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So, for the last, I dunno, year or so, I've tried to convince myself that I actually really love the Traitors. I've read some lore, loved some, meh'ed at others, but overall, the lore is beginning to sit with me, and I'm loving a good chunk of it now.

What I can't seem to get is the visual design. I can get behind most of the current lore, I love the Heresy and have found me a favourite legion in the Word Bearers, but the visuals... I just don't get them. And that's why I write - To find out if it's just the visual style that puts me off, or the models are, in fact, bad.

What I talk about is stuff like this, basically:


I want to know if this is a cool design to any of you Chaos-lovin' fools around here. I don't like it one bit. Something about the barely-changed armour, the spikes, the skulls, it just screams "Metal Album Front Cover" to me, and not "Cursed Traitor with the favour of Chutulhu and Friend". It doesn't look like any legion in particular, it doesn't even look like it would be naturally design this way by an actual individual!

As opposed to:


This is, to me, how Chaos Marine design should be. Of course this one is a wee bit overdesigned, since it is a Champion, but it has the organic, flowing armour, the malicious but still believable armour, and looks rightfully daemonic. This, just like the rest of the Chosen from DV, is what I think when I think modern Chaos Space Marines. Changed, but aren't trying so hard to be evil. Chaos did that for them.

So, what do you think? Am I just not a Chaos kind of guy, or is the old designs simply... Well, bad?

The DV models are undeniably better. Of course they are mono pose which limits them for conversion(only slightly). Chaos models always look better when heavily converted.

My chaos are largely a mix of the DV plastics, the old metals and the ancient chaos renegade metals. All of which have the more chaotic look than the current plastics.

I've gone my own way. In the main the CSM models suuuck.

That said, I do like some of the more popularly criticised models (such as the Dinobots) I just think they differ to far In aesthetic from others in the range.

So, to bridge the gap I'm modelling some of the more traditional vehicles with organic components to try and bridge the gap visually. I'm not going mad, but it will hopefully make more visual sense than dragon vs standard Rhino with spikes glued on it.

Also, I'm toning down some of the rather too excessive CHAOS!! that the official kits have for me by blending in some Heresy and Loyalist parts, but that's an easier job for me as I'm doing Emperor's Children so the odd Aquila I can't or don't want to remove is easily justified.

I'm kind of the opposite. I like the traitor legions that didn't get all squishy. I don't like the organic, deamonic look and prefer a more mechanical look.
(Iron Warriors being my favorite of the legions.)

I have never been a fan of the spiky bits everywhere and top knots. Top knots on everything..

The DV models, raptors, plague marines etc all look spot on.

The DV Chaos Marines are how chaos marines should be. The added spike and skull Chaos marines we've had prior to DV, to me those are only good for representing the Renegade marines who went traitor within a short time span. In the fiction we have normal humans who because of their own corruption by chaos deform and merge into their clothing and become monstrous within months... so it doesn't make much sense that a Chaos Marine exposed to the warp would remain so relatively unaffected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm kind of the opposite. I like the traitor legions that didn't get all squishy. I don't like the organic, deamonic look and prefer a more mechanical look.
(Iron Warriors being my favorite of the legions.)

I can appreciate that (iron within! iron without!) but surely you can appreciate that as what makes the Iron Warriors special.


I think one of the problems with GW's approach to Chaos is that our fiction portrays so many different textures to define the aesthetic of different sub-factions and yet what we're expected to use is visually treated like a sub-faction of loyalist marines.

Totally agree with you. A lot of the design is trying way too hard to be evil. Although it's counter to current fluff, I much prefer the grey interpretation of chaos - where they arent inherently evil, more obsessed with their god and what that stands for. Where Khorne is not about mindless slaughter, but about obsessively seeking honourable combat like Dwarfen Slayers in WFB. Where Nurgle is about an obsession with preserving and proliferating life of all kinds, even vermin and bacteria, and so on.

They're heretics not because they are 'evil' but because they can't confirm to the Imperium's view of what is ok, they are equal in fanaticism and immorality to many loyalists, just to an alternate ideal other than the god emperor.

