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 FlingitNow wrote:

Okapi wrote:
I think the RAI is Captain and only Captain. Look at the substitute special characters; the list specifically omits and chapter mastes. Cantor, Helbrecht and Calgar are only avaible in the CAD or the Strike Force Command formation. If GW intended to let us use a Chapter Master to lead the Demi-Company, why isn't Pedro an option?

Yet the command option that does list Pedro and Calgar as options also lists just the Captain unit just like the demi company. So are you saying you can only field the named CMs in a Gladius and NEVER the generic ones?

Having looked I think you're right, you can take the Chapter Master upgrade. It says Unit composition one Captain, not 1 Captain or 1 Chapter Master etc. I also checked the Gladius Strike force and it does list captain, not Chapter Master in the Strike Command. I read it too quickly initially and thought it said otherwise.

I suspect RAI was Captain in the Demi, Captain with a CM upgrade in Strike Command, but I'm not sure, as they've said in the past a really beefy captain could be a Chapter Master unit who just hasn't gotten promoted yet. However, consistency then says an apothecary is a Veteran for upgrades etc?

An Apothecary is not a Veteran for upgrades. You're confusing units and models. And Apothecary is still part of a command squad unit but is no longer a Veteran. The Chapter Master is no longer a Captain model but still a Captain unit. I wish they had just called the Datasheet Commander which would have made everything clearer.

Thus the demi company and command would have had Commander as their entry and this debate would never have happened (or they would have put Captain in Demi Company and Commander in command if that was their intent). However there is no reason to believe the RaI is different for what you can select in Command or in the Demi with regards to Captain options.

 FlingitNow wrote:
An Apothecary is not a Veteran for upgrades. You're confusing units and models. And Apothecary is still part of a command squad unit but is no longer a Veteran. The Chapter Master is no longer a Captain model but still a Captain unit. I wish they had just called the Datasheet Commander which would have made everything clearer.

Thus the demi company and command would have had Commander as their entry and this debate would never have happened (or they would have put Captain in Demi Company and Commander in command if that was their intent). However there is no reason to believe the RaI is different for what you can select in Command or in the Demi with regards to Captain options.

Not really. Look at the Unit entry. A Captain unit consists of One Captain, upgraded to Chapter Master or Not. ergo a Command Squad consists of 5 Veterans upgraded or not. However, the Honor guard consists of 2 honor guard and 1 Chapter champion (or whatever the names are I don't have it with me ATM)

No a Captain unit only consists of 1 Captain if he is not upgraded. Once upgraded it is a Captain unit that consists of 1 Chapter Master. Again you're getting confused between models and units. The Command Squad is the unit and is always the unit. It consists of Veteran Models that can be upgraded to other Models, they cease to be Veteran models, however the unit remains a Command Squad. The Captain Unit is the unit and consists of 1 Captain Model if this model is upgraded to a Chapter Master it is no longer a Captain Model, but the unit remains a Captain Unit.

Unit = Set
Models = Members of the set

So you can have a set and member sharing the same name, this does not ever mean they are the same tyhing though

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unit = Set
Models = Members of the set

So you can have a set and member sharing the same name, this does not ever mean they are the same tyhing though

But it does mean you use the same logic for two members from two sets. If a Chapter Master and a Captain are both Captains. Then a Veteran and an Apothecary are both Veterans- If the Chapter Master is still Unit composition Captain, then an apothecary is still Unit Composition Veteran. If an Apothecary upgrade makes it NOT a veteran, then a Chapter Master upgrade makes it NOT a captain.

Incorrect, you are STILL mixcing up unit and model

A Chapter Master and a Captain are BOTH part of a Captain UNIT

An Apothecary and a Veteran are BOTH part of a Command Squad UNIT

Howveer an Apothecary is NOT a Veteran MODEL, but an Apothecary MODEL

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, you are STILL mixcing up unit and model

A Chapter Master and a Captain are BOTH part of a Captain UNIT

An Apothecary and a Veteran are BOTH part of a Command Squad UNIT

Howveer an Apothecary is NOT a Veteran MODEL, but an Apothecary MODEL

No, I'm not. On the far right of the Unit Entry is a field called Unit composition. If we say a Chapter Master is still a Captain, then we have to say an Apothecary is still a Veteran.

