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Much like Tinkerbell, GW only exists through the belief of its audience, although I believe in GW's case it's the shaking of fists rather than clapping.

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:
Maybe some of old-timers chose to leave because they got tired of the same old thing and wanted something new?

They could have also left because there were other things they wanted to pursue, like the Perry Twins, and felt they didn't need to work for GW anymore.

The gaming industry has expanded significantly over the last 10 years, there are more opportunities (only for some) in the industry and maybe they had their own ideas for games and miniatures and wanted to explore them, like Warlord Games and Mantic did.

I don't dispute that people had been "railroaded" out of GW, but people do leave of the own accord for their own reasons as well.

Yeah, like Enigwolf said, some people who have been at GW have been there for decades. There are so many reasons to physically move -- wanting to do something different doesn't mean what you're doing is bad, or there might be family physically somewhere else, or it might be as simple as your wife having a great opportunity in another part of the world.

I'm sure some people have left on better terms than others. You don't see flaming firebrands, though, who have leave with a trail of fiery rhetoric against the company, the way you see with some of the top executives who have been edged out of Google or Microsoft or Apple. Or at least, if there are, I haven't much heard about them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:

 keezus wrote:

-edit- I'm a bit dismayed with some of the responses to Vyxen: Honesetly, if people believe that the product that GW is putting out is providing good value... there's no need to rain all over their enthusiasm. To a new entrant to the hobby, the pricing structure of the past really isn't here nor there.

I think Vyxen had the bad fortune to wander into a howlers situation.

Don't take it too personally, Vyxen! We don't want to chase you off under a shower of, um... invective. Like we said, we do know what it's like to be excited and enthusiastic about a new hobby or a game. It's just that for some of us, the head-scratching changes constantly implemented by GW (not just price rises) mean that we don't get that from them so much, anymore, compared to other games in the hobby; and it looks like it's slowly killing the company, which we wouldn't argue about if we didn't still care about the game or the miniatures or the setting in some way, or the gamers who might be left high and dry to some extent.

To Vyxen's original points, though, they did have some merit. I'm probably as guilty as anyone else for buying stuff because the box or art looks nice (after all, this is why I impulse-bought my first infinity models, first Privateer Press models, etc), and for people who are just starting the hobby, if they go to the PP section of the store, and then to the 40k section of the store (which will be the two largest sections), they won't see that one is much cheaper than the other. And all those PP blisters of old metal models that fill a slatwall aren't very pretty. They have no "cover art" so to speak.

If someone isn't concerned about the total price of the army, and they're more interested in cool miniatures, there's a good chance they'll just grab the 40k stuff. I know there's a lot of focus on price, but let's face it, to a lot of people, a thousand bucks for entertainment broken up into a few chunks is NOT a lot of money. They spend that on car stereos and computer video cards and Xboxes and vacations and whatever. You don't have to be rich to spend that kind of money. The trick is just to be employed and not have kids Then it's just about where you spend your extra money. Do you buy a new army, or do you go on a trip?

I also get her $50 / $100 thing even though it sounds weird. To put a real model into context, if I'm at the store, if I want Borka on the bear, I just buy him, even though he's a $60 solo or whatever. I don't think, "Gee, I could buy another box of trollblood scattergunners instead, and it would even cost less."

Her reason for buying the Limited Edition is probably the best one too, because it's nice to feel spoiled getting something for your b-day that you wouldn't normally be able to justify as a purchase for yourself. I mean, I don't think I'll ever buy an LE for myself, but I'd be thrilled to get one as a present. Why can't GW time a good codex around my birthday :(

 Talys wrote:

If someone isn't concerned about the total price of the army, and they're more interested in cool miniatures, there's a good chance they'll just grab the 40k stuff.

I'm not sure why you are so convinced that those in search of "cool miniatures" will head straight for 40k, do not pass go, do buy other products. :-/

IMHO, the quoted statement is true if/or:

1. If you are a fan of the GW lore / aesthetic
2. You wish to play the 40k game
3. GW is the only manufacturer of the strange thing-a-ma-bob that you are after: i.e. Skitarii Ironstrider, Khorne Riding Lawnmower, Grey Knight baby carrier or Pumbagore.

 Talys wrote:
I know there's a lot of focus on price, but let's face it, to a lot of people, a thousand bucks for entertainment broken up into a few chunks is NOT a lot of money.

