you can add servitors to the techmarine, then you can change the captain model to a chapter master model in the captain unit.

The spyder/spyders bit is different; RAW they used the model name instead of the unit. This is not likely to be RAI simply because grammatically one would write 1 spyder as opposed to 1 spyders. Hiwpi is as 1 unit not 1 model. But again model and unit do not share the exact same name(just close enough to cause confusion)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew: a chapter master is a captain, just an upgraded one(unit: captain, model: chapter master), so if you have a chapter master you have a captain.

These debates are fun...

Formations typically list a number of required or optional UNITS.

If the Formation calls for 1 Captain, we should interpret this as 1 Captain UNIT.

The Captain UNIT can be composed of either a Captain MODEL or a Chapter Master MODEL depending on how we choose options.]

You need to differentiate between MODEL and UNIT, especially in the case of units composed of a single model.

The Canoptek Harvest Formation is a Red Herring. The Formation calls for "1 Canoptek Spyder" along with "1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths" and "1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs". So, two issues. One, is the inconsistency. We're not told to include "1 unit of Canoptek Sypders" as we are with the other units. The second is the more important one. There is no unit in the Codex called "Canoptek Spyder". There is a model called "Canoptek Spyder", but no unit. There is a unit called "Canoptek SpyderS". Not the pluralization. Given these two points, the most reasonable interpretation is that the Formation is calling for 1 Canoptek Spyder MODEL and not a Canoptek Spyders UNIT.

 Happyjew wrote:
I did just realize something. If you take a Chapter Master, you won't be able to get the free transports, as that requires a Captain.

? Why would you not be able to get the free transports? That requires a Captain which the CM undeniably is.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Spider in the Harvest entry as written is broken RaW. There is no such unit as 1 Spyder.

Funny. That's how every Spyder unit starts... Just one Spyder...

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Spider in the Harvest entry as written is broken RaW. There is no such unit as 1 Spyder.

Funny. That's how every Spyder unit starts... Just one Spyder...

No it starts as a Spyder unit of 1 model. A subtle but important distinction. Because model level rules and unit level rules are 2 distinct things. Formation lists are unit level rules. When they put model level instructions in there they break RaW. So we have to work out what they meant. Was it a typo missing unit of spyders with no restrictions, was it a typo with unit of spyders and a typo saying restricted to 1 model, or have they not understood what their own rules say and meant 1 Spyder model in which case they should have typed 1 spyder unit and a restriction of 1 model.

Fortunately there is no such problem with the demi company as they have put in a clear unit name of Captain. So we know we can take a Captain Unit with any upgrades.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Spider in the Harvest entry as written is broken RaW. There is no such unit as 1 Spyder.

Funny. That's how every Spyder unit starts... Just one Spyder...

No it starts as a Spyder unit of 1 model. A subtle but important distinction.

And you missed the point. You said there is no such unit as 1 Spyder. And that's how the unit starts.

See how the language can be turned around? What your post originally quoted up there could be easily interpreted as, "No unit exists of just 1 Spyder".

That's all I was really pointing out.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The Spider in the Harvest entry as written is broken RaW. There is no such unit as 1 Spyder.

Funny. That's how every Spyder unit starts... Just one Spyder...

No it starts as a Spyder unit of 1 model. A subtle but important distinction.

And you missed the point. You said there is no such unit as 1 Spyder. And that's how the unit starts.

See how the language can be turned around? What your post originally quoted up there could be easily interpreted as, "No unit exists of just 1 Spyder".

That's all I was really pointing out.

It could only be interpreted like that by someone who doesn't understand the rules or English. If I'd written "there is no such unit of 1 spyder" you'd have had a point. It's almost like words matter...

NVM.

If you wanted to be accurate about it, you leave off the "1": there is no such unit as canoptek spyder.

There is such a unit as canoptek spyders, and that unit starts with 1 spyder; but the is no unit named spyder(abv).

There is also no such unit as "Grand Master" yet, the Grey Knight Brotherhood requires one.

 Happyjew wrote:
There is also no such unit as "Grand Master" yet, the Grey Knight Brotherhood requires one.

Hence they should errata that out as currently it is broken RaW and redundant RaI. But hey at least they learnt this by the time the Eldar dex came out.

