Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

lol way to go to make a cheese list. Still the skyhammer is going to do most of the work for you. Those it is still the priority target to be intercepted. Even will your null deployment, the skitarii are just there to back up your main force which is the skyhammer. I break your sky hammer before it does anything then I mop up the rest of your army. At most it should take 3-4 turns to table you.

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

This one is easy.
Go first if you don't get that choice then sieze and hope you go first.
Target the lone sanguinary priest (not in a drop pod unless you decide to leave your table half cleared) with your ordinance ignore cover blasts.
2 wyverns and 20+ some odd saves later and The solo marine is dead.
You have just been tabled!!!
Want to play again?
I'd also keep Cortez in be back with a gunline in case I don't get to chose to go first or seize with his bonus to seize roll.

This one is easy.
Go first if you don't get that choice then sieze and hope you go first.
Target the lone sanguinary priest (not in a drop pod unless you decide to leave your table half cleared) with your ordinance ignore cover blasts.
2 wyverns and 20+ some odd saves later and The solo marine is dead.
You have just been tabled!!!
Want to play again?
I'd also keep Cortez in be back with a gunline in case I don't get to chose to go first or seize with his bonus to seize roll.

gungo wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

This one is easy.
Go first if you don't get that choice then sieze and hope you go first.
Target the lone sanguinary priest (not in a drop pod unless you decide to leave your table half cleared) with your ordinance ignore cover blasts.
2 wyverns and 20+ some odd saves later and The solo marine is dead.
You have just been tabled!!!
Want to play again?
I'd also keep Cortez in be back with a gunline in case I don't get to chose to go first or seize with his bonus to seize roll.

You can't table until the end of game turn 1. There will be 6 pods, 40 skitarii, 20 devs, and 15 assault marines that arrive T1.

Loss to tabling is end of game turn, not player turn. Going second with 100% of your army is not only viable, but is also the goal of many 'Null Deployment' lists. One more thing Pods do better than Xenos.

You do realise that all the units except the 5 man tact squad are coming in together right? And the Skitari's firepower is nothing to sneeze at especially at BS7.

40 skitari and 35 marines in your zone turn 1.
40 grav shots.
84 rad shots.
9 plasma.
6 haywire.

Skitari using +3BS and Skyhammer using UM's Devastator Doctrines.


That being said, I realise there are armies who can actually take and survive these kinda punishment.

Other null deployment armies.
CD with drone-star in ruins/or full psychic powers if they went first.
Necron Decurion and Wraithstars with Rezorb, T1 rezorb!
Admech using Shroudspalm Canticle (Shrouded+Stealth) or going to ground en masse and hope there's NF. Next turn use Iron Soul Canticle to give Fearless.
Eldar can go to ground+jink and pray a Psyker survives to cast Asuryan's Will (12" fearless bubble).
Horde is horde.

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

drop pod skit are not new, and no one thinks the sky is falling because of them.

The assault marines have no assault weapons, the 10 guys with 2 flamers assaulting avg 2 dead meq a turn. Not scary

The grav devs are great, since they get relentless, makes devs more interesting. However are they better than podded command squads with grav? or podded sternguard? And then if you think they are better consider you are having to buy 2 assault squads to get the relentless, for the points you can probably pick up 1-2 more podded sternguard squads than the devs, I would rather have more sternguard. Grav is awesome and is a bane to MCs especially, but other than the WK most of the MCs I see are FMC, 4 grav cannons are averaging 4 hits on the turn they come in against a FMC, which will probably see a jink resulting in 1-2 wounds from each dev squad. If you have the dev reroll tactic you could get 7 hits, which would be a decent amount of wounds if the FMC does not jink. I would rather have melta sternguard just because combat squaded you can probably kill 2 non superheavy vehicles the turn they land as opposed to 1 vehicle from the grav cents.

Its a good formation, but its not changing the marine drop pod alpha strike, it just gives them the option to have dev squads do it instead of sternguard, and gives some viability to assault squads. I would be much more scared of the list if the assault squads had an assault threat, and were combat squaded so they could assault 4 units.

