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 Torga_DW wrote:
Plus you have to consider that a portion of the negative people who might have frequented the forums dislike the game so much that they're not around to vote anymore.

Actually, little known fact, but when you quit 40k, you're automatically registered on a mailing list that informs you of polls and threads asking if you like 40k.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Plus you have to consider that a portion of the negative people who might have frequented the forums dislike the game so much that they're not around to vote anymore.

Actually, little known fact, but when you quit 40k, nope nope nope.

Hush Blacksails, stop revealing why there's so much negativity around 40k, you can't let people know you just hang around because you get mail every time something positive about 40k is said. I mean why else would you hang around 40k forums?

Oh yeah, better vote on the poll, wouldn't want my occasional post in a while to look like I'm just waiting to creepily stalk Blacksails.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Plus you have to consider that a portion of the negative people who might have frequented the forums dislike the game so much that they're not around to vote anymore.

Actually, little known fact, but when you quit 40k, nope nope nope.

Hush Blacksails, stop revealing why there's so much negativity around 40k, you can't let people know you just hang around because you get mail every time something positive about 40k is said. I mean why else would you hang around 40k forums?

You're right. Hopefully I can keep my membership to the mailing list.

First rule of GW hate club. You do not talk about the GW hate club.
The second rule is...

Here is my opinion:
As some may know, I'm a fan of 2nd ed. It's when I was first introduced to wargamming and has a special place for introducing me into the hobby.

As I see it, the rules have been taking me further and further from what I consider to be the original war game. Don't get me wrong, I still love 40k and all other war games out there are simply (in my opinion) copies of the original, so I will continue to play even long after GW has closed it's doors as long as I can find someone to play with as there are now 6 different sets of rules out there that we can choose from to play a game

Basically not.
Have a look at the last two codex releases, SM and DA.
Basically no new models and rules, just a slight adaption of the old.
The new parts are formations which hardly justify a new codex.
The price increases seem to accelarate with time. 33€ for five Assault Marines and 46€ for the printed DA codex.

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to hear from all these people saying these new rules are making them buy less and want to quit.

*Raises hand*

I no longer actively engage in 40K.
Shoddy rules, no semblance of game-balance and high prices made me leave. GW's game-philosophy, the loss of army-identities and the SELL-MOAR-MODELS attitude kept me away.
I went from buying every single new kit (minus Chaos-related ones) and every single codex/rule-book/supplement.........to buying nothing.
I now play X-Wing instead.




PS. I hang around hoping against hope that the game changes back into something I find enjoyable. I still have my armies (see sig), but they're boxed and shelved.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to hear from all these people saying these new rules are making them buy less and want to quit.

*Raises hand*

I no longer actively engage in 40K.
Shoddy rules, no semblance of game-balance and high prices made me leave. GW's game-philosophy, the loss of army-identities and the SELL-MOAR-MODELS attitude kept me away.
I went from buying every single new kit (minus Chaos-related ones) and every single codex/rule-book/supplement.........to buying nothing.
I now play X-Wing instead.




PS. I hang around hoping against hope that the game changes back into something I find enjoyable. I still have my armies (see sig), but they're boxed and shelved.

Why not just find an oldhammer group if you don't like playing "modern" 40k? Seems a shame to shelve that much of a collection.

 Robisagg wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to hear from all these people saying these new rules are making them buy less and want to quit.

*Raises hand*

I no longer actively engage in 40K.
Shoddy rules, no semblance of game-balance and high prices made me leave. GW's game-philosophy, the loss of army-identities and the SELL-MOAR-MODELS attitude kept me away.
I went from buying every single new kit (minus Chaos-related ones) and every single codex/rule-book/supplement.........to buying nothing.
I now play X-Wing instead.




PS. I hang around hoping against hope that the game changes back into something I find enjoyable. I still have my armies (see sig), but they're boxed and shelved.

Why not just find an oldhammer group if you don't like playing "modern" 40k? Seems a shame to shelve that much of a collection.

You know, that might be a good idea. Although I imagine finding an acceptable "zero-point" that a group of people can agree on might be problematic.
Anyway, I think I'll look into that.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I'd like to hear from all these people saying these new rules are making them buy less and want to quit.

*Raises hand*

I no longer actively engage in 40K.
Shoddy rules, no semblance of game-balance and high prices made me leave. GW's game-philosophy, the loss of army-identities and the SELL-MOAR-MODELS attitude kept me away.
I went from buying every single new kit (minus Chaos-related ones) and every single codex/rule-book/supplement.........to buying nothing.
I now play X-Wing instead.




