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Bharring wrote:
It takes what, 4-5 ASM assaulting a 10-man Windrider Jetbike squad to win in CC?

How many does it take to win against 10-20 Necron Warriors?

Hm. Assuming a unit of 5, (not doing Power Weapons or Eviscerators because math is difficult enough), you have 5 HoW hits and 16 Attacks (3 on the charge each, 4 on the charge for Sarge), rerolling to hits and to wounds from the Formation Bonus. Assuming Decurion, becuase yes almost always Decurion.

HoW: 5 hits, 3.75Wounds, .9375 wounds after Armor and RP
Attacks: 12 Hits, 9 Wounds, 2.25 wounds after Armor and RP

So they kill ~3 Warriors in Assault. Each Warrior only deals .08 wounds in return, so the likelyhood of them tying or winning is pretty small. But, if they kill one or two, LD10 means they're probably going to stay in.

Against a 10 strong ASM unit, yeah you probably will kill and Sweep the Warriors.

Its also not reasonable to think they wont take the chainsaw and power sticks. (because this is like the only opportunity for them to actually get gak done. so why skimp on equipment )

What power weapon to take might be a better discussion though.

What about naked ASM squads charging units Devs didn't shoot at? Even with LD10, the Devs have a 50/50 of pinning the Necrons.

 Desubot wrote:
Its also not reasonable to think they wont take the chainsaw and power sticks. (because this is like the only opportunity for them to actually get gak done. so why skimp on equipment )

What power weapon to take might be a better discussion though.

Right, as I said, I just skipped it because it would take much longer to math out and I'm sorta lazy.

There's a very good shot at outright killing a unit between Grav and Assault. But, you can mitigate it in nearly any army by either being MSU so it's not a serious loss, or by bubble wrapping anything valuable with expendable stuff, or keeping things in reserve if the situation makes sense for it.

It's a very strong formation. Second best for SM after the utterly broken Librarius Conclave. But, it's not an instawin..

Requizen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Its also not reasonable to think they wont take the chainsaw and power sticks. (because this is like the only opportunity for them to actually get gak done. so why skimp on equipment )

What power weapon to take might be a better discussion though.

Right, as I said, I just skipped it because it would take much longer to math out and I'm sorta lazy.

There's a very good shot at outright killing a unit between Grav and Assault. But, you can mitigate it in nearly any army by either being MSU so it's not a serious loss, or by bubble wrapping anything valuable with expendable stuff, or keeping things in reserve if the situation makes sense for it.

It's a very strong formation. Second best for SM after the utterly broken Librarius Conclave. But, it's not an instawin..

It's an instawin against a non-trivial subset of lists and list archetypes.

I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Martel is correct if this formation goes first - you win. at 1850.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Wont some one PLEASE think of the lemons!
Well i guess if they take blobs it wont be too bad.

I cant wait to see how this does against most lists.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Sure, but that's not a bad thing. It's just another item in the counter list. If it hard counters certain lists and does very little against others, then it's fine imo.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that its alpha strike killing power will outright hard counter many lists out there.

I'm saying that its other capabilities are even scarier than said alpha killing power...

Bharring wrote:
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I agree that its alpha strike killing power will outright hard counter many lists out there.

I'm saying that its other capabilities are even scarier than said alpha killing power...

Yes, my assessment is the same. Not being able to assault is one of the things that makes deep striking any BA unit automatically kinda meh. Which flies in the face of decent of angels, blah blah. The killing power combined with tie up ability of this formation is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I think it certainly could be kitted to annihilate any one unit. But its probably best at disabling multiple.

Up to 4 uberPinning tests (50/50 at best, frequently much better) atop their firepower.

Up to 4 85pt 5-man ASM units. Tie up Necron Warriors or Jetbikes or whatever. Even if you don't sweep them- even if you don't eventually win - you can still lock them up easily. Or put a pen or two on most vehicles from each squad.

That's 8 targets you could potentially tie up for a round. You should be able to disable 4 non-fearless Infantry units this way.

So yes, good alpha. But even better at locking down an entire army. While placing 20 MEQs in their backfield.

the Alpha killing everything isn't what really scares me about skyhammer.

I never said it killed everything. It is a push-button win against a number of lists and list archetypes, though.

Sure, but that's not a bad thing. It's just another item in the counter list. If it hard counters certain lists and does very little against others, then it's fine imo.

It counters too much and is weak against too little. Many of the things it is weak to aren't good in general to boot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel is correct if this formation goes first - you win. at 1850.

At more than 1850, just bring more than one formation.

What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

 PipeAlley wrote:
What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

25 pts 2xS, AP2, Unwieldy and Armorbane.

 PipeAlley wrote:
What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

Rules are in the BRB

Context clues from before should show you who can take it.

Costs i forget but its about a power fist i think. maybe more.

Edit: Pretre you 1 second bastard!

Edit: Actually nevermind it appears to have been 2min, 1 second still

 Desubot wrote:
Pretre you 1 second bastard!

