Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.

Fluff wise I love it, this formation is how I envision a Space Marine invasion!

 CKO wrote:
Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.
Fluff wise I love it, this formation is how I envision a Space Marine invasion!

After running against this a handful of times now, and running it once myself, I'm convinced the strongest use of the Sky Hammer is turn 2. Turn 1, it's just an alpha strike, from an army that doesn't do much else as an alpha strike. Waiting until turn 2, you'll be able to bring the hammer down while the rest of the marine army is following close at hand.

For example:
8 free razorbacks move forward 6", and disembark 40 marines 6" further forward. Scouts on the flank packing teleport homers skirt up and threaten to allow pin-point deep strikes.
Turn 2, 30 more marines rain down as the 40 marines push forward more. 70 marines, 8 razorbacks and 2 drop pods are on the table, mostly across mid-field.
It's a lot of guys to try and shoot and fight through to try and get to those objectives.

How many points is that? 70 marines in the last codex was a lot to deal with, can you fit that all in a 1850 list?

Teleport Homers only work for Terminators, not assault marines.

I guess if your opponent doesn't know that he'll waste a few bullets on them...

 pretre wrote:
Plasma oblit is a medium building, so you can embark and fire it.

If there're battlements, can you sit on them and fire the emplaced weapon? Technically that both gives you LoS and counts as being embarked.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Plasma oblit is a medium building, so you can embark and fire it.

If there're battlements, can you sit on them and fire the emplaced weapon? Technically that both gives you LoS and counts as being embarked.

You don't have battlements. You don't need them though. You use LOS of the weapon for shooting AND the plasma oblit has fire points for other models to shoot. It is quite easy to draw LOS with the plasma oblit itself, although the FP leave something to be desired on the model for shooting other stuff.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
For example:
8 free razorbacks move forward 6", and disembark 40 marines 6" further forward. Scouts on the flank packing teleport homers skirt up and threaten to allow pin-point deep strikes.
Turn 2, 30 more marines rain down as the 40 marines push forward more. 70 marines, 8 razorbacks and 2 drop pods are on the table, mostly across mid-field.
It's a lot of guys to try and shoot and fight through to try and get to those objectives.

Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Tau and Orks aren't really tournament competitive, so they're not really a concern for Skyhammer.

Unless there's an entire meta shift.

LOL every tournamnet I've ever played in the last decade there have always been Ork spoilers who may never win but sure as heck prevent you from getting mad points.

Source: I'm one of those Ork players

 pretre wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
For example:
8 free razorbacks move forward 6", and disembark 40 marines 6" further forward. Scouts on the flank packing teleport homers skirt up and threaten to allow pin-point deep strikes.
Turn 2, 30 more marines rain down as the 40 marines push forward more. 70 marines, 8 razorbacks and 2 drop pods are on the table, mostly across mid-field.
It's a lot of guys to try and shoot and fight through to try and get to those objectives.

Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.

If that is list you want sounds more like the Spear of Sicarius would be what you want. And it is all drop pods land on Turn one. 112marines, 13 pods and Dreadnoughts, it is an ugly formation between stubborn, Fiery Arrival and Tip of the Spear. I think it gets the best of the a Gladius Company with the perks of Skyhammer.

 pretre wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Plasma oblit is a medium building, so you can embark and fire it.

If there're battlements, can you sit on them and fire the emplaced weapon? Technically that both gives you LoS and counts as being embarked.

You don't have battlements. You don't need them though. You use LOS of the weapon for shooting AND the plasma oblit has fire points for other models to shoot. It is quite easy to draw LOS with the plasma oblit itself, although the FP leave something to be desired on the model for shooting other stuff.

Yeah... I was just about to post that. Picked up my Plasma Oblit today and saw the rules.

 CKO wrote:
Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.

Um, most armies could deal with a DE or Tau alpha strike far better than this, particularly as these armies aren't packing the same killing power in a turn 1 alpha within your own deployment zone. Tau don't have anything that's going to match 40 Grav shots hitting your line on turn 1.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.

Um, most armies could deal with a DE or Tau alpha strike far better than this, particularly as these armies aren't packing the same killing power in a turn 1 alpha within your own deployment zone. Tau don't have anything that's going to match 40 Grav shots hitting your line on turn 1.