PS. I hang around hoping against hope that the game changes back into something I find enjoyable. I still have my armies (see sig), but they're boxed and shelved.

Why not just find an oldhammer group if you don't like playing "modern" 40k? Seems a shame to shelve that much of a collection.

You know, that might be a good idea. Although I imagine finding an acceptable "zero-point" that a group of people can agree on might be problematic.
Anyway, I think I'll look into that.

I know a few groups on facebook, and I'm sure you could find a few folks locally. 5th ed and prior codexes are dirt cheap on ebay, so getting people into it is cheaper. Definite con (to me at least) is the fact that army lists and what not would be relatively static.

-edit-
Hell, I was talking to a guy on facebook this morning that runs a group that has been playing 2nd Ed since it came out. It can be done lol.

Steelmage99 wrote:

You know, that might be a good idea. Although I imagine finding an acceptable "zero-point" that a group of people can agree on might be problematic.

Ultimately, it's just a case of agreeing on which set of core rules you want to use. From there, pretty much any of the codexes could be adapted to fit, although some will take more work than others to fit certain editions. (anything 2nd ed with later editions, or vice versa, being the most amount of work)

I really dislike the direction 40k has gone in since 5th.

Also, "forge the narrative" seems to mean "we can't be arsed balancing our rules, so we're dumping that problem on you".

To those very few in this very long thread who say that the rules are ok. Here is a link to look at: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

I was in games workshop and a mate was complaining that blood angels got shafted, basically saying marine dreads got more attacks, cheaper termies etc.

So I said "so what, just pay the cost marines do for terminators, and give your dreads 4 attacks"

The gw manager said "yeah and str10 attacks and jetbikes and lascannon"

So I basically said to him, if your company cannot be arsed to do its job properly and it's down to us to fix the nonsense you have Created, and it's clear were not getting an faq, then we don't appreciate you taking the piss when we try and fix your companies mess.

It quite annoyed me, after I thought to myself that this guy is a managing representative of games workshop, is that the attitude they encourage there, as the guy is incompetent to say the least, I've personally seen him sell things to a kid that the kid very clearly didn't Want, I've seen him push his own staff members out of the job by bullying them, and this guy is a manager, this is the grass roots gw guys, I am genuinely surprised by it and if he represents gw management, I can see why they treat their player base with scorn it seems like.

 Formosa wrote:
I was in games workshop and a mate was complaining that blood angels got shafted, basically saying marine dreads got more attacks, cheaper termies etc.

So I said "so what, just pay the cost marines do for terminators, and give your dreads 4 attacks"

The gw manager said "yeah and str10 attacks and jetbikes and lascannon"

So I basically said to him, if your company cannot be arsed to do its job properly and it's down to us to fix the nonsense you have Created, and it's clear were not getting an faq, then we don't appreciate you taking the piss when we try and fix your companies mess.

It quite annoyed me, after I thought to myself that this guy is a managing representative of games workshop, is that the attitude they encourage there, as the guy is incompetent to say the least, I've personally seen him sell things to a kid that the kid very clearly didn't Want, I've seen him push his own staff members out of the job by bullying them, and this guy is a manager, this is the grass roots gw guys, I am genuinely surprised by it and if he represents gw management, I can see why they treat their player base with scorn it seems like.

Did he then reply with "No groaning in my store!"?

I suppose when they say "attitude, not skills" they don't specify what sort of attitude...

 Formosa wrote:
after I thought to myself that this guy is a managing representative of games workshop

It's always a stretch to assume an employee of a large multinational company represents the company as a whole. I don't think there's much connection between a single store GW manager and GW upper management. The manager of my local GW is a great guy, I wouldn't blame any of GW's failings on him nor would I attribute any of his good qualities to GW as a whole

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
after I thought to myself that this guy is a managing representative of games workshop

It's always a stretch to assume an employee of a large multinational company represents the company as a whole. I don't think there's much connection between a single store GW manager and GW upper management. The manager of my local GW is a great guy, I wouldn't blame any of GW's failings on him nor would I attribute any of his good qualities to GW as a whole

But by the same token, every employee is a "representative" of their employer to some extent. Negative behavior by a single staff member can have repercussions for the company as a whole, even when that negative behavior is performed on the employee's own time and/or has nothing to do with the company itself. The simple (in)action of employing people whose behavior harms or pushes away customers can have an impact on the perception of the company's values, which may hurt their bottom line at the end of the year.