Its not much for us who are already heavily invested in the hobby. Us grognards typically have good jobs. Its a metric crap-ton of money for those who are in lower earning brackets, have a mortgage (or as you mentioned: kids), or are a student. 80% of my 40k expenditures in college were second hand buys. GW's aggressive pricing structure restricts potential buys from this demographic. Maybe it's all part of a plan - I'm not a business person, but IMHO, having a wider customer base can't be a bad thing.

 keezus wrote:

 Talys wrote:

If someone isn't concerned about the total price of the army, and they're more interested in cool miniatures, there's a good chance they'll just grab the 40k stuff.

I'm not sure why you are so convinced that those in search of "cool miniatures" will head straight for 40k, do not pass go, do buy other products. :-/

Actually, if someone wants "cool minis" and is not concerned about pricing, I'd say they'd rather grab the Hitech Miniatures stuff before any GW product.

 keezus wrote:

 Talys wrote:

If someone isn't concerned about the total price of the army, and they're more interested in cool miniatures, there's a good chance they'll just grab the 40k stuff.

I'm not sure why you are so convinced that those in search of "cool miniatures" will head straight for 40k, do not pass go, do buy other products. :-/

IMHO, the quoted statement is true if/or:

1. If you are a fan of the GW lore / aesthetic
2. You wish to play the 40k game
3. GW is the only manufacturer of the strange thing-a-ma-bob that you are after: i.e. Skitarii Ironstrider, Khorne Riding Lawnmower, Grey Knight baby carrier or Pumbagore.

No argument there.

I'd add, however, that if you go into most hobby shops, 40k has the nicest looking displayed boxes. If you took all the price tags off, and someone could just fill a shopping basket with a few boxes of neat looking stuff, 40k would do well. Privateer Press has a very impressive display, but at most stores, half the display is of metal blisters that don't show a painted model.

I mean, I don't buy a game that way (though I might buy a few models on impulse like that from any given manufacturer), but I was just supporting Vyxen's comment that some people shop this way.

 Talys wrote:
I know there's a lot of focus on price, but let's face it, to a lot of people, a thousand bucks for entertainment broken up into a few chunks is NOT a lot of money.

Its not much for us who are already heavily invested in the hobby. Us grognards typically have good jobs. Its a metric crap-ton of money for those who are in lower earning brackets, have a mortgage (or as you mentioned: kids), or are a student. 80% of my 40k expenditures in college were second hand buys. GW's aggressive pricing structure restricts potential buys from this demographic. Maybe it's all part of a plan - I'm not a business person, but IMHO, having a wider customer base can't be a bad thing.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I have noticed that there exists a group of people who love the idea of making 40k armies. That group then buys an army and paints a couple of models. They then quickly move to a new army do the same thing. Some of these people sell before moving on, others horde.

I personally think its these people who spend a load of cash on GW more so than anyone else. One of my friends is like this. Constantly buys whole armies then sells them really cheap. Loves coming up with army ideas but doesn't look like he actually enjoys playing the game.

Of course there are people who do this and love the game, but in my experience there aren't heaps of those.

The amount of money people from this group spends is huge. Add the cost of a 1800 point army, then (in the case of a friend) multiply that by 10+ armies and it adds up.

Almost like an addiction really.

But other than financial reports there isn't really hard info on GW and their downfall. As much as I think they won't last people have been saying it's coming since before my time.

Dang I just realized this is me..

 Korinov wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 Talys wrote:

If someone isn't concerned about the total price of the army, and they're more interested in cool miniatures, there's a good chance they'll just grab the 40k stuff.

I'm not sure why you are so convinced that those in search of "cool miniatures" will head straight for 40k, do not pass go, do buy other products. :-/

Actually, if someone wants "cool minis" and is not concerned about pricing, I'd say they'd rather grab the Hitech Miniatures stuff before any GW product.

unless, like me, you think that Hitech minis are incredibly ugly...
i would not buy them, personally...
you would literally have to pay me to paint one, as their models do nothing or me...
same goes for Scibor's version of "not" Adeptus Astartes...

