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Ffyllotek wrote:

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Decurion Detachment) ++

+ Core +

Reclamation Legion
··Catacomb Command Barge [Tesla Cannon]
····Overlord [Warscythe]
··Immortals
····5x Immortal [5x Tesla Carbine]
··Tomb Blades
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blade [Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]
··Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

+ Auxiliary +

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

Deathmarks [10x Deathmark]

1994 thank you for turning up, bye bye IoM.

Go second. Wait for most of the deathmarks to hit the table. Bring in the SAF. Bam. Also, what's this list going to do against practically any other army?

Yep. As is always the case, a list only counts as a "counter" if it's reasonably TAC. 100% tailored lists that will get gak on by any other list in existence sans the one it's specifically designed to beat isn't very viable.

And for that matter, who owns 80 death marks? You're going to go out and buy 60 deathmarks to beat just one list? By comparison, most SM players who've been in the game for more than 5 years will probably have most of the models needed for Skyhammer.

Okapi wrote:Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

Edit: Miscalculated! Used four grav-cannons, not eight. Well, two Barges then.

Edit #2: No, completely wrong again. 24 shots, 16 hits, 4,88 glances, 2,44 hull points, or 1,63 at night. Reasonably chances of Barge surviving the shooting phase.

Really important aspect to consider; the barge is deployed and the pods/ASM get to counter-deploy.

The best counter is simple.. Zooming/Flying MC. Second best is high cover saves. Third is MSU. Fourth maybe massed AV (but it all depends on if Grav is going to be all-comers... I'm tempted to fill a 3rd FA pod with arc rifles)

I haven't done any math with it, but I'm starting to think some kind of Mechanized Eldar force wouldn't fare so badly against the Skyhammer formation.

Have several Eldar skimmers - ideally Wave Serpents, to use the Serpent Shield for max survivability - with Spirit Stones and Holofields. Put some deadly occupants inside; Wraithguard and Fire Dragons to make sure the Assault Marines die after they drop.

There's a chance that the skimmers will still take damage, but with Jink saves, the Shield, and the Holofield to protect somewhat against krak grenades and power fists, the skimmers should still be alive.

Combine that mechanized core with a Wraithknight in as much cover as possible, and I'm thinking Suncannon, Shield, and secondary gun. It might distract the Devastators from the skimmers, and if it survives it can go hunt down the devastators.

Maybe a Crimson Hunter or two in reserve.

Amusing idea: take red hunters chapter tactics to get sky fire or interceptor on your devs a part of SAF.

Yeah, as a nid player I would say stick some venomthropes/malanthropes into ruins/terrain with as many other ground models as possible and then go flying circus.

could a single unit of say warp spider and am wall of martyrs imperial bunker do the job.

Say i deploy a single 5 man unit of warp spider behind the bunker in a line butted up against the bunker.. I get deep struck by the formation and they basically all land near me, or close enough to shoot. theoretically i can simply jump back and forth through the imperial bunker out of LOS of the attacking unit (and moving into the LOS of a different unit), than when that second unit fires on me, i can once again just jump through the bunker and be on the other side again, where the first unit cant shoot at me because its already "shot" that turn. The bunker is not very wide, even a poor of 3 or more on 2d6 should easily be enough to warp through it.

Coteaz
10 skitarii vanguard with warlord and three plasma calivers
Deploy in ruins, everything else reserve.

Still lose. I know because we ran a mock game. And while one unit of assault marines that scattered too close did get annihilated, the devs shot them off the table.

Yeah, I think deploying up against board edges with Land Speeder Storms around the edges might help. (They double scatter distance for anything within 12".)

Warp spiders only work if you shoot them. If you just charge, they die. Bunker of wraith scythes works.

Terminal wrote:
I haven't done any math with it, but I'm starting to think some kind of Mechanized Eldar force wouldn't fare so badly against the Skyhammer formation.

Have several Eldar skimmers - ideally Wave Serpents, to use the Serpent Shield for max survivability - with Spirit Stones and Holofields. Put some deadly occupants inside; Wraithguard and Fire Dragons to make sure the Assault Marines die after they drop.

There's a chance that the skimmers will still take damage, but with Jink saves, the Shield, and the Holofield to protect somewhat against krak grenades and power fists, the skimmers should still be alive.

Combine that mechanized core with a Wraithknight in as much cover as possible, and I'm thinking Suncannon, Shield, and secondary gun. It might distract the Devastators from the skimmers, and if it survives it can go hunt down the devastators.

