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Hi folks,

I'm looking to commission a painter for our line of 11 figs. We're looking for showcase/exhibition quality to display on our website as Darksword does.

We're paying $12++ per fig, based on experience and quality. This is what I've already been quoted by 3 painting companies, so that's what I guess is about right.
We're human, contact us and we'll figure it out together. Links to your gallery images are naturally required.

Here's the figs!

http://www.gatekeepergaming.com/products-page/pewter-miniatures/





Email is best: KeeperoftheGateGames at Gmail dot com

Thanks everyone! Hope to mail them to you this week.

John Wrot!

Bwhahahahahahahaha. You are trolling, yes?

Guys, seriously. I charge £15+ ($30) per 28mm on foot for high end tabletop rank and file work.

My showcase stuff starts at £100+ ($200) and goes north quickly.

My prices are middling for the quality I provide.

To the figs:

These are obviously casts of a pretty piss-poor 3d print. You will not get these painted to showcase standard.

You absolutely need to get these reprinted at a much, much higher quality, and then have someone go over them by hand to smooth things off as needed before going to cast.

Sorry, you're just not going to get anyone remotely professional even looking at you with a pitch like this.

Well, you don't have to be a douche about it. I asked 5 different online companies to quote me on these. They all quoted from $10 to $20 for showcase/exhibition quality; with 3 of the 5 offering $12 for Exhibition level.
I prefer to use indie artists, so I came here before accepting their quotes.

Don't be a jerk to fresh-faced new users. We're trying our best to a part of, and to support the community.

John Wrot!

 KeeperoftheGate wrote:
They all quoted from $10 to $20 for showcase/exhibition quality; with 3 of the 5 offering $12 for Exhibition level.
I prefer to use indie artists, so I came here before accepting their quotes.

Anyone willing to paint an 'Exhibition level' miniature for $12 (or $20) isn't going to give you and showcase-quality product.

That's just the cold hard truth.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Anyone willing to paint an 'Exhibition level' miniature for $12 (or $20) isn't going to give you and showcase-quality product.
That's just the cold hard truth.

What price range do you think I'll find. From Indie artists anyway. Winterdyne is obviously not an indie artist, not with those rates (and he's very talented to be sure).
But what is a fair ballpark for each level of quality?

John

I'm not being a douche; it is absolutely not constructive to sugar coat things at a professional level. You need truth. Now, not when you think you can take it.

The models you're showing there have extremely rough surfaces - these are not suitable for production casting. They are also not well suited for painting to high standard.

It looks very much like a cheap shapeways print result, from a design that hasn't been thought through for printing (pay attention to the horizontal 'layer' resolution of the print mechanism).

In terms of painting; a showcase level mini is a very wide field. I've taken you to mean 'very nice box art'. Nothing to clever or arty, but a nice sharp finish, and everything done neatly and smoothly. That means between 8 and 15 hours work per model. Expect to pay at least minimum wage for that.

I recently posted a semi-ranting 'commission expectations' thread, you really should go read it (it'll be in my topics history), especially if you're looking for a decent standard of paintwork.

These models really need fixing first though.

Edit: I'm actually very indie; I do work for all sorts of people in all sorts of places.

Edit2: Re-reading my first response, the first line of it does seem a little douchey, but only if you are seriously that naive. In which case you really need to do a whole lot of research and quality checking before you start throwing money on these. I genuinely took your post as a joke / troll as far as the prices you were pitching.

I have to agree with winterwind.
In My oppinion what ive Seen so far from winter, postwise as picturewise makes me believe that he is a very experienced Commission painter.
For 12 bucks you wont get good quality, Even an indie artist... Will not deliever good quality as wanted by you.
Also this Had nothing to Do with Winter being a douche, he was just honest and to be honest myself... He is a Commission painter and earns his monthly wäge by painting.. In i Had People in Front of me wanting good work for nearly nothing... I Would be harsh too.
I did only a few commissions myself, 2 of them for banday.. Gundam Models.
One of em being 3400 Dollars ( gundam sized).
Showcase was requested...

 KeeperoftheGate wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Anyone willing to paint an 'Exhibition level' miniature for $12 (or $20) isn't going to give you and showcase-quality product.
That's just the cold hard truth.