all i collect are what i feel are "cool minis", and i can honestly say that GW minis are my absolute favorite minis to collect and paint...
as a kid growing up, they were my choice of Ral Partha or Grenadier...
now, 30 years later, they are still my choice over Infinity, PP, or any other minis...
i still buy the minis i like from every manufacturer on the market, but when i think of what i would like to paint, it is always a variety of Adeptus Astartes...
even after 30 years, there are still so many iconic pieces of 40k background that i want to bring to life in miniature, but haven't had the time for...
i think i could happily go through the rest of my life painting, and still not paint every version of an Adeptus Astartes that i "fantasy paint" in my head...
the lore is that deep, and inspires me that much...
some may see it differently, and that's cool, but for me it is not about fanatical devotion to one company, or product line, but about what inspires me the most to create, and that is the 40K universe...

cheers
jah

Deadnight wrote:
Agreed.

Just being fair here, but being a 'doomsayers of gw' and 'curbing enthusiasm for the hobby' are not necessarily the same thing. With respect, gw isn't 'the hobby' either,many those 'doomsayers' (apparently I am one now because I disagreed with vyxen?) are also fully capable of enjoying, and being enthusiastic about other aspects than just competitive gaming.

I applaud enthusiasm. I also applaud honest discourse and objective attitudes. You can have both.,..

And I'm exalting and agreeing with this. I am one of the 'doomsayers', so to speak. People can enjoy GW products, and do so for years, I'm not holding a gun to their heads. But there's a strong possibility that somewhere down the line, GW will do something - or a bunch of small things - that'll sour the experience for them ('I've got loadsamoney' and 'other things are expensive' only work up to a point) and it seems to be happening at a faster rate that is actually impacting on their bottom line. GW might not go anywhere soon, but it's going somewhere eventually - like a blindfolded speed freak on a motorcycle, kicking cheering spectators in the groin as it zooms past, and there's a clifftop in sight.

So yeah, enjoy GW products. But cast a sideways glance at something outside the secure compound once in a while. It might just keep you in this great hobby, if the novelty fades. It might even expand your hobby and your enjoyment of it in the meantime.

@vermis - a lot of people in the anti-GW crowd make the assumption that GW fans don't try out other stuff. They can't understand how someone could 'glance sideways' and not see that there is so much better out there for so much cheaper.

But the thing is, there are a lot of people like me who DO glance sideways, every trip to the hobby shop, and very frequentl buy some non-GW product. Like jah, I just happen to genuinely prefer GW's models. I don't ask anyone to agree with me, but it does boggle my mind that some people don't seem to understand that GW has fans who prefer their products after swimming in various pools, because they actually think GW makes a better product, and most of the other stuff they want at the ho by shop really isn't any cheaper, at least not in a macro sense (what I'd spend in a month or year).

I don't have loads of money or money to burn, but the cost of $50 boxes of models is not ever going to be what makes or breaks me. It won't ever equate to mortgage or food or auto or home maintenance or presents for my wife or taking care of my mom. I mean, it isn't in the same order if magnitude. That doesn't mean that I'll always buy models, because I might just get into something else for a while, say photography or a sport, and spend less time in hobby.

My point: It is out of choice, not ignorance, that I give Games Workshop my money.

 Talys wrote:
@vermis - a lot of people in the anti-GW crowd make the assumption that GW fans don't try out other stuff. They can't understand how someone could 'glance sideways' and not see that there is so much better out there for so much cheaper.

But the thing is, there are a lot of people like me who DO glance sideways, every trip to the hobby shop, and very frequentl buy some non-GW product. Like jah, I just happen to genuinely prefer GW's models. I don't ask anyone to agree with me, but it does boggle my mind that some people don't seem to understand that GW has fans who prefer their products after swimming in various pools, because they actually think GW makes a better product, and most of the other stuff they want at the ho by shop really isn't any cheaper, at least not in a macro sense (what I'd spend in a month or year).

...

My point: It is out of choice, not ignorance, that I give Games Workshop my money.

Well said, actually. I picked up Warmahordes, X-Wing, Armada, and Netrunner at some point in time, as well as Conquest recently. I'm in the process of selling off all but my Conquest stuff, because none of them, frankly, kept my interest as long as 40k did.

 Talys wrote:
@vermis - a lot of people in the anti-GW crowd make the assumption that GW fans don't try out other stuff. They can't understand how someone could 'glance sideways' and not see that there is so much better out there for so much cheaper.