 Glitcha wrote:

Deshkar wrote:
Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

lol way to go to make a cheese list. Still the skyhammer is going to do most of the work for you. Those it is still the priority target to be intercepted. Even will your null deployment, the skitarii are just there to back up your main force which is the skyhammer. I break your sky hammer before it does anything then I mop up the rest of your army. At most it should take 3-4 turns to table you.

Mop up with what? This kills almost your entire army. Skitarii are also lethal.

Bikes actually can't go to ground. Voluntarily or otherwise, IIRC. So are probably an interesting tool in trying to stop this nonsense.

(So if a Bike unit fails their LD, can they overwatch?)

With 4+ knights ahould survive. If the enemy gets half the shots past your shield. He might kill one knight.

Deshkar wrote:
You do realise that all the units except the 5 man tact squad are coming in together right? And the Skitari's firepower is nothing to sneeze at especially at BS7.

40 skitari and 35 marines in your zone turn 1.
40 grav shots.
84 rad shots.
9 plasma.
6 haywire.

Skitari using +3BS and Skyhammer using UM's Devastator Doctrines.


That being said, I realise there are armies who can actually take and survive these kinda punishment.

Other null deployment armies.
CD with drone-star in ruins/or full psychic powers if they went first.
Necron Decurion and Wraithstars with Rezorb, T1 rezorb!
Admech using Shroudspalm Canticle (Shrouded+Stealth) or going to ground en masse and hope there's NF. Next turn use Iron Soul Canticle to give Fearless.
Eldar can go to ground+jink and pray a Psyker survives to cast Asuryan's Will (12" fearless bubble).
Horde is horde.

Unless I missed something the skitarri are not all coming in turn one. The non skyhammer drop pods are still subject to drop pod assault. So you could have 3 drop pods come in, and two sit in reserve for turn 2.

The ASM don't assault equal-numbers of MEQ. They assault vehicles, smaller units, or back fielders. You don't need a CCW for those. They should threaten most vehicles in the game!

There are 7 pods. 6 from FA and 1 on the tactical squad.

Dont get me wrong, i believe my armies are ready for this and it is very very strong. Just pushing discussion and awareness along.

There are 7 non-skyhammer pods, mostly empty.

Er . U know the skitari can ride in them right?

5 Mek Gunz with max Grots, MA KFF BM with DLS and PainBoy with Meks thrown in to absorb challenges. Min grot mobs spread around in front, all behind a ADL with Quad Gun.

T7 4+, 5++ save with 20 wounds before they matter with 2+ rerollable against CC attacks. All with FNP.

What's the maths vs the various Dev guns? Thanks

Bharring wrote:
The ASM don't assault equal-numbers of MEQ. They assault vehicles, smaller units, or back fielders. You don't need a CCW for those. They should threaten most vehicles in the game!

The units that you are proposing they charge will most likely not be shot at by the grav devs, removing the overwatch immunity and rerolls.

I'm not sure what backfield units you are imagining charging, but I don't think it's going to have the synergy that makes this assault squads from this formation worthwhile.

combat squading the Assault squads to charge vehicles, even with rear armor 10, 5 guys charging a vehicle sees 14 s4 attacks, which is 9 hits, which is 1 maybe 2 glances on average. With krak it would be 5 attacks, 3 hits, also 1-2 effects although there is a chance for a pen. Not terrible, 10 of these guys might kill an AV10 rear armor vehicle with 3hp. If it was previously hit by grav you might get an immobile result and they would trash it good, but considering the devs cant split fire if 4 grav cannons firing at the vehicle didn't kill it already it was FUBAR and most likely immobile and cripple.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deshkar wrote:
Er . U know the skitari can ride in them right?

I think he was referring to my comment, I didn't even count the drop pods and just considered the 4 skit squads as being podded + the tac marines in a pod = 5 pods.