What price range do you think I'll find. From Indie artists anyway. Winterdyne is obviously not an indie artist, not with those rates (and he's very talented to be sure).
But what is a fair ballpark for each level of quality?

John

yeah, sorry, but whoever you talked to about those $12-20 quotes are obviously not experienced professional painters, but probably someone trying to get their foot in the door of painting a studio's models...
i don't understand how you define an "indie painter"...
Winterdyne, and myself, are both freelance studio painters, Golden Demon winners, and self-employed...
the self-employed bit is the important part, to me...
i think that would make us both "indie artists"...

understand that the generally accepted hourly rate for painters of our quality, pedigree, and experience is $10 an hour...
painting a mini to Darksword's display quality can easily take 20 hours of work...
funny enough, my rate for a high-quality 28mm man-sized mini also starts at $200...
even if i was feeling generous, and giving a discount for painting all 11 of your minis, i would charge $100 each...
anyone giving you Darksword quality for $12 is either selling themselves really really short, or is completely delusional about the quality of their work...

that said, welcome to Dakka, and good luck...
keep in mind, Rule #1 is be nice...
calling someone a douche for giving you honest advice is way out of line...
there are much nicer ways to get your point across, even if you feel that his reply was overly harsh...

cheers
jah

 winterwind85 wrote:
I have to agree with winterwind

You have to agree with yourself?

Winterdyne. I think your post without the first line was suitably stern and truthful. With it... It was douchy.

While I do think the initial reply was a bit harsh (really only the first line due to the tone it sets within the post, but I also think he honestly thought you were trolling), I agree with it. For $12 a mini I'm expecting a marine that is primed with spray, basecoated a single color with a spray, and MAY have a couple details picked out. If they had to assemble the mini and remove mold lines...No details picked out.

I am not a commission painter (and will never seek to be one, I paint too slowly). However, the models do seem grainy. Smoothing them out and redoing a mold isn't a bad plan, I can't visualize as a consumer how well painting would go and how much detail would be obscured by pooling around the graininess. Once that graininess is gone...I think those are some cool minis.

 KeeperoftheGate wrote:
Indie artists

not an indie artist, not with those rates.

I'm not quite sure why you're conflating "indie" with "cheap" as those too terms are not mutually exclusive.

Like Jah said, showcase-quality work on a 28mm miniature is going to take a painter upwards of 20 hours to complete. Obviously everyone sets their own rates, but as a part time and moderately skilled painter myself, I charge about $10 an hour (which is what I pay my babysitter, who does nothing but sit on the couch) so a 20 hour job is going to hit the $200 mark pretty fast. Someone like Witerdyne and Jah could get away with charging much more.

Well, call me crazy, but I consider an "exhibition quality" paintjob a paintjob that you'd be proud to showcase your miniatures at an exhibition at -- since it seems that you're producing these.

Just think of how thin you need to spread that $11 budget, and how much you want to pay your painter per hour to have something you'd be proud to display as representative work.

I assure you that this Darksword model is not possible in a few hours


Source & Credit: http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/shop/index.php/featured/overwatch-female-mage-with-staff.html

Then again, you might be going more for this scary thing, a "display" model at Reaper's website, which I think is about the best you should expect for $11 (and even then, you might be pushing it):


Source & Credit: http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones/latest/77088#detail/IG_3467_1

Thank you to everyone who shared their thoughts and chimed in here.

As I spoke to another painting company in email earlier: I'm a learner. When I enter a new field I only know what I know before entering it; so I'll take what I learn from others I meet, pick a weed to examine it's stalk, I'll stop and smell the flowers, and take note of the weather.

What I learnt from others: $12 is normal. Apparently they were wrong (or selling themselves short, though I'm curious enough to hire 2 artists at this point to compare).
Pick a weed: Get insulted both personally and have my minis insulted to by the first "professional" i meet on DakkaDakka. Ouch. It's a thorny weed.
Smell the flowers: Meet the rest of you kind folk that have explained more detail and even welcomed me. Oh. It's a pleasant place.
Take note of the weather: It changes around here rapidly from one post to the next. ; )

Anyway, so thanks for helping me learn. I really mean it. - Details are going to end up on my Kickstarter Advice Blog http://www.gatekeepergaming.com/kickstarter-advice-columns, because I like to teach what I learn the hard way, so others can learn the easy way. : )

So again, thank you. - I'd ask if anyone is interested in the $20-40 range, but it seems everyone here is in the $200 range, and that's awesome for you... but just not going to happen from this small business. We're awesome, but I'll have to sell at least 45 full sets of the miniatures to just break even on that paint job... and... well... no. : P Not at this time anyway.