Grav shots in drop pods have been in use for awhile now, and assault squads are not that scary in cc. Do not get me wrong this formation is easily top three if not flat out number one and will change the meta a little, there will be more transports now for sure. but Its not last edition wave serpent spam strong. This formation still requires effort to win but, Tau have 12 str 7 bs 5 ignore cover shots or large blast ap 2 templates with ignore cover , Tau alpha strike is still strong.

 CKO wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Skyhammer formation is an alpha strike with a different mask on it. Survive the punch and take out their marines, if your list is not able to handle skyhammer it most likely could not handle Tau, Dark Eldar, or any alpha strike list.

Um, most armies could deal with a DE or Tau alpha strike far better than this, particularly as these armies aren't packing the same killing power in a turn 1 alpha within your own deployment zone. Tau don't have anything that's going to match 40 Grav shots hitting your line on turn 1.

Grav shots in drop pods have been in use for awhile now,

Not with anything near that volume, particularly at up to four different targets.

and assault squads are not that scary in cc.

Usually because they get shot to pieces crossing the board , and now they can also pack Eviscerators, giving additional S8 AP2 attacks on top of a powerfist or other powerweapon.

Do not get me wrong this formation is easily top three if not flat out number one and will change the meta a little, there will be more transports now for sure. but Its not last edition wave serpent spam strong. This formation still requires effort to win but, Tau have 12 str 7 bs 5 ignore cover shots or large blast ap 2 templates with ignore cover , Tau alpha strike is still strong.

Tau alpha strike can be strong, but that's not going to hurt into heavy armor much or put much scare into something like a Wraithknight, and it's a whole lot less volume than 40 Grav Cannon shots at up to four different targets. The ability to come in, have the grav cannons go to town on the scary things or vehicles, and have the assault marines mop up disembarked infantry, vehicles, or other units, is far more capable and scarier than anything I could think of in a typical Tau turn-1 alpha strike.

Is there not a cause for using multi-meltas with one of the dev squads?

In addition, mitigate the loss of grav by using combi-weapons to make use of that relentless rule.

The meltas can tackle the hard problem units or odd psuedo-units with poor saves (umm?),,, whilst saving you a very reasonable chunk of points.

At least the opponent has to tell you what turn it is coming in. No waiting to decide till its most advantageous. He has to declare at the start of the game.

LOL every tournamnet I've ever played in the last decade there have always been Ork spoilers who may never win but sure as heck prevent you from getting mad points.

Source: I'm one of those Ork players

So true, last tourney I took my first draw in 10 games to a Green Tide list with gazzy and 100 boyz. I killed them all in the end but ran out of time

I see Skyhammer more of a utility formation than anything else. The assault component is there to tie up things that you don't want to shoot and kill vehicles, which have big problems getting away from first turn assaults; The devastator component is there to pin what you can't kill and kill what you can't pin. Their actual combat power isn't new or insurmountable (drop grav centurions have been around for a while) but they provide a reliable, turn one alpha-strike to base an army around.

 pretre wrote:

Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.

Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.

Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.

70 marines is a lot, scarily almost... But I suppose that's why GW invented Heldrakes and Heavy Phosphor blasters...

Your helldrakes will never do enough damage. And this formation will decimate your ground forces before the helldrakes are a factor.

Razerous wrote:
Is there not a cause for using multi-meltas with one of the dev squads?

In addition, mitigate the loss of grav by using combi-weapons to make use of that relentless rule.

The meltas can tackle the hard problem units or odd psuedo-units with poor saves (umm?),,, whilst saving you a very reasonable chunk of points.

The Grav's typically are just too versatile, they're the auto-include for a take-all-comers army. Unless you're have nothing to shoot at but 6+sv infantry (which is a waste of Dev's no matter what), the Grav weapons are simply flat out better than all the other choices no matter what your target. The big advantage the MM's have is that they can make use of the damage table to explode stuff or inflict additional HP damage on superheavies, but the Grav weapons inflict much more raw initial HP damage (enough so that two full squads combat squatted and engaging four 3HP vehicle targets should kill them all on average) and a much higher average number of HP's against targets you'd really want to use MM's against.