Anyway, I find that all way more interesting than the metal album cover cliche look and fluff.

 aka_mythos wrote:
The DV Chaos Marines are how chaos marines should be. The added spike and skull Chaos marines we've had prior to DV, to me those are only good for representing the Renegade marines who went traitor within a short time span. In the fiction we have normal humans who because of their own corruption by chaos deform and merge into their clothing and become monstrous within months... so it doesn't make much sense that a Chaos Marine exposed to the warp would remain so relatively unaffected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm kind of the opposite. I like the traitor legions that didn't get all squishy. I don't like the organic, deamonic look and prefer a more mechanical look.
(Iron Warriors being my favorite of the legions.)

I can appreciate that (iron within! iron without!) but surely you can appreciate that as what makes the Iron Warriors special.


I think one of the problems with GW's approach to Chaos is that our fiction portrays so many different textures to define the aesthetic of different sub-factions and yet what we're expected to use is visually treated like a sub-faction of loyalist marines.

I see that side of the argument, but also, in my view of things, only special cases should be demonically fused with armor, like champions or Gal Vobrak or whatever the Word Bearers dudes were called. My view (just my opinion) is that most chaos marines are still marines. They've had thousands of years to desecrate their armor, but inside they're still marines.
Llike this guy.


And this is coming from someone who had this guy.


I'm not saying my opinion is right, just that everyone kind of has their own head cannon for what Chaos should be.

Does that guy have a chainblade where his middle finger should be?


Awesome.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Does that guy have a chainblade where his middle finger should be?


Awesome.

Yes, and it is indeed awesome.
(sigh) Chaos used to be cool.

 MWHistorian wrote:

I see that side of the argument, but also, in my view of things, only special cases should be demonically fused with armor, like champions or Gal Vobrak or whatever the Word Bearers dudes were called. My view (just my opinion) is that most chaos marines are still marines. They've had thousands of years to desecrate their armor, but inside they're still marines.
Llike this guy.


And this is coming from someone who had this guy.


I'm not saying my opinion is right, just that everyone kind of has their own head cannon for what Chaos should be.

I think it comes back to the fact that Chaos is a lot of different things and that GW's chosen a very blank and overly generic interpretation. Going back to Iron Warriors for a moment, their fiction has them hacking off their own limbs and replacing them with bionics just to avoid becoming physically consumed by chaos. I don't think the basic Chaos marine should look like Gal Vorbak but there are alot of degrees between Gal Vorbak and Spikey Marines and even one degree from spikey marines towards full on daemonic would go a long way towards improving their aesthetic. Take the DV chosen minis, even though they are more organic and texturally daemonic a lot of that ornamentation is still arguably metal; there is plenty of metal work and jewelry that carry that sort of organic ornamentation; so even though they are more organic, there is room for interpretation. Even if those are a step too far for basic Chaos Marines, they show that there is room for making Chaos Marines more organic by just using some of those details.

I love that mini, I run a mayhem pack with 3 of those dreadnoughts.

Depends on the Legion. Somebody like the Night Lords or Alpha Legion (not counting Raptors, they're horribly mutated), shouldn't be running around in armor that looks like it's made of coral straight out of hell like the Word Bearers, Black Legion, Blood Gorgons, Crimson Slaughter, etc. Although for those legions, they're better suited by using LSM pieces and sticking Chaos helms on them.

Also, I do like one piece of that "old" CSM armor. The Top-Knot helmets are cool, they remind me a bit of knights or hopolites sticking horse-hair to their helms. Wish they made loyalist variants, seems like it would suit them more.

Well I'm certainly happy to hear that I'm not mad c;

I think one of the biggest problems with Chaos Marines at the moment is, that they are so damn different from each other. Even Marines, who are very different to each other, can still be represented fairly easily without special models or parts, but with Chaos, each Legion behaves wildly different from each other, which makes it hard to get a sort of unified fluff. This is what I see in the lore, too - Everything is a bit too much "Well it could be anything and everything" - So much that it hurts the faction, I feel.

I dunno, my headcanon is that all the Legions are touched by Chaos. Some like it more than others, but they can't escape it. That's the models, too - The new Helbrute has studio styles of both the Thousand Sons (who traditionally isn't fleshy chaosy) and Night Lords (who abhor chaos), so I see that as canon.

Yes I like that design. To the exclusion of all else? Not at all.
The DV models, the raptors/warptalons and the older metal terminators are all pretty awesome. Generally the artwork for csm is much better than the models but those come close. Like the guy on our codex cover, sooo sweet.