Thank you again, and again.

John Wrot!

I think its a tad insulting of the OP to ask painters who take their craft very seriously and have often invested years building their skills to a professional standard to complete so many hours of work per miniature for so little money.
When you consider that the Australian minimum wage is running at approximately US$12 per hour right now, asking someone to spend up to twenty hours earning it virtually amounts to slave labor.

Naivety might possibly be the cause of such poor judgement, or it might also be the cover for a calculated attempt to take advantage of a struggling artist. I've heard stories of such doings being common in the art world where unscrupulous dealers and collectors will happily rip off artists who don't know the going rate.

Running a small business isn't much of an excuse as artists have bills to pay themselves.

I think winterdyne is a bit touchy on the subject of what people expect from commission painters and his first post was a bit douchy... but also truthful.

You have to think someone to paint even a very basic level (below what I'd expect to see on a box) would take them a couple of hours, so right there you're looking at $20-30 per model. And that's for something that might look good at a distance but probably won't photograph and enlarge terribly well.

For something that looks good in a high quality picture takes a lot more time and patience. When the likes of winterdyne and jah-joshua say they want $200 to paint a model, it's not because they're insane or over estimating their value, it's because they know it's going to take them 15-20 hours or more to get everything spot on so you can take a photo and zoom in and have it still look good.

I actually quite like the look of your models. As winterdyne mentioned the surface texture is off, but over all I like them so hopefully you get it all sorted and can start selling them soon.

If this is for box art or a single shot on a webstore you may be able to get a cheaper rate. Ask for the model to be painted from one angle, GW used to do this for some of their promo shots back in the day so it's not an uncommon practice.
If however you want to use them for battle reports, action shots or multiple angles then you'll have to pay a little more I'm afraid.

 KeeperoftheGate wrote:


Anyway, so thanks for helping me learn. I really mean it. - Details are going to end up on my Kickstarter Advice Blog http://www.gatekeepergaming.com/kickstarter-advice-columns, because I like to teach what I learn the hard way, so others can learn the easy way. : )

Interesting read, that advice blog. I see that Winterdyne nailed it when he called our your models as being Shapeways.

Also, there was this:

Here are things that you can offer artists that may help them agree to your lower than ideal rates:
Getting published. If they’re a new artist to the scene, they may be frothing at the mouth to get published. This is good for you. Fair warning though: most are not.
Exposure. If you flaunt their work, and advertise for them, you’ll bring them business. Offer it, but live up to it. Get a commitment from them in writing to finish your project before ditching you for a better rate elsewhere. This way you don’t need to fear that happening before the project is complete. (Such things are hard to enforce though, especially internationally. But it’s a contract of Honor if nothing else.)
The opportunity to be part of something great. This was something we offered, because frankly, we really really believe in our project with a lot of enthusiasm, and we found a number of artists that did the same. I praise God for them.
Bulk. Some artists may be iffy to work only 3 pieces for $35 each, but on the promise of 10 or 20 or 30, they might appreciate the promise of staying busy if they’re in a slow season.
Beyond that… time is money.

Please don't do this. Just don't. Artists HATE this and it makes you seem like a jerk. State up front what you're willing to pay and leave it at that. Don't tell artists that they'll be "getting published" or that they'll "get exposure and that's why you'll be paying them less than they should be getting.

After reading these comments and thinking about it. I wonder if the people who quoted you meant 12 as in $1200 per mini, or 12 as in $12000 for the batch, or 12 as in 12$ an hour wage.

I don't think you're lying when you say you asked and got a quote, but I think there was a misunderstanding on one end.

The models look good except for the lines from the 3d print. Where did you print them? For production like that, most people have to hire it done because the fine detail printers needed are way too expensive for even larger companies of they are not used all day.

Another question: why metal? Just curious as I'm into resin casting. I know the main advantage is not wasting material and some people prefer metal, but those are very niche.