With the 7 pods you could have 4 drop in (all the skit) and leave 3 for later as per drop pod assault (tac marines and 2 empty pods.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Coteaz himself have to be within 12" of the Deepstriker? Only someone that forgot would be able to use him effectively. Yes, ASMs need to be closer but if Coteaz is that close to the front than the Devs might be able to pick him off. Of the 3 TFCs that has BS6.. xD

Bharring wrote:
So, if CWE play reserve-heavy sans Scorps, who infiltrate, SM can go first or second.

If he goes first, kill the Scorpions. Two turns of shooting/assaulting before the Scorpions can assault, or Reserves come in. And ASM can perform vs Scorpions in Assault if you concentrate them (17ppm vs 17ppm Scorpions, wound on 3s vs wound on 4s). Exarch can make it harder, but that's +40pts for a model that'll kill 2-3 guys a turn. Good, but two ASM squads should take out a Scorpion squad each turn. And after the first, the Devs can charge if they really want to.

Two full turns of both CC and shooting is not a good thing for a T3 unit, even if they're ha 2+ cover and 3+ armor, they aren't going to do well.

If SM goes second, he'll put a cheap unit on the table that won't die to Scorpion pistols, then come in after your reserves T2, blowing up whatever he wants.

LD9 vs 3d6 is failing most of the time. Where are Scorpions getting the reroll from?

If SM come in T1, GtG'ing them is good, but not necessary. Scorpions cannot charge T1.

As for why not charge the HW devs? Because the SM player should put the naked 5man Combat Squad in front of a Scorpion squad if he lacks the resources to at least tie it up.

Also, an Autarch can't start in a unit of Scorpions. So if it starts on the table, its probably dead.

How is the Space Marine player going to move the rest of his army forward fast enough to do any damage? Most of their firepower is in the 24-36" range, and no sensible Eldar player would move forward towards his opponent's deployment zone in this scenario. Stick them in the far back! They get the re-roll from the Aspect Host formation, which I'd think is pretty much always used if you want to take Aspect Warriors these days. Re-roll morale, pinning and regroup. Also, the Autarch doesn't need to be on the table for his ability to work, he just has to be included in the army.

Obviously, if the Space Marine player elected to go second, and come in on turn two, the Eldar player should simply deploy everything and attempt to table his opponent before the formation comes in. Unlike Space Marines, Eldar are fast enough to bring everything to bear on turn one or two.

 Thud wrote:

Okapi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

There are no other targets if the Eldar player simply reserves it all. The formation can't deal with two units of Scorpions, and with an Autarch the Eldar player has pretty decent control of his reserves. They aren't "probably pinned" either, at Ld9 with a re-roll. And why wouldn't they assault the grav-Devs? In any case, the point is to have the Space Marine player blow his expensive alpha strike on a couple of units he can't kill anyway. When the Guardians, Windriders, Warp Spiders and tanks move on from reserves those Assault Marines and Devastators won't last a turn.

There are a couple of problems with your analysis, though.

If you (Eldar) go first and deploy nothing, except for two infiltrating units of Scorpions, the Marine player will have the formation come in on turn one and table you. Remember that those Scorpions will be facing the entire Marine army, not just the formation. And if you've gone for two full units of Scorpions, your army isn't exactly rock hard, so you'll struggle against most top armies.

If you go second, the Marine player will have to choose which turn to deploy the Pods without knowing your deployment. If he goes turn one and you only deploy the Scorpions, it's the same story. If you deploy more stuff he'll get juicier targets and probably kill everything before your reserves come in, making you rely on your beta strike going off perfectly. If he goes for turn two deployment, you stand a better chance, since you get to take out some of his support, and get your buffs up, but at this point you're hoping for your opponent to screw up. Hardly the most reliable strategy.

I'm not saying the formation is going to crush everything in its path, but if you think it's no big deal, you'll be in for a rude awakening once you face off against one piloted by a decent player.

I never said it isn't a big deal. It most certainly is. I'm just saying there are units it will struggle against: Infantry with good armour saves and cover saves, that can also stand up for themselves in close combat. Striking Scorpions is just the most obvious choice, but I suppose Raven Guard infantry and maybe swarms of Gaunts might stand a chance as well.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Null lol, GK null deployment. Nemesis strike force. The grav will enjoy shooting the termies though.