A Chapter master isn't a Captain Model. Just like an Apothecary isn't a Veteran. Composition is what makes up the unit, upgrades can change this. Take a tactical squad it starts off with a Sergeant and 4 Marines as it's composition, this can change with potentially 9 Marines and the Sergeant changing to a Veteran Sergeant, however the unit is still called a Tactical Squad.

So you can change the composition of a Command Squad from 5 Veterans to 3 Veterans, 1 Company Champion and 1 Apothecary. Neither the Company Champion nor the Apothecary are Veterans. However the unit is still called a Command Squad.

Thus you can change the composition of the Captain unit from 1 Captain to 1 Chapter Master. The Chapter Master is not a Captain model. However the unit is still called a Captain.

Is there even a specific "Chapter Master" model, aside from named ones?

I get the WYSIWYG implications of the Apothecary, but surely the plastic Captain set could be used for a CM, any of the resin "Masters of the Chapter" Captains could be used as a Chapter Master, etc. There isn't really a way to tell aside from the player saying which profile is being applied to that model for that game, is there? I'm sure there are models which have been used as Captains one game and then Chapter Masters in the next. Not myself specifically, since I play Crimson Fists and thus have a named Chapter Master, but I've definitely done that with my Space Wolves characters.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Is there even a specific "Chapter Master" model, aside from named ones?

I get the WYSIWYG implications of the Apothecary, but surely the plastic Captain set could be used for a CM, any of the resin "Masters of the Chapter" Captains could be used as a Chapter Master, etc. There isn't really a way to tell aside from the player saying which profile is being applied to that model for that game, is there? I'm sure there are models which have been used as Captains one game and then Chapter Masters in the next. Not myself specifically, since I play Crimson Fists and thus have a named Chapter Master, but I've definitely done that with my Space Wolves characters.

When someone is talking about a model, they are refering to what the stat line entry has.

Or, to reference the datasheet legend:

5. Unit Profile: This section will show the profiles of any models the unit can include

In the Captain datasheet with two different models noted, Captain and Chapter Master. To get a Chapter Master model, one starts with a Captain Unit which contains one Captain model. The Captain model is then upgraded to a Chapter Master model, but staying in the Captain Unit.

What, I can't be pedantic about your pedantry?

As far as I'm aware, the Master is an upgrade for a Captain right?

Can a Razorback in a Gladius be upgraded to have lascannons or las/ plas?

Were treating units like sets in math:
For instance lets say P=Captain(unit), p =Captain(model)and q=chapter master

Before upgraded this is what the unit looks like:
Set P ={p}
After Chapter Master upgrade it looks like this:
Set P={q}

The set name did not change, only the elements did.

Thus when you have the Demi-Company which refers to Captain( the unit) it doesn't matter what you upgrade the model to as the unit never changes.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Thus when you have the Demi-Company which refers to Captain( the unit) it doesn't matter what you upgrade the model to as the unit never changes.

That's my line of thinking also. I'm just being silly because it's silly that this debate has gone on for so long.

Tell an Eldar player that he can't upgrade his formation's bikes to have scatter lasers. I don't see how it's any different.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Thus when you have the Demi-Company which refers to Captain( the unit) it doesn't matter what you upgrade the model to as the unit never changes.

That's my line of thinking also. I'm just being silly because it's silly that this debate has gone on for so long.

Tell an Eldar player that he can't upgrade his formation's bikes to have scatter lasers. I don't see how it's any different.

The problem is that "Captain" is both a model and a unit, unlike the Scatter lasers on a bike.

Charistoph wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Thus when you have the Demi-Company which refers to Captain( the unit) it doesn't matter what you upgrade the model to as the unit never changes.

That's my line of thinking also. I'm just being silly because it's silly that this debate has gone on for so long.

Tell an Eldar player that he can't upgrade his formation's bikes to have scatter lasers. I don't see how it's any different.

The problem is that "Captain" is both a model and a unit, unlike the Scatter lasers on a bike.

Thats not a problem actually.

The Demi-Company lists units not models. For instance it does not say bring Tactical Marines (models) but Tactical Squads (unit name)

Look at my post above to see how changing the elements of "set" Captain (or in this case a "unit") does not change it to set/unit Chapter Master.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Thats not a problem actually.