If I worked for Apple or Microsoft and spent my after-work hours screaming racial obscenities at people, while still wearing my uniform, you can bet that even if I were nothing but a coffee-boy for their lowest-level office (and thus the least qualified rep for the company ever), I'd still get fired for being a complete dick.

Obviously a somewhat different situation, but my point is that if everyone in a store's area knows a store manager for his bad, anti-customer behavior, that store will probably get less business than the store where the local manager is a great guy. As a company, one (should) strive to have the company's image represented by the latter, not the former.

 Anglacon wrote:
Sadly, I have played this game competitively (and Dark Eldar almost exclusively) for well over 16 years.

I am now selling off all my models. I have a few more tournament obligations to meet, then I am done and will not look back.

It is a combination of being unable to keep up with all the new rules, formations and combos as well as my favorite army being stabbed in the back, kicked into a ditch and laughed at while every codex since has been given the red carpet treatment.

Screw you GW. 1 guy leaving may not mean much in the grand scheme of things, but this 1 mans money will be spent elsewhere, and not with your company.

Not quite every army - Orks were the first 7th edition codex, and right before DE IIRC. Rest assured we got *exactly* the same treatment

 Xca|iber wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
after I thought to myself that this guy is a managing representative of games workshop

It's always a stretch to assume an employee of a large multinational company represents the company as a whole. I don't think there's much connection between a single store GW manager and GW upper management. The manager of my local GW is a great guy, I wouldn't blame any of GW's failings on him nor would I attribute any of his good qualities to GW as a whole

But by the same token, every employee is a "representative" of their employer to some extent. Negative behavior by a single staff member can have repercussions for the company as a whole, even when that negative behavior is performed on the employee's own time and/or has nothing to do with the company itself. The simple (in)action of employing people whose behavior harms or pushes away customers can have an impact on the perception of the company's values, which may hurt their bottom line at the end of the year.

If I worked for Apple or Microsoft and spent my after-work hours screaming racial obscenities at people, while still wearing my uniform, you can bet that even if I were nothing but a coffee-boy for their lowest-level office (and thus the least qualified rep for the company ever), I'd still get fired for being a complete dick.

Obviously a somewhat different situation, but my point is that if everyone in a store's area knows a store manager for his bad, anti-customer behavior, that store will probably get less business than the store where the local manager is a great guy. As a company, one (should) strive to have the company's image represented by the latter, not the former.

Of course, and I'm sure people do get fired if and when their boss or their bosses boss figures out how badly you're representing the company.

Of course staff reflect on the company they are working for, but at the same time I think we have to accept that these days with huge multinational companies there's a huge disconnect between the individual staff we might interact with an the company as a whole or indeed the upper management. I'm sure there's a lot of people who would get fired from a lot of jobs if upper management actually knew how crap they were.

It's not a small independent company in the good old days any more where the person you are interacting with genuinely was personally employed by the manager of the company. When we go in to a Walmart or a McDonald's or a Games Workshop, I think it's time we realise that the person we are interacting with has no say in the company as a whole, upper management has probably never even met the person and if they're being a douche it's likely because no one in a position to fire them has discovered how much of a douche they are.

GW killed 'modern' 40K for me after 22 years of playing week-in-week-out since the age of 8. I used to inhale very codex/book/WD I could get my hands on or scrape the pennies together for.

Now I'm back playing 2nd ed like when I started.

Yes the rules are just as(if not more)broken and our group have developed the "Don't Be A ****" veto rule (which has never been used I might add) but the game had real charm then.

The fluff section(which was at least half of every codex) made me want/need to collect every army I read about (anyone remember the 2nd Ed Tyranid codex that oozed gothic horror?).

The balance is applied to the game by us players as the lists are very 'take what you want' pretty much but when the fluff is so bloody good we have to stick to it!

For me personnelly 40k has just turned into EPIC with bigger models. Its one of the few games that dosen't scale too badly as you rack up the points.

I like the new models, armies and formats, the rules could do with help but its always been the same.

I am so so. I mean, we are seeing a new age of codex, which might as well be a new edition. When a new edition drops, all the codex get revamped one at a time, but some are left behind. Currently the new ones are miles ahead of many of the old ones.