As far as models go though, anything forge world is even closer to the artwork/spirit. Especially in your case, for word bearers. you get to use models like this:


Also the plague marine and berzerker upgrade kits are the bomb. so if you don't like the basic GW visuals (which I consider a bit silly), then you still have other options.

Maybe what you could keep in mind is that there is no such thing as a generic chaos space marine. The degree of warpage depends on the individuals willpower, goals and affiliation with some god or another. To say nothing of the amount of time they spend in the warp. So it's perfectly fine for some marines to look barely any different while others are barely recognizable. So you basically choose what you want your marines to look like.

I have both of the above kits. Mixing 30k Night Lords and Word Bearers is making for a splendid CSM army so far, and one that doubles as a heresy era force.

I like the top knots too, they're quite fluffy for the formerly legions and the warrior lodges that dominated and corrupted them from within.

There is something sad that for the most part the present generic chaos marines could just as easily be accomplished with the sort of chapter upgrade sprues GW has done for loyalists. Whether its the appropriate look or not the more organic look is far more distinct and makes chaos feel less like an after thought to the loyalists.

I think the skulls and spikes look of the Chaos Marines are appalling. As you rightly touched on, they look like they're from a Death Metal album cover. I suppose, if you're a cookie cutter angry 14 year old, those look edgy. To me, they look tired. However, I like the recent move that the Chaos Marine asethetic is taking - back to the bio-mechanical horror look of the original realm of chaos. For example, here's one of the earliest Chaos Marine models:



Yes, it looks primitive by todays standards. But there's no skulls or spikes here. It looks Marine-esque, but something's definitely wrong. If you were to apply the aesthetic to today's techniques, you end up with:



No skulls or silly spikes, but a mutated mixture of flesh and metal. FW are, in my opinion at least, producing some proper chaos models.

TLDR

 zedmeister wrote:
I think the skulls and spikes look of the Chaos Marines are appalling. As you rightly touched on, they look like they're from a Death Metal album cover. I suppose, if you're a cookie cutter angry 14 year old, those look edgy. To me, they look tired. However, I like the recent move that the Chaos Marine asethetic is taking - back to the bio-mechanical horror look of the original realm of chaos. For example, here's one of the earliest Chaos Marine models:

Spoiler:

Yes, it looks primitive by todays standards. But there's no skulls or spikes here. It looks Marine-esque, but something's definitely wrong. If you were to apply the aesthetic to today's techniques, you end up with:

No skulls or silly spikes, but a mutated mixture of flesh and metal. FW are, in my opinion at least, producing some proper chaos models.

TLDR

Spoiler:

This isn't chaos:


This is:

Only if your idea of chaos is one of worshipping daemons Some legions out there might want to have a word with you

I love the DV CSM, they hark back to the old Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. CSM models, with wonderful baroque armour. The previous generation of plastic CSM, though a little crude by modern standards were far superior to the current ones.

Don't forget the original plastic chaos marines:

Roknar wrote:

Only if your idea of chaos is one of worshipping daemons Some legions out there might want to have a word with you

I agree with this too. In which case, are you really Chaos? Or are you just traitors? In which case, this look would probably be more appropriate (Vindicator at around 25 seconds in):




Or perhaps, this look:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
This is what I see in the lore, too - Everything is a bit too much "Well it could be anything and everything" - So much that it hurts the faction, I feel.

As a whole, if you're expecing csm, you have no idea what is coming exactly. But that doesn't stop you from sticking to one particular warband that is mostly similar in style. And there are so many different Warbands out there that have very different ideals, that anything you go with will be be fine lorewise. The only really problem with that is GW's codex. That suffers from what you describe in that it doesn't really have much of an identity to speak of.

Roknar wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
This is what I see in the lore, too - Everything is a bit too much "Well it could be anything and everything" - So much that it hurts the faction, I feel.

As a whole, if you're expecing csm, you have no idea what is coming exactly. But that doesn't stop you from sticking to one particular warband that is mostly similar in style. And there are so many different Warbands out there that have very different ideals, that anything you go with will be be fine lorewise. The only really problem with that is GW's codex. That suffers from what you describe in that it doesn't really have much of an identity to speak of.

The use of Warband is probably the best use when describing Chaos Marines in some fashion - a leader who has embraced Chaos in some fashion has amassed followers who aspire to him/want to topple him/worship him, etc. If you are a Chaos Marine, then it goes without saying that you have embraced an aspect of Chaos in some fashion either one of the major gods, or perhaps one of the lesser Daemons. If you have abandoned the Imperium but not for the Worship of Chaos, then you are merely traitors. And, yes, the current codex is a right mess when describing this. Imagine a way of determining and picking your Chaos Champion and his warband, Realm of Chaos style, without the Randomness?