That's what she said.

 pretre wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
What are the rules/stats of an Eviserator? Is it like the IG one? Two-handed PF? Or is more like a Chainfist? Can only the Sarge take it? How many PF's does it cost?

25 pts 2xS, AP2, Unwieldy and Armorbane.

So the exact same cost as a PF but has Armorbane? Did PF go down in price? Seems too good to not take at least one.

As far as context goes, sometimes people misquote or forget, hence going to the source is a good idea.



Thanks!

That's assuming I remembered correctly. But yes.

That being said, it's a 2H weapon on a 1A model. It isn't OMFG good.

Requizen wrote:
Do people really consider the Assault Marines that scary? I mean, they're better than Marines, but they're not Vanguard or highly specialized Assault unit. Best they can do it 1 Eviscerator per 5 dudes and a Power weapon on the Sergeant, right?

As for Crons, I wouldn't even care that much. Decurion, starting in cover. Cover and 4+++ just laughs at most Alpha Strikes that aren't StrD. I realize most other armies can't do that, but hey, Crons are Crons.

The devs can come down 5take out high value targets with the grav cannons. 20 shots rerolling hits and wounds is still going to put some dent in the cover+RP. It will then also make them GTG
Then the combat squaded bolter squad wont kill anything, but will make another squad GTG

The assault marines charging in and rerolling hits and wounds might cause a unit to break. They wont do much damage but they could ponentially win the combat. 3 times as many attacks, rerolling hits and wounds is going to put out more damage against the crons then they are going to take and the crons arent so could be swept.


Is it great? No, but it isnt a counter. The skyhammer is doing better than standard SM would.

Against MSU you can split the cannons. Each combat squad takin 10 grav shots and you kill 2 units each that way. MSU isn't a counter unless your units are really cheap or have some way of surviving 10 grav shots.

I would assume that tying up shooting units would be assault marines best use. Let whatever melta you have pop tanks like serpents with WG, then let the assault marines charge the WG. I think someone said that the assault marines have something that can even deny overwatch, making d-scythes useless, but if it is a pinning test then WG are fearless anyway. You could also tie up dark reapers, fire dragons, scatbikes, and so on. Forces the opponent to keep these units off the table.

Played two games against the sky hammer.
Game 1, he went with 6 grav and 2 meltas, which was far too many grav, and he had to get far too close. Landing turn 1, it was a decent alpha strike, but cover and disposable units limited the damage. The close up devs got munched.

Game 2, the Skyhammer game down with 8 missile launchers, on turn 2. The cheaper skyhammer intercepted my advance, pinned units all over the place, and picked off some strays. The devs landed at long range in safe firing positions, and continued to dump in fire for turns after they landed.

IMO, the cheaper skyhammer landing turn 2 is far more dangerous. You can bubble wrap against an alpha strike, but if that hammer drops on turn 2, you waste your first turn maintaining your bubble.
In the 3rd game, (me watching this time) the hammer dropped bottom of 2, and the opponent had deployed spread out to try and limit damage. The marines hit one flank hard, dropped onto the softer flank and then turned both forces toward the center.

I'm going to say turn 2 drop is the way to go.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Played two games against the sky hammer.
Game 1, he went with 6 grav and 2 meltas, which was far too many grav, and he had to get far too close. Landing turn 1, it was a decent alpha strike, but cover and disposable units limited the damage. The close up devs got munched.

Game 2, the Skyhammer game down with 8 missile launchers, on turn 2. The cheaper skyhammer intercepted my advance, pinned units all over the place, and picked off some strays. The devs landed at long range in safe firing positions, and continued to dump in fire for turns after they landed.

IMO, the cheaper skyhammer landing turn 2 is far more dangerous. You can bubble wrap against an alpha strike, but if that hammer drops on turn 2, you waste your first turn maintaining your bubble.
In the 3rd game, (me watching this time) the hammer dropped bottom of 2, and the opponent had deployed spread out to try and limit damage. The marines hit one flank hard, dropped onto the softer flank and then turned both forces toward the center.

I'm going to say turn 2 drop is the way to go.

Anecdotal evidence and all that, but my thinking is also along these lines too. If you're not going for a full pod army, by turn two there would be plenty of weak spots to attack and take out.

Played against this formation with my Farsight Enclaves and I'm very happy to say that my army counters it pretty well. I ran one Riptide with interceptor but also my broadsides and my x2 teams of missile pod crisis suits had Interceptor (have been running them this way for a while now due to the high number of drop pod armies in my local meta) and thanks to some good rolls was able to mitigate the damage quite significantly. I was able to obliterate an entire Devastator squad with grav cannons with my missile pod crisis suit teams and my broadsides while the Riptide took a good chunk out of the other unit. Even then the Devastators almost one shot at him in a single turn of shooting with three grav cannons but his assault marines were unable to charge it thanks to a screen of crisis suits in front of it. still a very scary formation to face and I think I am going to continue to put interceptor on everything I possibly can just in case I come across this or other drop pod armies (which is the biggest weakness of my pure suit Tau list).

