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Prestor Jon wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The interest rates on the major loans to Greece are 3.6% (IMF) and 2.75% (ESF) which is not very high.

All the more reason not to blame bankers and make accusations of usury.

And really even then, the lender never made you take out a loan you couldn't repay. You did that of your own free will.

 obsidianaura wrote:
There was an article on the BBC I looked at.

It said that if everyone in the EU had a whip around and gave 500 euros each, we could pay off all of Greece's debt.

How much has everyone got spare?

Burning 500€ and using the ash as fertilizer would be more useful than throwing it in the hands of one of the most incompetent governments since...uh..Greece?

 Grey Templar wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The interest rates on the major loans to Greece are 3.6% (IMF) and 2.75% (ESF) which is not very high.

All the more reason not to blame bankers and make accusations of usury.

And really even then, the lender never made you take out a loan you couldn't repay. You did that of your own free will.

Lol, like there was a choice! If Greece defaulted 5 years ago the international markets (totally unprepared) would have collapsed, I highly doubt you would have maintained your job back then. The whole scramble was in order not to shatter world economy.
5 years later and still markets shake, despite their now being highly prepared.
"Here's the money so you may not default. Then again nobody is forcing you so you are taking it on your own free will. And oh, you must really not care about the fact we are only draining you, 89% of that we'll just take back as soon as we give it to you."

Get a grip... If you go tell a Greek upfront that they borrowed the last 5 years on their own free will you'll probably get punched in the face.


To a more serious point now, let's hope they work something out, the people are divided in half in Greece (half are at a point they no longer give a damn and want to see everything come crushing down, the other half don't wish 5 years of pain to go down the drain...)

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's the entire EU's problem. Letting everyone join without any good reason leads to problem like this. EU /= USA. That's something EU politicians just don't understand.

Greece has no industry and just lives on tourism. Romania. Croatia. Slovakia. What do they contribute? Exactly.

We contribute a market for your industry and a fresh economy for Germany and the rest of the EU oligarchy to plunder with the assistance of local traitors. That's the main problem Germany has with Syriza - they won't let you steal all their stuff.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
There was an article on the BBC I looked at.

It said that if everyone in the EU had a whip around and gave 500 euros each, we could pay off all of Greece's debt.

How much has everyone got spare?

Burning 500€ and using the ash as fertilizer would be more useful than throwing it in the hands of one of the most incompetent governments since...uh..Greece?

Not having my 400 pounds thanks, Greece got into this problem, its not our job to dig them out there own hole.

Right now if they default, or if they carry on and pay the IMF, its better than this limbo.

Syriza bottled it.

The job of governments is to make decisions. Instead, he abdicated this responsibility and decided to have a referendum.

Which ironically will cost a fair chunk of money to organise.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Syriza bottled it.

The job of governments is to make decisions. Instead, he abdicated this responsibility and decided to have a referendum.

Which ironically will cost a fair chunk of money to organise.

It was really a desperate, rash, move.

Merkel has called them on it (the referendum). Syriza have maneuvered themselves into a position of further weakness.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
There was an article on the BBC I looked at.

It said that if everyone in the EU had a whip around and gave 500 euros each, we could pay off all of Greece's debt.

How much has everyone got spare?

Burning 500€ and using the ash as fertilizer would be more useful than throwing it in the hands of one of the most incompetent governments since...uh..Greece?

Not having my 400 pounds thanks, Greece got into this problem, its not our job to dig them out there own hole.

Right now if they default, or if they carry on and pay the IMF, its better than this limbo.

I feel I now have to point out that I wasn't being serious

This article on the independent about where Greece's money was spent makes for an interesting read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/greece-crisis-how-has-greece-spent-its-money-and-who-does-it-still-owe-2428bn-to-10355847.html

I hoped that story would explain what the money was spent on. But it only tells me most of the money was spent on paying back other loans.

Apparently it is a bad thing that the Greek government has been able to secure low cost loans to cover the 50% of their debts they are being asked to pay back. Which now they don't want to do.