Metal casting is actually reasonably efficient, cost wise. Yes, the material costs more, but the time to get casts done is low, and the success rate is high, and the life of a decent mould wheel can go up to several hundred spins. The finished pieces tend to be robust, and detail retension is fine, even with relatively inexperienced casters working, so long as the moulds are vented correctly.

3d printing is a mixed bag; I've worked on many 3d printed models now; ultra detail frosted is the best shapeways do, and even that isn't suitable for producution casting without significant polishing work. There are a few people I know that can produce 3d prints suitable for mastering, but the machines are phenomenally expensive, and as such so is the production of the prototype.

One method that's workable is a hard wax cast off the print, which is then polished (by hand, tediously and expensively) and used for producing a silver (yes, silver) master model. You can get to the silver stage more efficiently if you use the best 3d printing you can find; irrelevant of where in the world it is. Spending appropriately on the prototype can save hundreds of dollars per design in cleanup / preparation.

It is common to need the 3d print to be assembled to produce a production master - the printing process means you need to work with the horizontal resolution in mind at all times - you get a better result if you keep the detail facing the horizontal resolution where possible; less stepping to clean means a faster, cheaper cleanup process. Often the part breakdown for printing is similar to the optimum layout for moulding; so that's also something to bear in mind. You need to talk to an experience mouldmaker to determine what will work best.

Drop casts of that can then be used to produce metal production masters which can then be used for creating production mould wheels.

All this stuff can be learned in a day or so of research - in combination with the reluctance of the OP to pay reasonably for the work that needs to be done, this leads me to think this is a poorly planned endeavour at this stage. Shame, as the actual model designs / sculpts look to be quite nice.

TL;DR - this project needs some further work in R&D - not ready for production yet at all.

I suppose if I offer to take the job, I'll get torn apart?
Seriously though, I would do it for the 20-40$ range. I also admit that I am not the best, if you say no I get it.
I just know I can win local competitions.
Thanks y'all for your consideration.
Gallery:http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?u=85183

 AUGmaniac wrote:
I suppose if I offer to take the job, I'll get torn apart?
Seriously though, I would do it for the 20-40$ range. I also admit that I am not the best, if you say no I get it.
I just know I can win local competitions.
Thanks y'all for your consideration.
Gallery:http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?u=85183

I won't tear you apart for offering... but I assume the OP was looking for higher quality than what you have in your gallery.

Winterdyne said $30+ for a tabletop rank and file and if I recall from his other posts, but winter's "table top rank and file" is still what most people would consider reasonably high end (from what I remember from other threads).

The OP also mentioned Darksword, the guys who make the Game of Thrones models. They have a very high quality of showcase / product display model. I posted a pic above as an example. I mean, most are gorgeous.

But if they are happy with the general quality of work you offer for what you charge, AUGmaniac, all the power to both of ya, and congrats I mean that quite literally and not in a derogatory way at all.

What I do in the advice department is getting indie game publishers off the ground via Kickstarter.
One necessary way to do that for a board game is to cut budget. It it what it is. Nobody's hiring Boris Vallejo for their indie board game art, rather, you get indie artists. WinterDyne and Jah are not indie artists. This is a compliment. It'd be like Morgan Freeman claiming he's an indie film maker because he did voice over for a nature documentary on epix. When you get paid $200 per mini and up, you're not going to be hired by indie companies, and so you're not indie. There's nothing wrong with that. You simply can't be Indie and a Industry Pro at the same time. And it's better to be pro.
Would Jessica Rich be indie if she painted my minis? Come on now. So one is going to need Deviant art, and BGG's artist forums, and you need stuff to offer people beyond money.

For example, we hired Matt Bulahao for The King's Armory - The Tower Defense Board Game due to his flawless terrain skills. We agreed on great rates that worked us, and were agreeable to him. We promised him lots of work and exposure as well. After our project launched, featuring his work, he got a job painting for Legend of the Five Rings by AEG, what he referred to as "a dream job". - I will still offer this, because indie artists, true indie artists, appreciate it. He even recently had to turned us down for more work due to his schedule with AEG (mixing with our deadlines). I could cry, my little artist all grown up and getting famous.