While I can't speak for everyone I think its safe to say this attitude comes not from people feeling intellectually superior or anything negative like that, but from GWs attitude about how they are the hobby and the WHOLE hobby. It seems, at least to some of us, that rather than try to compete with the competition GW simply wants new hobbyists to never realize those other games exist.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@vermis - a lot of people in the anti-GW crowd make the assumption that GW fans don't try out other stuff. They can't understand how someone could 'glance sideways' and not see that there is so much better out there for so much cheaper.

While I can't speak for everyone I think its safe to say this attitude comes not from people feeling intellectually superior or anything negative like that, but from GWs attitude about how they are the hobby and the WHOLE hobby. It seems, at least to some of us, that rather than try to compete with the competition GW simply wants new hobbyists to never realize those other games exist.

Well sure. Ford and Chevy would both like you to think nobody else makes a pickup truck and Apple wants you to think they have the only app store (tm) and Microsoft would have you think 100% of businesses use Windows.

But who really believes any of that? . Still, it behooves Apple to TRY to lock you into their ecosystem, no different than Google or Microsoft. It's their job to promote their stuff, not anyone else's, and it's also their job to throw up as many walls for any competitor that they can.

Perhaps, but if I walk into a Ford dealership or an Apple store and ask what makes their product better than Chevy/Samsung I won't feel uncomfortable and get the impression the salesman I am speaking to wants me to leave because those names are forbidden in his store.

Sadly I have had that experience in a GW store.

 keezus wrote:
GW's aggressive pricing structure restricts potential buys from this demographic. Maybe it's all part of a plan - I'm not a business person, but IMHO, having a wider customer base can't be a bad thing.

I totally agree with you, and I think they lose business because of it. My entire army was bought from eBay in pieces. I have sold stuff on eBay. I am talking about $500 worth of stuff changing hands since the beginning of the year. I (and likely others) would much rather buy from GW and get brand new kits, but at around 25%-50% off it is tough to walk by. If I shop on eBay, GW only gets the money once. I can't be the only one who collects this way, and it adds up against GW.

Good point at the end though - no business expertise here either. Maybe they are doing even better at their current price point.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Perhaps, but if I walk into a Ford dealership or an Apple store and ask what makes their product better than Chevy/Samsung I won't feel uncomfortable and get the impression the salesman I am speaking to wants me to leave because those names are forbidden in his store.

Sadly I have had that experience in a GW store.

I've had both terrible and fantastic experiences at GW stores, including hearing an intelligent comparison with WMH and explanation of why (in the mind of the GW employee) GW models were superior. While I didn't agree with everything the person said (most notably, I don't think plastic is ALWAYS superior to resin), he knew what he was talking about and didn't make stuff up.

 Talys wrote:
he knew what he was talking about and didn't make stuff up.

Truely something to be envious of given the last couple of redshirts I've had at my nearest store. I tend to get one or the other.

I might be getting my wires crossed, but The Hobbit is most certainly a non-starter since the kickoff "limited edition" box is still for sale YEARS late on the GW site. Right here.

 TheKbob wrote:
I might be getting my wires crossed, but The Hobbit is most certainly a non-starter since the kickoff "limited edition" box is still for sale YEARS late on the GW site. Right here.

hahaha

For what it's worth, that set is actually a pretty good value for models. Never bought it though, because I despised the Hobbit movie. Wife enjoyed it, but it was so far removed from the original book that it was all I could do to sit through the "battle of five armies". And Radagast. Why is he even IN the movie!!! (the model is kinda cool and all, though).

I bought one just for the Hobbits and scenery. I haven't even opened it yet. Got it at 40% off though because it'd been on the shelf for over a year

The LE set sold out in some places though, possible just Australia.

One the "old-timers" leaving GW the only way it hurt GW internally is in the rules department (IMHO).

Externally they started/ or worked with other companies that cut in the same pie.

GW keeps ignoring the way the market is changing, the way internet and kickstarter has become intertwined.

 Korinov wrote:
I have a special issue with the "this is an expensive hobby after all" argument, and how often it's employed to justify insane pricing policies.

What hobby? Wargaming/miniature painting/modelling hobby? Or The GW Hobby(TM)? If the answer is the second one, then all fine, The GW Hobby(TM) is certainly very expensive.

The wargaming hobby (understood as a whole) may be or may not be expensive depending on the rulesets you're playing and what and how many models you're buying.