Mms save you 200 points though.

 pretre wrote:
Mms save you 200 points though.

True, they do, but that 200pts buys a whole lot of firepower and flexibility against a much greater array of armies and target units that would be difficult to replicate at the same level of effectiveness elsewhere.

The additional 200 pts is not going to be worth it if the grav devs end up being just one hit wonder. If they get charged or shot to death the next turn due to their close proximity there goes a lot of points

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
The additional 200 pts is not going to be worth it if the grav devs end up being just one hit wonder. If they get charged or shot to death the next turn due to their close proximity there goes a lot of points

Between the ability to put 40 Grav Cannon shots that reroll failed wounds/vehicle pen and any additional bolter fire at up to four different targets, coupled with the support of the Assault Squads, really you either should have already killed a whole lore more than what the Dev's were worth, or neutralized the most immediate threats to them.

Especially when Relentless allows you to use that 24" range on the Grav Cannons to full effect, with a much larger number of effective potential landing areas than you'd otherwise have with something like meltaguns. Even dropping at the edge of your own deployment zone, disembarking 6" and shooting up to 24" should allow you to hit most targets while being relatively safe from immediate counterassault or enemy double-tap range.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.

Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.

70 marines is a lot, scarily almost... But I suppose that's why GW invented Heldrakes and Heavy Phosphor blasters...

The whirlwind speeder formation requires 2+ whirlwinds. So, replace 3x5 scouts.
That said, it's 70 marines in power armor, 2 characters, 15 scouts, 2 drop pods and 10 razorbacks (with twin-linked assault cannons).
I find most armies struggle to engage 31 units at 1850 (12 of which are obj sec, and half have hit and run).

I care not for your skyhammer grav shenanigans, I am ravenwing, and we have 2-3+ rerollable jink saves!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Free razorbacks require two demis and an auxillary. Chances of you fitting 2 demis, an auxillary and a SAF in a normal list? Unlikely.

Barebones, a 2 demis and an aux is 1,000 points. Bare bones Skyhammer is 350.
At 1850, that leaves you 500 points for upgrades, and you've got a captain, chaplain, 20 (4x5) assault marines, 20 (4x5) devistators, 30 (6x5) tactical marines, 10 razorbacks, 2 drop pods, a whirlwind and a land speeder.
I'd add another 10 devs to the sky hammer and combat squad, and then spend the rest of the points on weapon upgrades.

70 marines is a lot, scarily almost... But I suppose that's why GW invented Heldrakes and Heavy Phosphor blasters...

The whirlwind speeder formation requires 2+ whirlwinds. So, replace 3x5 scouts.
That said, it's 70 marines in power armor, 2 characters, 15 scouts, 2 drop pods and 10 razorbacks (with twin-linked assault cannons).
I find most armies struggle to engage 31 units at 1850 (12 of which are obj sec, and half have hit and run).

The thing is, there are things in your army that are blatantly a threat, if I engage and best those units, its usually just mop up duty thereafter.

Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store and asked about IC's as this seems to be the burning question. The answer I got was that if its not stated in the formation ala Telion in the scout formation at 0-1 then you cannot include them at all. Also that only codex chapters currently get to use this so no Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels unless they take it as an ally. But this is I suppose only until they inevitably get their codexes re-written

Son_of_corax wrote:
Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store and asked about IC's as this seems to be the burning question. The answer I got was that if its not stated in the formation ala Telion in the scout formation at 0-1 then you cannot include them at all. Also that only codex chapters currently get to use this so no Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels unless they take it as an ally. But this is I suppose only until they inevitably get their codexes re-written

That added no new information. Thank you, though.

SJ

Son_of_corax wrote:
Bit of Information if anyone wants it. I just called my local GW store and asked about IC's as this seems to be the burning question. The answer I got was that if its not stated in the formation ala Telion in the scout formation at 0-1 then you cannot include them at all. Also that only codex chapters currently get to use this so no Blood Angels, Space Wolves or Dark Angels unless they take it as an ally. But this is I suppose only until they inevitably get their codexes re-written

As said, nothing new,
You simply run a cad or other detachment and put the IC with them

So your GW store owner won't let people add ICs to the Ork greentide formation?

That's a terrible house rule.

No it's the actually companies stance on formations