As for Metal vs. Plastic
A) Plastic is cheaper in massive bulk, but the buy-in is much higher; making the entry point hard to obtain easily.
B) Metal is more awesome. <--- I prefer it, so we went metal. - I personally don't enjoy plastic toys, they have no heft in my hand and they forever feel cheap.
WInterDyne gave a great synopsis, nicely done. If you want details, go here: http://www.gatekeepergaming.com/article-6-how-to-get-minis-made

Thanks everyone!
Your compliments on the minis are much appreciated. The texture isn't as severe as it appears in these super pics, and frankly I like it. It gives a real texture to the clothing and bases that brings the minis to life. It's a choice we made, intrepid explorers that we are, and one we stick by. They look much more realistic than the reaper minis I have, and that was our goal: Excellence.

John Wrot!

Matt's work:

http://mattbulahao.daportfolio.com/gallery/920666#8
He's one of the best of the best, and his work with terrain and with light are 2nd to none.

You are confusing indies (independents) with amateur.
Massive, massive difference.

As for the 'texture' on the minis? Come on. No. It's a fuzzy print cast up. Obviously, unavoidably.

You have some nice designs (I actually really do like the chinese noble looking type guy with the staff) - do not balls them up by cutting corners in getting them to production. You gotta spend money to make money, and these frankly will not sell as they are in a marketplace that's getting progressively more crowded.

John your justification for paying artists low rates seems to be that you are offering them exposure and something to add to their resume.
You also go to a great lengths to differentiate between "pro" and "indie" artists as if to suggest that that "indie" artists deserve to be paid less because their work is inferior to that of "pro" artists (nevermind that this is often not the case) yet you are soliciting for showcase-quality work.

It's very hard not to get the impression you are inventing reasons to justify purchasing "pro" quality work at "indie" rates.

This isn't unheard of among entrepreneurs & business people. I'm sure if you asked many third-world sweatshop owners how they feel about it they'd talk about 'opportunity' they are giving their workers and how they're saving them from poverty.
It's a pity I don't know the names of any Chinese miniature painting studios I can recommend to you John.

winterdyne wrote:
As for the 'texture' on the minis? Come on. No. It's a fuzzy print cast up. Obviously, unavoidably.

There are some places like the hair or rough metal where one could make an argument that texture makes the model interesting. But when the same texture is everywhere, the first thought that will enter a potential buyer's mind is likely that is that this is either an error or a miniature not meant to be painted . On things like flesh, fine cloth, or polished armor plate, it not only looks wrong, but it will be hard to paint properly. You can forget using any kind of wash, which is a staple for a big chunk of your market, because the wash will just sink into all the little pits, and what should look like a woman's face or calf will instead look like acne. And unless you spend an excruciating amount of time smoothing out those parts, the final painted model just have a look that most people aren't expecting or desiring.

My thought, anyhow.

Oh, one last thing. Are the bases attached? I'd suggest to have them detached from the bases, if that's the case. I think it's extremely rare for an attached metal base to be a selling feature today; it costs more to base it that way, and it gives the painter one less creative canvas, for a base that is quite straight-forward.

As Winterdyne said, some of the casts are pretty cool.

OP, have you never heard of resin? I read through your advice on how to get minis made and you seem to have totally forgotten its existence (or are not aware of it), I would highly recommend you do some research in to this, as it seems to be the best medium for what you are trying to achieve.

By the way there are thousands of posts all over dakka that explain the process of how to get minis made, the pros and cons of the different materials, how to make masters and moulds, companies to use etc.

The miniatures are not bad other then the pitted texture look. I would pretty hard for any painter to make the miniatures look good. As for trying to sell the miniatures I don't think you stand a chance. The market is not looking for more generic fantasy miniatures from a unknown manufacturer. Unless the miniatures are exceptional and made for displays or are part of a game system they simply don't sell well enough to be worth the effort. I know at least 3 people who tried and failed to get traction in the miniature market with better miniatures then I see here.

I wish you luck.

Steve

Your designs look good, KeeperoftheGate, and I think integrated bases is a good idea for a boardgame. But the prints do not only look grainy, they are clearly layered and will only make your customers dissapointed. Maybe it is a good idea to get in touch with Prodos Games and see what you would have to pay to get 3d-prints from them?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The thing many people realise is that getting high quality work done by extremely skilled painters like winterdyne and jah-joshua is cheap. It may seem like a lot of money, but getting someone that skilled and experienced to work for that much per hour is really cheap.