Just wanted to add my voice

1 Captain in Battle Demi-Company composition mean a 1 Captain Unit, not particular model.
Same way 3 Tactical Squads are Units not 3 times 4 Space Marines and 1 Space Marine Sergeant.

In new codex we have Unit type sheets and Chapter Master is upgrade of Captain, but it not change it's unit composition -> Chapter Master is still unit type 1 Captain just like Tactical Squad Veteran Sergeant is still 1 Space Marine Sergeant.
Named Captains was allowed to be taken, because they are on different "sheets" than Captain Unit. Also there is no Chapter Master Unit sheet in codex.

And like it has been said before -> You are allowed to take 0-1 Command Squad (not written: Unit) with all upgrades you can take, which means also you can take Apothercary.

I think the RAI is Captain and only Captain. Look at the substitute special characters; the list specifically omits and chapter mastes. Cantor, Helbrecht and Calgar are only avaible in the CAD or the Strike Force Command formation. If GW intended to let us use a Chapter Master to lead the Demi-Company, why isn't Pedro an option?

Okapi,
Rules are really, really clear.

As per RAI if you wish:
We can assume that additional powers granted by Kantor, Calgar or Helbrecht are to powerfull to allow them to be in simple Battle Demi-Company.

Not everyone use Iron Hands overpowered CM on bike.

Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

Breton wrote:
Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

The point is that the formations tell you which units you take. The chapter master statline is still(and always) a captain unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Breton wrote:
Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

The point is that the formations tell you which units you take. The chapter master statline is still(and always) a captain unit.

So it says Captain XXXXXX
Captain XXXXXX

If the Apothecary isn't a Veteran/Black Night etc, then a Chapter Master is not a Captain.

I'd say RAW is pretty clear - it allows you to take the listed named HQ units or a generic Captain unit. Whether or not the Captain unit upgrades its one model to a Chapter Master model is irrelevant, since the unit is still called Captain.
Comparing it to one of the worst rules GW has written - the "1 spyder" passage - is really pointless. That passage should state "unit of X and may only contain 1 model of Y" - much like other restrictions to model count in units are worded. Someone fethed up, it's by no means a reference point for how anything should work.

RAI is , uhm. "kinda unclear"? I'd say the intention was to allow Chapter Masters only in via the Command formation. So you have basically:

Sgts leading each squad
Captain or Chaplain leading each Demi-Company - OR a Chaptain leading a Battle Company being assisted by a Chaplain
Chapter Master leading the Gladius Strike Force (from his Command formation)

Which looks pretty well-thought out as a command structure and could be what they intended.
If you wanted to bring a CM without a "supporting Captain", you could always leave the Demis and Gladius formations and go for a set of formations and/or CAD(s).

I personally (HIWPI) don't really see the need to override the RAW or enforce the "likely RAI". It works as it is and I don't think bringing a Chapter Master as the commander of a Demi-Company breaks fluff or balance.

I don't see the need to differentiate between them either, but I think it is. I think their game name, and fluff name should be different. Captain and Veteran Captain/Chapter Master/etc.

Breton wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Breton wrote:
Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

The point is that the formations tell you which units you take. The chapter master statline is still(and always) a captain unit.

So it says Captain XXXXXX
Captain XXXXXX

If the Apothecary isn't a Veteran/Black Night etc, then a Chapter Master is not a Captain.

An apothecary is part of the unit: command squad.

Do you think the gladius denies upgrading the veteran to apothecary?

The chapter master is still a captain because that is the unit, just like the apothecary is still a part of the command squad. The apothecary is no longer a vet/black knight in exactly the same way that the captain unit captain cannot call down an orbital strike(different models with different rules/options in the same unit).

Let me state this again. A chapter master is unit entry:captain. He will always be unit entry: captain. Nothing will change the chapter master model from unit entry:captain. The gladius units are unit entries(or do you have a group of models all called "tactical squad" in your codex that i somehow don't have in mine?(i only have a unit entry: tactical squad, and it is made up of space marines and a sergeant/veteran sergeant)

Breton wrote:
I don't see the need to differentiate between them either, but I think it is. I think their game name, and fluff name should be different. Captain and Veteran Captain/Chapter Master/etc.