@ zedmeister

Those are certainly lovely models, I probably like the old one even more than the recent FW releases. But they simply cover the "mutated chaos marine" profile. I believe CSM offer an incredibly wide array of visual possibilities, as you have many different "chaosy ways" to pick from.

I also believe the Skully Spiky marines can be cool if done right, and that includes not overdoing things and refraining from excessively baroque and ornate designs - since that's the way GW seems headed lately, I'm not actually looking forward too much to what may be released when the new codex hits the shelves.

Grimtuff wrote:I love the DV CSM, they hark back to the old Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. CSM models, with wonderful baroque armour. The previous generation of plastic CSM, though a little crude by modern standards were far superior to the current ones.

Spoiler:

I have 2nd ed. metal models, mid-90s plastic models and also some of the current ones, and I can say they actually mix nicely when put together.


^This is a 10-man squad, the metal model (middle) portrays the champion. The two models beginning from the right are "current" CSM (the kit has certainly got old). The rest are 90s plastics. Please pay no mind to the Chaos Lord on Jumpack (conversion) in the back.


^Closer image, metal - 90s - current from left to right.

I do love the RT era ones, some of them are IMO among the best 40k Chaos models GW has ever released. But unless someone doesn't know what they're selling, they tend to get pricey on eBay

Of course if all else fails...convert ^^ I find csm to be pretty much the single best army for conversions. Even size diferences won't look out of place if you want to make your lord a truescale marine for example.

This is my biker lord/sorc with burning brand ( sorry for the quality, the black primer that I used doesn't come out very good on photo)

No offense man, but a "biker" using a four-wheeled vehicle is just going to get him laughed out of the room by the rest of the Warband....

Many jokes were had at the Chaos Lord's expense concerning his training wheels.

Unless it allows you to carry a pretty massive unholy relic around that you couldn't otherwise fit on the bike
Burning brand is fed from the vat on the back, while the pressure tanks are on the front between the wheels.

Under the vat is a suitably nurgly pus filled belly that you can't see in the pictures. Also I didn't want a trike Or some weird throne of blood thing awkwardly balanced on the back of a bike.

Yep, they'll wet themselves.

Not to mention the laughing would cease pretty fast once he feeds a few of those laughing to the bike.

I used to feel the same way about Chaos, the 'spiky marines' never really grabbed my attention like the Loyalist Space Marines did. I think the design does suffer from being too 'generic' in the sense that the individual marines don't feel very different while (in my opinion) they should.

Being 'generic' works a lot better for the loyalists, as most chapters aren't that radically different from one another (except in terms of traditions or culture), and the ones that are different from their peers (like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves) get some extra bits to work with (or at least, they should). So the standard Tac squad kit for example covers most of the existing Chapters, and leaves the door open enough so that conversions and the like can add that little bit of personalization for those who wish to have their Chapter stand out a bit more.

Chaos, on the other hand, is indeed a lot more 'random', there's a lot more possible variations of the basic format. A warband devoted to Tzeentch and one to Khorne can look completely different, or completely the same, colour scheme not withstanding. One warband can be so far down the rabbit hole that is the Warp that they aren't even close to human anymore, while others can look as clean as a loyalist fresh from the armoury.

If I then take a look at the basic Chaos Space Marines kit, I just don't see that uniqueness being possible on even a basic level. Sure, there's a couple of icons in there, and some bits and bobs to add some variety, but nothing that can really make the Chaos Marines you'll end up with radically different from the ones someone else would make with the kit.

In other words, I think the Chaos Marines are too generic in their design; which is something the DV Chosen aren't. Each of those guys looks and feels different, they have their own little identity visible in their armour, their weapons, their pose. They're a bit too ornate for my taste, but I think they are good models, that represent Chaos very well.

So I think conversions and green stuff are the way to go with Chaos as the models are now. Using WHFB bits and that mutated bits sprue can go a long way as well. Adding that sense of individual identity to each model is (to me) the key to representing Chaos as it truly is: a union of self-serving, evil maniacs who are driven by their own desires as much as those of the warband they belong to.

But that's just my opinion, I'm not an expert on this sort of thing