Maybe a Crimson Hunter or two in reserve.

That sounds great, but it's brick ton of points to deal with 2 devastator and 2 assault squads


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Amusing idea: take red hunters chapter tactics to get sky fire or interceptor on your devs a part of SAF.

It's too bad there wasn't reverse interceptor. As the drop pods descend, guns fire down at stuff!

Oh, I know, Talys. It's not a 'tool' to counter the formation, but rather an army style to minimize losses against it. But I think that, with the proper weapon and support unit choices, it could also be a pretty good TAC list.

I'm not sure if Eldar really has a specific tool to counter Skyhammer. It has no Interceptor. But what Eldar does have is some very durable units.

Not sure if chief's warp spider idea would work all that well. I mean, unless your whole army was composed of Spiders and Bunkers, I'd think the Marine player would concentrate on the other parts of your army first.

Razerous wrote:

Okapi wrote:Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

Edit: Miscalculated! Used four grav-cannons, not eight. Well, two Barges then.

Edit #2: No, completely wrong again. 24 shots, 16 hits, 4,88 glances, 2,44 hull points, or 1,63 at night. Reasonably chances of Barge surviving the shooting phase.

Really important aspect to consider; the barge is deployed and the pods/ASM get to counter-deploy.

The best counter is simple.. Zooming/Flying MC. Second best is high cover saves. Third is MSU. Fourth maybe massed AV (but it all depends on if Grav is going to be all-comers... I'm tempted to fill a 3rd FA pod with arc rifles)

The barge in assault would be hitting the lord not the chariot....the attacker picks in cc.

The best counter to this is bodies. That unit can only murder 3-4 thing when it hits and then it is dead.
ORKS and khorne daemonkin have no issues handling this.

Why not run a couple Void Shield Generators? You have to score a Glancing or Penetrating hit, so Grav would effectively do nothing against it, right? The marine player would have to fire a melta or something to try and take it out first. Then bubble wrap yourself with a unit to take the charge.

With Skyhammer, that many PA in your backfield isn't trivial to remove, especially after it does all its gak.

If you can hide the rear arc, Serpents have a decent chance to tank a lot of shots, but an equal-points ASM squad will wreck it on assault. And, if the rear arc is covered, has a good chance at destroying the contents when they can't disembark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scytheguard in bunkers sound good.

Until the Devs come down 24" away and blast at max range, or engage other things. Either way, they might not destroy you T1, but they win the game.

autopilot wrote:
Why not run a couple Void Shield Generators? You have to score a Glancing or Penetrating hit, so Grav would effectively do nothing against it, right? The marine player would have to fire a melta or something to try and take it out first. Then bubble wrap yourself with a unit to take the charge.

I know my SAF is running multi-meltas.

gungo wrote:

And assault Squads still scatter badly.
I also find devastators and assault Squads usually have different targets.

Scout bikes with teleport homers are cheap!
Devastators open up the transports, and the assault squads eat the passengers!

This is a very strong alpha strike formation. Null deployment, spread out, and MSU will help. Interceptor may also help thin the assault marines or the devastators, depending on what you're more worried about.

Terminal wrote:
Oh, I know, Talys. It's not a 'tool' to counter the formation, but rather an army style to minimize losses against it. But I think that, with the proper weapon and support unit choices, it could also be a pretty good TAC list.

I'm not sure if Eldar really has a specific tool to counter Skyhammer. It has no Interceptor. But what Eldar does have is some very durable units.

Not sure if chief's warp spider idea would work all that well. I mean, unless your whole army was composed of Spiders and Bunkers, I'd think the Marine player would concentrate on the other parts of your army first.

to clarify imagine deploying said bunker in the back left or right corner of your deployment zone with the open bunker side facing the table edge. imagine something like this (the exclamation mark and bottom line are the table/side edge and the backslash is the bunker that would but up against atleast one table edge completely blocking LOS from that side)

!
!_\_____

I could deploy nothing but one unit of spiders and im confident i cant move them in and out of LOS of everything involved in a single skyhammer formation landing and trying to shoot at me. It would be difficult landing all those jump troops and drop pods around it to begin with, but im actually pretty confident i can simply jump in and out of LOS and if need be jump right into the bunker to also not allow LOS from the assault squads. Either way i will be trying to out the firstime i face the formation. As for the rest of the list, unless its indirect fire, they to will not even have LOS of the single cornered bunker and warp spiders.

and to the guy talking about scythes- the two real killers of this formation are assault out of deep strike and the ability of the devs to block overwatch making the scythes useless.