Counter the skyhammer? Ok, sure:

MSU Wyches and Space Dogs.

3 CADs:

3x Lhamaeans
18x5 Wyches w/Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Grenades
2x10 Space Dogs (aka Khymera)
Total: 1850

I don't think this would actually be a great list, but I think it'd be funny to run 113 10 point models, and I almost have the models to run it. I used to run a dual CAD of 12 units of 5 haywire wyches in venoms.

Seriously though, the skyhammer is difficult to counter because it can be taken with a wide variety of other things. There are a number of tactics that haven't really been fully considered here. For instance, rather than taking the UM chapter tactics, someone using the skyhammer formation could take white scars tactics, thus giving all their ASM squads Hit&Run. This would alter the ASMs job to just tying up scary units that weren't pinned by initial volleys long enough for the shooty units to finish other units off, and for additional marine support to arrive from the other side of the board. Then they happily skip out of the melee while their friends shoot them up. Rinse and repeat. Tie up their units so they can't shoot, then use H&R to get out of combat so you can shoot them freely.

This is assuming the new codex still has the hit & run chapter tactic for white scars. I don't have the new codex yet.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Counter the skyhammer? Ok, sure:

MSU Wyches and Space Dogs.

3 CADs:

3x Lhamaeans
18x5 Wyches w/Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Grenades
2x10 Space Dogs (aka Khymera)
Total: 1850

2x10 dogs? far too easy to break with Ld terrible.
You've got 9 fast attack slots, use them.
Go with 8 units of 1 dog, 1 unit of 12 dogs.

This reminds me on the DOA rule for BA in the 5th Ed.
But the scatter was halved and reserve rolls could be re rolled.

Assault Marines are not scary at all when they are in cc.
The concern is the shooting with flamers or meltas.
Dispensable units bubble wrapping more precious units are key, also an optimal reserve strategy.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I say just use the gladius and food the board with free razorhbacks and drop pods. What's that? You killed 3 first turn how about 7 more?

Gladius with full battle is really pricey. Probably not fieldable in an 1850 list

 Johnnytorrance wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I say just use the gladius and food the board with free razorhbacks and drop pods. What's that? You killed 3 first turn how about 7 more?

Gladius with full battle is really pricey. Probably not fieldable in an 1850 list

Oh, it most definitely is fieldable in 1850 list.

I can have: (2 Battle Demi Companies(Battle Company) + Armored Task Force)

1 Captain
1 Chaplain
1 Techmarine
3x5 Tactical Marines in Razorbacks with Twin-Linked Lascannons and Hunter Killer Missiles
3x5 Tactical Marines in Razorbacks with Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters and Hunter Killer Missiles
2x5 Assault Marines w/2 Flamers, one in a Drop Pod, other in a Rhino with 2 Storm Bolters & Hunter Killer missile
2x5 Devastators with 4 missile launchers + flakk missiles - Dedicated Transport:(Not putting devs inside) Razorback with Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters, and Hunter Killer Missiles
3 Predators with Autocannons and 2 Lascannons
70 points left for upgrades in 1850 list.

With the list above, you'd have 24 S8-S9 Shots in your first turn, 20 S6 Shots with Rending, and tons of bolter fire available, spread across 8 Razorbacks, 3 Predators, a Rhino, and a Drop Pod. Both assault squads have flamers, so the one in the Rhino can fire two flamers out the top hatch, and the one's in the drop pod arrive 1st turn, hop out of the drop pod and cook something. I'd probably use 40 of those 70 leftover points to purchase the upgrade to the Captain so you can add his orbital strike to your alpha strike, and keep him in the Rhino with the Assault flamers. The firepower of this list drops off a bit after the first turn, having spent your HK missiles, but then comes the real beauty of this list: It's all Obsec and hard to kill. So, you alpha strike your opponent turn 1, knocking out his teeth, then watch as they spend all game trying to catch up and failing. The list isn't going to table your opponent, but you're going to cripple him right away, then spend the game grinding it out against a crippled force who no longer has the teeth to whittle you down.

I'd use either Iron Hands chapter tactics for durability(It will not die on vehicles, and 6+ FnP on troops), or Ultramarines to be able to reroll 1's to hit every round. The Ultramarines tactics would be good for your alpha strike, and every round thereafter, but if you went with them instead, I'd reccomend swapping out all of the twin-linked Razorback Lascannons for the equivalently priced Lascannon + TL Plasma Gun. I might even consider swapping out the Assault Cannons for lascannon + TL Plasma Guns if using Ultramarines. You'd use a tactic every turn, probably starting with Devastator so Devs reroll all misses, and everyone else rerolls 1's. Then everything would at the very least reroll 1's for the next 4 turns.

For the record, that is 510 points worth of free vehicles in this 1850 list. Or, alternatively, you could view it as a 2360 list in 1850 camouflage.

 pretre wrote:
That's assuming I remembered correctly. But yes.

That being said, it's a 2H weapon on a 1A model. It isn't OMFG good.

Any model in the unit can take it. I'm putting it on my vet.

-Matt