However if they still owe 242 billion, what did they do with the 512 billion they must have borrowed in the first place? That is what I want to know.

I think it bailed out private European banks when the crash happend

 obsidianaura wrote:
I think it bailed out private European banks when the crash happend

And has its been explained to you multiple times, the private banks took 50% losses on the Greek debt in 2012 so that is just not true.

I can't really find much info on why there was a debt.

There's loads of stuff saying that Greece received a bailout but I can't see a breakdown of where the money before that was spent.


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PhantomViper wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
I think it bailed out private European banks when the crash happend

And has its been explained to you multiple times, the private banks took 50% losses on the Greek debt in 2012 so that is just not true.

Sorry I'm not talking about the Greek bailout debt I mean before that.

 obsidianaura wrote:
I can't really find much info on why there was a debt.

There's loads of stuff saying that Greece received a bailout but I can't see a breakdown of where the money before that was spent.

Sorry I'm not talking about the Greek bailout debt I mean before that.

The money before that was spent because the Greek government has been running on a deficit since at least 1980. This as also already been stated.

Running on a deficit means that you don't have enough money for all your expenses, so you need to borrow money to cover the rest. Next year, if you are still running on a deficit, you'll need to borrow more money and since you now also have the original loan and interest to pay, the amount you have to borrow grows each year. And this has been going on for over 30 years = the huge debt that they have today.

Now if you wan't to know why the Greek government spent all that time running on a deficit it was because apparently tax evasion in Greece is more popular than football and also because of stuff like this:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2011/06/19/internacional/1308472242.html

(for those that don't speak Spanish)
- The Evangelismos hospital had a garden that consisted of 4 shrubs planted at its entrance. They had 45 gardeners on their payroll to care for them...
- More than 40.000 women received a lifetime pension of 1.000€ each month simply because they were the unmarried daughters of deceased civil servants...
- Several civil administration departments had more than 50 official drivers... and only 1 official car.
- The families of more than 4.500 deceased failed to report the death to Social Security so that they could keep cashing in the deceased's pension checks.
- Greece had more than 600 jobs that qualified for early retirement, among them were hairdressers, musicians of wind instruments and TV announcers...
- They also had numerous useless public institutes, the most famous of which was the Institute for the Protection of Lake Kopais. A lake that was drained in 1930!




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So, that proposal that the Greek government refused to accept and that led them to walk out on the negotiations on the weekend... Well, now they accept it...

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/files/2015/07/ESM-loan-agreement-prior-actions-amend-30.06.2015-1.pdf

But at the same time Reuters is reporting that the referendum is still going ahead.

So what is it?! How can they accept a proposal and then still hold a referendum about it? Especially when in that referendum, Tsipras is campaigning for people to vote "No"?

@PhantomViper

As stated above twice (this is the 3rd time, hopefully the last), Greece is certainly also to blame, since examples like the ones posted above are all TRUE.
Despite that, it certainly doesn't mean that all haidressers in Greece retire earlier, heck I don't know of any and -trust me- I know a lot of people. Nor does it mean that Greeks were all gardeners or limo drivers, I remember myself working ever since I was 16!

Huge changes have taken place over the past 5 years, certainly even more must take place to fix all this.

I remember when going to Lisbon back in 2006, the taxi driver saying he worked in a taxi because it was the fastest way for Portuguese to make money. When asked "how much" he said something like 800€. Well, that didn't sound a lot, but when coffee there costs 0,60€ and 0,80€ when in Greece it's something like 3,00€, it comes as no surprise. When asked about why local life is not as expensive as in Greece he replied that corruption keeps the wealth and the people do all the work -but the system works and everyone is happy.
That sure reminded me of Greece, yet I do not pretend the taxi driver to be fully blamed for the fact Portuguese economy today is also a mess. He still holds some minor responsibility however, yes?

PS. I respect what you are saying and also replicate the wish, someone must be mad to wish for people to suffer. But austerity has helped little and damaged a lot, I fear for what their plan is and what the hidden agendas prove to be.
For it's hidden interests that the decision-makers have and none involve the well-being of the Greek population...