Can spiders make their move if they G2G?

stopcallingmechief wrote:

and to the guy talking about scythes- the two real killers of this formation are assault out of deep strike and the ability of the devs to block overwatch making the scythes useless.

The devs have to pop the bunker before they can fire on the Wraithguard. Firing on the bunker would only prevent the bunker from firing overwatch, not the passengers (who have not been fired on).
With an escape hatch, the bunker wraithguard can disembark at a pretty good range. Possibly taking them out of assault range.

The skyhammer need multi-meltas to be able to pop bunkers, and needs grav to be able to pop wraithknights. Raiders with night shields (3+ jink) have a good shot at surviving a full grav dev squad (but will die to the krak grenade assault).
I think the sky hammer looks better on paper than in practice; and I'm far more worried about a skyhammer combined with 10 free razorbacks from the other formation. A turn 2 drop to hit key units advancing on your battle lines might prove more effective than a turn 1 alpha strike.

But for that to work, they need to be the most-vaible target through turn 2. Which means having an army of nothing but guys in bunkers. The SM player can just deep strike out of range. If you try to come to him, he destroys you. While he claims most Objectives.

Raiders will do terribly against the ASM, especially if they take Flamers.

One Grotesquerie, allied with Corpse Thief Claw, two Cast of Players.

Is there any reason the SM player can't attach ICs to the Skyhammer formation?

mercury14 wrote:
Is there any reason the SM player can't attach ICs to the Skyhammer formation?

No, but the debate about whether you can charge with ICs is raging in YMDC.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

and to the guy talking about scythes- the two real killers of this formation are assault out of deep strike and the ability of the devs to block overwatch making the scythes useless.

The devs have to pop the bunker before they can fire on the Wraithguard. Firing on the bunker would only prevent the bunker from firing overwatch, not the passengers (who have not been fired on).
With an escape hatch, the bunker wraithguard can disembark at a pretty good range. Possibly taking them out of assault range.

The skyhammer need multi-meltas to be able to pop bunkers, and needs grav to be able to pop wraithknights. Raiders with night shields (3+ jink) have a good shot at surviving a full grav dev squad (but will die to the krak grenade assault).
I think the sky hammer looks better on paper than in practice; and I'm far more worried about a skyhammer combined with 10 free razorbacks from the other formation. A turn 2 drop to hit key units advancing on your battle lines might prove more effective than a turn 1 alpha strike.

while assault marines will wreck most vehicles they charge, dropping nearenough a vehilce to charge is tricky. Vehicles are big and scattering into them would be bad. Particularly if those vehilces are less than a hundred points, the risk might not equal the reward.

Depends on the size of the squad? I was thinking combat squad a 10man? Sub-100pts each?

Whether or not you go to ground willingly to avoid the no overwatch SR, going to ground near assault units and/or units that possibly have flamers is extremely dangerous. The unit that GTG is basically off the board for a turn and can be safely ignored. In a worst case scenario, it would let the assault marines shoot fire, stand around for a turn, and reposition to shoot more fire the next turn and still probably charge. In either case you don't want to go to ground if you can help it.

pickled_heretic wrote:
Whether or not you go to ground willingly to avoid the no overwatch SR, going to ground near assault units and/or units that possibly have flamers is extremely dangerous. The unit that GTG is basically off the board for a turn and can be safely ignored. In a worst case scenario, it would let the assault marines shoot fire, stand around for a turn, and reposition to shoot more fire the next turn and still probably charge. In either case you don't want to go to ground if you can help it.

IG commanders can order them to stand back up or you can have a mobile fearless bubble and bring it in range.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

As I posted in the thread in General Discussion before it was locked, this formation has only two real weaknesses:

1. Deep Strike unreliability. The assault squads still scatter, which means a potential mishap and/or moving out of charge range. The drop pods for the Devastators also count towards the Drop Pod Assualt rule, meaning it can play havoc with any other podded squads.

As I have not seen this pointed outin the thread yet, this is not the case.

"Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule."

It is actually a strength of the formation, you get the 2 dev. squad plus what ever else you want.

Take more bodies of Guardsmen. Hopefully with fearless and or counter attack

Lets see you charge now

(as well chances are the devs will only have Grav cannons so guardsmen will be much less effected)

Second though mass DT would work well too. sure you will probably lose FB but now you get to charge at like 400 points worth of stuff right in front of you. and off vehicles they wont be consolidating.