I mean, if you are playing a skirmish or small battle game - whose rules are available for free in pdf - and your models of choice are among the less expensive in the market (either historicals or fantasy/sci-fi ranges with the more sensitive prices) then I wouldn't really define it as an expensive hobby. Because you will neither need a ton of models to play neither pay a lot of money for the ones you adquire.

If you, however, are playing 2000 points 40k games and sticking to official models, paints and tools... oh dear, then it's going to be an expensive hobby.

Finally, I think it makes little sense to compare the costs of wargaming with different hobbies. Just compare the prices of certain model ranges (and paints, and tools) with others. You may notice an extreme disparity. As a customer, it's a matter of choice.

I'm not keen on the expensive hobby phrase at all either, there are many more (popular) hobbies that are much more expensive and there are many that are much cheaper.

I agree that the only thing that matters is if GW is more expensive than its direct competitors and if it is much more expensive than it needs to be, this is the only comparison that is relevant for me. The actual price of the item is irrelevant as what is expensive to one person could be disposable money to somebody else, i.e., just because I can't afford x doesn't mean x is expensive, it just means x is too expensive for me. Its that personal qualifier that is needed around the discussion on price, that or keep it limited to directly comparable products.

It does make sense to compare the cost of wargaming with alternative forms of entertainment targeted at the same demographic though.

I mean, it isn't meaningful necessarily in what you'd spend on a PC versus what you'd spend on tools and models, but it does matter, because people choose what to do with their money when it's a constraint. So, if I have $1,000, do I buy a new PC, a new video card, an XB1 with a accessories and a bunch of titles, or a new 40k army (for instance).

Ironically, the new video card will be useful for a much shorter period of time than a 40k army

It's also interesting, at least to me in an academic sense, to compare cost per hour of entertainment.

Looky Likey makes a great point though, that "expensive" is such a relative term, because "expensive to me" may mean something totally different from person to person.

 Talys wrote:
It does make sense to compare the cost of wargaming with alternative forms of entertainment targeted at the same demographic though.

Why not compare one hobby based around small plastic models with other hobbies based around small plastic models? Or even wargaming with wargaming?

You'll always find stuff that's cheaper and more expensive than GW games. Some of them are even relevant.

Talys wrote:@vermis - a lot of people in the anti-GW crowd make the assumption that GW fans don't try out other stuff. They can't understand how someone could 'glance sideways' and not see that there is so much better out there for so much cheaper.

Oh but I do understand - I used to be just the same. I daresay most of us here who moved on from GW were the same, to some extent, until we weren't. Nice convenient GW store to congregate in and bask in the wonder of 40K and FB. Space marines and genestealers and orcs and skaven - brilliant. Everything you could ever want for gaming. Sure there were other minis that were kinda sorta interesting, and there was a shop nearby where you could buy different colours of paint for your space marines. There was even a wee FLGS that opened nearby. But the pull was was never too strong to spend most of your gaming time and money anywhere else. Other games didn't have Space Marines or were historicals - boh-ring. Going to that FLGS or a club or even someone's house was ridiculous - unthinkable - because all your gaming buddies (or pickup gaming acquaintances) were right there in GW, along with the only two games that really mattered.
Until they weren't.
GW releases the SGs for one last hurrah. Look at this cockamamie Epic stuff with teeny-tiny versions of the minis we all love! Might as well give it a try - the SM company box is cheap enough. (In fact, why does it seem to be better value than...?) These rules are weird - there aren't even any distinguishable sergeants, let alone a couple of dozen bits of wargear to give them! But hey, this plays pretty well. (In fact, why does it play better than...? And why exactly do we need to sweat and mathammer over which arbitrary choices and wargear to permanently affix to our minis...?) This BFG thing plays pretty well too. Let's take a look at the others to see what we've been missing.
Then it was like the dinosaurs: environmental conditions had already started to kill off enthusiasm when the meteor hit. Those new, interesting SGs were suddenly banned from the shop. At the same time us 'vets' were unceremoniously thrown out on our ear. GW and it's worlds, still beloved even though the cracks had started to show, suddenly made it clear that they didn't wub us anymore. They never did.
Overnight the situation almost completely switched. Indy shops and clubs and especially kitchen tables became much more viable gaming venues than the GW store. It was a choice between organising and gaming at those places, or nowhere; and it took some time and adjustment but we voted 'gaming'. The sting of abandonment was also temporarily added to that increasing dissatisfaction with the rules and prices, so that when we met at those places we were much more receptive of other games. (alongside those SGs that were also kicked out) And y'know what - hand on heart, no sour grapes - most of them are pretty good. Better even. These minis are great too, viewed outside the suffocating GW blanket. Even these historical thingies aren't bad - brightly coloured wheeling blocks and derring-do and everything. Hey, at least it's better-written...