That is frustrating, but the real frustrating part is hearing people complain and rage about it. I have been playing less because of the player base.

 gwarsh41 wrote:


That is frustrating, but the real frustrating part is hearing people complain and rage about it. I have been playing less because of the player base.

A bunch of people on the internet are turning you off from playing something you enjoy?

I don't think the problem is with the people on the internet in this case.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
after I thought to myself that this guy is a managing representative of games workshop

It's always a stretch to assume an employee of a large multinational company represents the company as a whole. I don't think there's much connection between a single store GW manager and GW upper management. The manager of my local GW is a great guy, I wouldn't blame any of GW's failings on him nor would I attribute any of his good qualities to GW as a whole

But by the same token, every employee is a "representative" of their employer to some extent. Negative behavior by a single staff member can have repercussions for the company as a whole, even when that negative behavior is performed on the employee's own time and/or has nothing to do with the company itself. The simple (in)action of employing people whose behavior harms or pushes away customers can have an impact on the perception of the company's values, which may hurt their bottom line at the end of the year.

If I worked for Apple or Microsoft and spent my after-work hours screaming racial obscenities at people, while still wearing my uniform, you can bet that even if I were nothing but a coffee-boy for their lowest-level office (and thus the least qualified rep for the company ever), I'd still get fired for being a complete dick.

Obviously a somewhat different situation, but my point is that if everyone in a store's area knows a store manager for his bad, anti-customer behavior, that store will probably get less business than the store where the local manager is a great guy. As a company, one (should) strive to have the company's image represented by the latter, not the former.

Of course, and I'm sure people do get fired if and when their boss or their bosses boss figures out how badly you're representing the company.

Of course staff reflect on the company they are working for, but at the same time I think we have to accept that these days with huge multinational companies there's a huge disconnect between the individual staff we might interact with an the company as a whole or indeed the upper management. I'm sure there's a lot of people who would get fired from a lot of jobs if upper management actually knew how crap they were.

It's not a small independent company in the good old days any more where the person you are interacting with genuinely was personally employed by the manager of the company. When we go in to a Walmart or a McDonald's or a Games Workshop, I think it's time we realise that the person we are interacting with has no say in the company as a whole, upper management has probably never even met the person and if they're being a douche it's likely because no one in a position to fire them has discovered how much of a douche they are.

If they hired on skill and not "how much they love GW" I could get behind that, a little. Their need to hire on no skill and lots of get-up-and-go instead, put GW in total fault for their staff. Unlike, Walmart or McDonald it is one guy if you can't vet one guy for the store only he woreks at, the company is a fault.

Asuo wrote:
For me personnelly 40k has just turned into EPIC with bigger models. Its one of the few games that dosen't scale too badly as you rack up the points.

Indeed. 40k is just as unbalanced no matter what points you play at.

The only thing I'm unhappy with is I'm kinda poor and the Prices really don't fit in my pocket. The production cost of both SM Tac Squad and Sternguard veterans is the same. They contain the same amount of plastic material as Tac squad (even less btw cause they are 5 minis in the box), the minis are exact the same size but they cost 50 USD and Tac Squad is ~21USD.

I have no Idea why is this. I think Because Sternguard vets are stronger and have more points in game. So the price in in game points increase?

Whatever the case is im gonna struggle cause I love WH40K.

I hear of some really nice mini wargames like Dust, where the starter pack is cheap and minis in the box come with assembled and primed miniatures.

The rules are weak, the game is cumbersome and counter-intuitive, the models are over-priced and the company works very hard at squeezing the customer at every opportunity.

What's not to like?

I actually bought my first models and codex around the holidays last year. It's been quite a ride, especially as Necron decurions and Eldar wraithknights pushed my 6th edition Tau into mid-tier. ^^;

I like the way the game's developed, with the 7th edition rules and "7.5 edition" datasheets and formations. It feels more modular and professional than I'm used to seeing 40k historically.

I think the game would probably be better off without web exclusive formations, though. I also think the codex imbalance is kind of unfair.

@Jewelfox.
What previous editions of 40k are you comparing the current game to.(3rd to 6th?).

I can understand some people seeing a 'progression' of sorts if they selectively view previous editions from a particular stand point.

However, compared to other games 40k has always had over complicated rules .
And as the editions have progressed the level of complication has increased , I believe to try to make up for the ever decreasing level of tactical game complexity.