The Demi-Company lists units not models. For instance it does not say bring Tactical Marines (models) but Tactical Squads (unit name)

Look at my post above to see how changing the elements of "set" Captain (or in this case a "unit") does not change it to set/unit Chapter Master.

I agree that with no other statements to indicate otherwise, we go by the default unit reference.

Doesn't change that's where the problem is, though, because people are man ng it a problem.

Lets use two other sets from c:aa(sm):

It says as one of the accepted cgaplains you can take Grimaldus(ir however you spell it); do you think you can bring his cenobyte servitors?

Grimmy is both the unit and model name, if you think you can bring the cenobytes because it us clearly the unit you bring then you must accept the chapter master.

It says in the tank formation you can bring 0-1 techmarine: can you add servitors?

Same as grimmy.

Several of the other formations list predators, whirlwinds, and land speeders: can you take multiples for each(as in are they meaning the vehicle model name or the unit with the same name)?

The answer to all of these is, of course, yes. Just the same as captain is the unit name and chapter master is the model name from an option in that unit.

And this is why units and models should not share names.

 Happyjew wrote:
And this is why units and models should not share names.

^ Absolutely. Its stupid.

The stupid part was dark eldar reavers.

The unit name was "Reavers" the regular dudes were "reaver", the leader had a different name; then one of the options was a number of "reavers" could take the items(i think it was the caltrops and such). The end result was some confusion and speculation that the leader could still take the upgrade because although he had a separate name with separate options he was still a "reavers" by unit designation.

They have thankfully fixed that issue in the new dex.

If anyone have problem to prove his opponent that upgrade to Chapter Master is possible, here are direct rules you can quote:

BRB Formations (don't know page):
"(...)Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those Units gain. (...)"

Codex Space Marines - Formations (page 114):
"A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain."

Captain Army List Entry = Captain Datasheet if someone would still have problem (again, page 114)

"1 Captain" on Formations Battle Demi-Company/Strike Force Command/Strike Force Ultra refers to Army List Entry "Captain" not model name.

 danyboy wrote:
If anyone have problem to prove his opponent that upgrade to Chapter Master is possible, here are direct rules you can quote:

BRB Formations (don't know page):
"(...)Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those Units gain. (...)"

Codex Space Marines - Formations (page 114):
"A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain."

Captain Army List Entry = Captain Datasheet if someone would still have problem (again, page 114)

"1 Captain" on Formations Battle Demi-Company/Strike Force Command/Strike Force Ultra refers to Army List Entry "Captain" not model name.

Then you look at the Canoptek Harvest in Codex Necrons where it calls for '1 Canoptek Spyder'...

Or you look at the Grey Knight Brotherhood where it calls for "1 Grand Master".

You mean that thing that has been addressed several different times in several different threads(including this one)?

A) we really do not need to have that argument again here.
B) there is no concensus on exactly what they meant.
C) as I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is most likely either a typo or simply used in the singular for grammar(look to the devastators options: up to 4 "space marines" can take the heavies. There is no model named "space marines", it is plural because that is the correct way to state it.
D) there is no unit enentry, nor a points cost for "canoptek spyder"; so if you want it limited to a unit of 1 only, then it must be free.

Definitely not trying to restart that particular argument, just showing why danyboy's position doesn't really provide an answer.

 Ghaz wrote:
Then you look at the Canoptek Harvest in Codex Necrons where it calls for '1 Canoptek Spyder'...

I have official Codex and I have official rules, which I quoted. Just because one Codex may need errata I am not going to think that my also have mistakes.

Why? Because on one side we have rules, on other we have thinking "how it should be" according to some (!) people.
Rules vs hoping.
How long this kind of discussion can last? Forever.

I too can point that according to RAI it is still ok to use CM leading Demi-Company. We can argue and we will never reach argument. It is pointless.
But we have really, really clear rules, which we should stick to.

And I have an official codex with a Formation that calls for a model. So what proof do you have that its the codex that is wrong?

 Ghaz wrote:
And I have an official codex with a Formation that calls for a model. So what proof do you have that its the codex that is wrong?

To be fair, he has already posted 2 quotes from 2 different books that say that a formation lists "army list entries" not models

 Ghaz wrote:
And I have an official codex with a Formation that calls for a model. So what proof do you have that its the codex that is wrong?

Read your codex page 114 in the marine dex check the equivalent page in the Cron Dex and it will tell you that Formations list units.