So yeah, I know what it's like to be fixated on GW. I also know what it's like for aaall those people who've been alienated by GW, with a whimper or a bang. Maybe the novelty will fade for you, Talys, though given your astonishingly, wilfuly blinkered and unceasing handwaving of anything GW might be doing wrong, I somehow doubt it. But you are part of a shrinking demographic, and I don't think you're gonna be able to hold GW's hand and lead it all the way through the gauntlet it's facing.
For those alienated gamers, present and future, maybe some might think I'm being melodramatic and I should just worry about my own personal hobby, but I feel some kind of concern and sympathy for them. Many, or most, will move on and find other games by themselves. Others will just feel like giving up altogether, and that's a big loss for them and for the hobby. (For us, not The Hobby(TM)) I don't know how effective my one voice is, bleating in the din of one tiny corner of the internet, and I know it's not as effective as others here, but in some small way I want to encourage both groups that it's not a howling wasteland outside of the GW compound. It's full of variety and possibility, and a lot of fun, and it just needs a couple of extra steps to get to. I know. I was there.

And you'll save a crapload of money too.

Looky Likey wrote:The actual price of the item is irrelevant as what is expensive to one person could be disposable money to somebody else, i.e., just because I can't afford x doesn't mean x is expensive, it just means x is too expensive for me. Its that personal qualifier that is needed around the discussion on price, that or keep it limited to directly comparable products.

Alternatively, just because I can afford x doesn't mean x isn't expensive, it just means I have some money.

@vermis - well, I'm happy for you that you have found something that's a great fit for you. I hope you can be happy for the folks that have different tastes and priorities as you, and like GW stuff.

 keezus wrote:
Maybe it's all part of a plan - I'm not a business person, but IMHO, having a wider customer base can't be a bad thing.

It can be, if you're targeting a very specific demographic, aka a niche, which is what GW has stated that they're doing in their business plan - which is the reason they don't need to conduct market research (yeah, I'm referring to that one statement that sent everyone up in arms with pitchforks). That's why we have multi-million dollar supercars (Lambo Venino Roadster for $4.5mil), phones that cost more than some people will ever make in a month (Porsche Design Blackberry P'9982 for $2500), classes higher than first class on commercial airliners that are basically small apartments (UAE Etihad Airlines apartment cabins), etc.

In all these cases, exclusivity caused by extreme high prices is the draw for many of their customers. Lowering the cost and opening it up to the masses isn't what they're aiming to do. It's the same reason Limited Edition stuff exists.

Does that really apply to $30 plastic soldiers?

I mean, Hypercars sell because they are a status symbol for those with far too much money. But do you find many people in Monaco or Dubai playing with Space Marines with their special edition Lambo outside the store?

I could see it if was like Kingdom death, with their $30 limited run mini's, but with mass produced plastic?

Herzlos wrote:
Does that really apply to $30 plastic soldiers?

I mean, Hypercars sell because they are a status symbol for those with far too much money. But do you find many people in Monaco or Dubai playing with Space Marines with their special edition Lambo outside the store?

I could see it if was like Kingdom death, with their $30 limited run mini's, but with mass produced plastic?

I'm using it as an example that there are "upper tier" niches in every market. Cars, phones, whatever it may be. GW has stated that they're targeting the wargaming niche market, which means that it makes a little more sense that they don't care about lowering their prices to get more users or not doing market research (see the other thread for my explanation for why this is logical from a business standpoint). Also note that I said "a little more sense", not "makes complete sense".

Vermis wrote:

Alternatively, just because I can afford x doesn't mean x isn't expensive, it just means I have some money.

How expensive something is, is solely relative to its peer products and its customer base's disposable cash. If you are contrasting a clearly marked up product against cheaper competitors then yes, it is expensive, however if I have x thousands to spend on models each week do I care if the model cost me £10 more than somebody else? Certainly nowhere near what somebody who has £30 or £100 to spend.