Skyhammer chooses turn 1 or 2. They double null your null.

Saythings wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Coteaz himself have to be within 12" of the Deepstriker? Only someone that forgot would be able to use him effectively. Yes, ASMs need to be closer but if Coteaz is that close to the front than the Devs might be able to pick him off. Of the 3 TFCs that has BS6.. xD

"I’ve Been Expecting You: If an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight, Coteaz and his unit can immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack against it. There is no limit on how many times the ability can be used in a turn."

So Coteaz is eaily dealt with. The special rule doesn't say that his unit has to be within 12", he himself has to be within that range. So if you stick him inside a massive blob of guardsmen there's not much of a chance of you using this special rule. I feel that the Inquisition codex can be used pretty effectively in conjunction with the Skyhammer, but not as a defender. An Inquisitor or two with 3 servo-skulls each is a pretty solid investment if you're looking for more DS accuracy. Don't really know how necessary it'd be but something to keep in mind.

First thought for moving the rest of the SM army forward is more Pods.

Second thought is Rhinos. With Pitched deployment, move up 6", disembark 6". You're now shooting the far board edge. Not ideal, but only because SM have much better options. Lots of toys will hit anywhere they want.

Rerolling a LD9 vs 3d6 is about 40% *success* rate. Still failing more likely than not.

And things like Scorpions aren't doing any damage flif they aren't getting close.

Whoops. Nevermind.

FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

The rerolls make them terrifying. But honestly, *only* 1-2 HP on almost any tank, with an EV of more than 1 being a pen is amazing for only 85 pts. Not enough? Take another squad, too!

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

As I read it, you will have to take the Ld test if you have gone to ground or not at the end of phase. If you fail, you are must go to ground but you are already on the ground. Not sure how that then interacts with the AM special rules, where they get rerolls IFF the unit was forced to gtg as result of the failed test.

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

As I read it, you will have to take the Ld test if you have gone to ground or not at the end of phase. If you fail, you are must go to ground but you are already on the ground. Not sure how that then interacts with the AM special rules, where they get rerolls IFF the unit was forced to gtg as result of the failed test.

I may be mistaken but if an unit has gtg it does not have to test to gtg as it is already there. Ie you can't pin an unit that is already pinned.

blaktoof wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
FWIW the assault marines rerolls to hit and wound are contingent on the unit going to ground from the dev attack, you could always opt to voluntarily go to ground when shot by the devs which means you dont have to test to gtg from the result of their attack to deny them that bonus

As I read it, you will have to take the Ld test if you have gone to ground or not at the end of phase. If you fail, you are must go to ground but you are already on the ground. Not sure how that then interacts with the AM special rules, where they get rerolls IFF the unit was forced to gtg as result of the failed test.

I may be mistaken but if an unit has gtg it does not have to test to gtg as it is already there. Ie you can't pin an unit that is already pinned.

It still has to test, but it doesn't count as having G2G because of the special rule.

I'm not sure if that is correct, the rule says the unit must go to ground which highly suggests it is a modified pinning test. Units that have already gone to ground don't test to go to ground again . Given the rule is tied to going to ground by the must statement, the unit can't be forced into a state it was already in. The special rule for the assault marines specifies they have to go to ground from the fusilade, if the unit has gone to ground before the fusilade test they did not go to ground because of the fusilade and the assault special rule does not meet its criteria to work.

So strictly RAW if you opt to go to ground before the test the test cannot force you to go to ground, the assault special rule requires you go to ground from the fusilade and since that did not happen they cannot benefit from it.

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Decurion Detachment) ++

+ Core +

Reclamation Legion
··Catacomb Command Barge [Tesla Cannon]
····Overlord [Warscythe]
··Immortals
····5x Immortal [5x Tesla Carbine]
··Tomb Blades
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

+ Auxiliary +

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

1994 thank you for turning up, bye bye IoM.