Rules-wise there is a clear distinction. Between what an Army List entry, a unit and a model is. Army List entries may contain multiple units (e.g. Infantry Platoons), units (e.g. Tactical Squads or Captain-unit) and models (e.g. Tactical Marine, Captain or Chapter Master).
When building an Army List, you are interacting with the Army List entry by default.
The Army List entry "Captain" - which is what your formation might limit you to consists of a single Captain unit.
This Captain unit consists of either a Captain model or a Chapter Master model.

Since the Formation does not call for a Captain who may not include a Chapter Master model/receive a Chapter Master upgrade, it is allowed to bring a Chapter Master - since it is a default option for any Captain unit. The formation would have to overrule the permission to take the Chapter Master upgrade - since it was already granted by the unit data slate. If it was the other way around, you'd have to re-allow ANY upgrade - e.g. Power Swords or Jump Packs. Which would be, quite frankly, stupid.

And even your example of "Captain unit consisting of Veteran Captain or Chapter Master model" would still allow people to argue "but the Chapter Master doesn't have a Captain in the name bladibla".

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Breton wrote:
Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

The point is that the formations tell you which units you take. The chapter master statline is still(and always) a captain unit.

Then you agree that you can take 3 spiders in the Canoptek Harvest formation for necrons, since you can upgrade the Spider with 2 more spiders?

Okapi wrote:
I think the RAI is Captain and only Captain. Look at the substitute special characters; the list specifically omits and chapter mastes. Cantor, Helbrecht and Calgar are only avaible in the CAD or the Strike Force Command formation. If GW intended to let us use a Chapter Master to lead the Demi-Company, why isn't Pedro an option?

Yet the command option that does list Pedro and Calgar as options also lists just the Captain unit just like the demi company. So are you saying you can only field the named CMs in a Gladius and NEVER the generic ones?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So are you saying you can only field the named CMs in a Gladius and NEVER the generic ones?

It makes exactly as much sense as the Ravenwing Strike Force with 3 HQ slots and 1 valid HQ choice.

Fragile wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Breton wrote:
Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

The point is that the formations tell you which units you take. The chapter master statline is still(and always) a captain unit.

Then you agree that you can take 3 spiders in the Canoptek Harvest formation for necrons, since you can upgrade the Spider with 2 more spiders?

Yes I do; although i was not involved in that argument.

I also agree with it based on the lack of a points cost or unit options for the "1 canoptek spyder"; so the choices with that are: It is 1 unit(and a typo missing the "s"); or it is a free model with no upgrades(no problem for the spyder anyways).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Breton wrote:
Does the Stat Line list the names? Such that the Ravenwing Apothecary isn't a Black Knight anymore, and a Chapter Master isn't a Captain anymore?

And yes, you can take a DIY CM in a Gladius, it's the Command option.

The point is that the formations tell you which units you take. The chapter master statline is still(and always) a captain unit.

Then you agree that you can take 3 spiders in the Canoptek Harvest formation for necrons, since you can upgrade the Spider with 2 more spiders?

Yes I do; although i was not involved in that argument.

I also agree with it based on the lack of a points cost or unit options for the "1 canoptek spyder"; so the choices with that are: It is 1 unit(and a typo missing the "s", and all options available); or it is a free model with no upgrades(no problem for the spyder anyways).

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So are you saying you can only field the named CMs in a Gladius and NEVER the generic ones?

It makes exactly as much sense as the Ravenwing Strike Force with 3 HQ slots and 1 valid HQ choice.

Comparing a known issue with RaW to someone's RaI claim is bewildering to say the least. How is this even remotely similar?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So are you saying you can only field the named CMs in a Gladius and NEVER the generic ones?

It makes exactly as much sense as the Ravenwing Strike Force with 3 HQ slots and 1 valid HQ choice.

It's just that the RWSF RAW limit you to a single HQ choice. Which is most likely a mistake and not RAI.
The SM formations RAW do NOT prevent you from taking the Chapter Master upgrade. RAI might be again different, but that doesn't change the RAW. And confusing units with models or citing other broken RAW passages simply doesn't change anything.