Herzlos wrote:Does that really apply to $30 plastic soldiers?

I mean, Hypercars sell because they are a status symbol for those with far too much money. But do you find many people in Monaco or Dubai playing with Space Marines with their special edition Lambo outside the store?

I could see it if was like Kingdom death, with their $30 limited run mini's, but with mass produced plastic?

You are assuming everybody who buys a hypercar has as much value as you would. When you are a billionare spending ~£1million on one car is nothing, it is like me buying a £1000 clunker, yes I don't want to throw away the £1000 but I'm certainly not as bothered about the car as I would be if I had spent £100k on the car. Worth having a read: http://www.smash.com/supercar-sadness-26-abandoned-forgotten-high-performance-cars-left-dubai/

To put it another way, I have a reasonable hobby budget but it is less than 4% of my net income, I'm actually short on time to build and paint than I am for models that I can buy, even with having about half my models commission painted. I don't even see that as that unusual in the hobby, I've seen many big piles of unpainted lead that even people of self confessed modest means have accrued.

You don't need that big of an income for a £30 box of marines to be such a small percentage of your income, its a personal decision if that feels expensive or not when you get to that point, much like the idiots who leave their hypercars to rot.

@Enignwolf: I think the problem is that their stated target of the "enthusiast" and "premium" market is not borne out by their actions. Ignoring price entirely:

1. The ultimate enthusiast events - Gamesdays have been slashed and shrunk down to a poorly attended GW-only marketplace.

1a. There used to be insane hobby displays built by the GW outlets and there used to be dedicated events teams! These really got the creative juices flowing, but sadly, these are a thing of the past. Now we are stuck with the sad-sad current incarnation of White Dwarf.

2. The quality exhibited by 'Eavy Metal is much diminished from its hey-day. This is BY DESIGN to control costs since by in large, the overall skill of painters is much improved today.

2b. The "Showcase" magazine is chock full of glossy photos of these "mid to mid-high" paint job models built in their STOCK configuration. There's conversion stuff in there - while the photos are much better, the content itself is a far cry to the articles of old.

2c. The paint and modelling work in their one man stores has suffered accordingly. Granted, the appearance of the display armies is going to vary with the ability of the staffers, but in general, I've found the overall paint quality has greatly decreased due to a need for speed painting large quantities of models with extremely limited man-hours.

3. IMHO, the model design team feels rudderless and within some armies, there is highly variable degree of appearance in the releases. For every "Plastic Sternguard", you have a "Space Marine Centurions", or "Flying VW Beetle". This has more of a "get it out the door" than carefully targeting the "premium" market. I realize this is mostly about aesthetics, but the Centurions in general are a significant departure from the feel of the army. -edit- To go more recent: IMHO, the coolest damn thing to come out of the Ad Mech stuff is the Ironstrider kit. This thing encapsulates the gothic ridiculousness of John Balanche's old art. The new Ad Mech robots? IMHO these look like dollar store robots run through a photo shop edge enhance filter and given a passable paintjob.

3a. With the departure from metals, GW is now replacing all their character models in plastic. All the MK1 plastic characters were multipart with tons of options to cater to the "modeling crowd". Now they are all single pose with no options. If they wanted their cake and eat it too, they should have gone with Option 3. The Empire Battle Wizards were single-pose but had lots of options. IMHO, they were the best of two worlds. Cool pose by design, options for the hobbyist.

3aa. I realize you can mitigate this by converting - but one of the most oft stated advantages of the GW system is converting (i.e. glue together parts provided with no fuss) made easy.

Anyhow... I find it hard to believe GW's stated strategy when so little of their actions seem to support this strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
For what it's worth, that set is actually a pretty good value for models. Never bought it though, because I despised the Hobbit movie. Wife enjoyed it, but it was so far removed from the original book that it was all I could do to sit through the "battle of five armies". And Radagast. Why is he even IN the movie!!! (the model is kinda cool and all, though).

Don't forget you get the extra valuable Goblin Town terrain. The most premium $70 pre-built popsicle stick kitbash. Like anything else, it's only good value if you are looking for models of that particular variety. You can pretty up the packaging as much as you want, but fact of the matter is that its not really the kit that hobbyists have been clamoring for.