Oh FFS!

“Several measures that the institutions are suggesting will not be enforced immediately but in stages so that the government can find equivalent measures to replace them,”

And now they are already undermining their previous letter by stating publicly that the proposals that they are agreeing to are being delayed so that they won't even have to implement them! Are these guys for real?


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 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
@PhantomViper

As stated above twice (this is the 3rd time, hopefully the last), Greece is certainly also to blame, since examples like the ones posted above are all TRUE.
Despite that, it certainly doesn't mean that all haidressers in Greece retire earlier, heck I don't know of any and -trust me- I know a lot of people. Nor does it mean that Greeks were all gardeners or limo drivers, I remember myself working ever since I was 16!

Huge changes have taken place over the past 5 years, certainly even more must take place to fix all this.

I remember when going to Lisbon back in 2006, the taxi driver saying he worked in a taxi because it was the fastest way for Portuguese to make money. When asked "how much" he said something like 800€. Well, that didn't sound a lot, but when coffee there costs 0,60€ and 0,80€ when in Greece it's something like 3,00€, it comes as no surprise. When asked about why local life is not as expensive as in Greece he replied that corruption keeps the wealth and the people do all the work -but the system works and everyone is happy.
That sure reminded me of Greece, yet I do not pretend the taxi driver to be fully blamed for the fact Portuguese economy today is also a mess. He still holds some minor responsibility however, yes?

But that Tax driver was to blame for the mess that our economy was in. And in 2006 all of that was true for my country or at least partly true, that talk you had exemplified what was deeply wrong with my country and why we landed in all the trouble that we did. Our previous prime minister is even in jail right now waiting trial for corruption, tax evasion and embezzlement.

But since 2011 all of that started turning around. Several measurements were put in place that prevented tax evasion, courts were given extra powers and resources to help fight corruption and the people's mentality that not paying taxes is "ok" has really turned sharply as a result, especially in such a small time frame.

Our current government failed in a number of reforms that they really should have implemented to ensure our long term sustainability, but two areas where they held up was in fighting tax evasion and corruption and those two are the prime reason why we managed to keep to our agreements with the Troika and successfully ended our aid plan.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
Nor does it mean that Greeks were all gardeners or limo drivers!

Quite so - but somehow there were a lot of gardeners and limo drivers listed for places that could have managed with one. Maybe someone was falsifying the number of workers and taking the money for himself? Or splitting it with the people he had listed while they in fact were working somewhere else?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
Nor does it mean that Greeks were all gardeners or limo drivers!

Quite so - but somehow there were a lot of gardeners and limo drivers listed for places that could have managed with one. Maybe someone was falsifying the number of workers and taking the money for himself? Or splitting it with the people he had listed while they in fact were working somewhere else?

I am not going to deny that, on the contrary I confirmed it. It's closer to the 2nd case, these people involved cashed in the paychecks/salaries even if they never showed up for work or just showed up to punch the card. ALL of these people were involved -one way or the other- with the political party that ensured them their post. Not for nothing rest assured, some type of favor was made in return, not to mention the votes guaranteed in any upcoming elections. I can't tell you what type of favors since I sincerely do NOT know.

BUT the greatest part is NOT like that, people in my circle for example (and we are not lower class) retire around the age of 67 to 70 and don't imagine any 3000€ pensions. Having worked an average of 40 years each (and I mean WORK), they usually ended up with something like 1200€, which due to cuts it's currently something around 7-800€/month. Easy to unfairly do so on those who have no strength to protest.
Not that they are not also to blame mind you, for they are paying their being idle in the face of injustice. But the blame is not mainly theirs, that's what I'm saying...

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
Nor does it mean that Greeks were all gardeners or limo drivers!

Quite so - but somehow there were a lot of gardeners and limo drivers listed for places that could have managed with one. Maybe someone was falsifying the number of workers and taking the money for himself? Or splitting it with the people he had listed while they in fact were working somewhere else?

I am not going to deny that, on the contrary I confirmed it. It's closer to the 2nd case, these people involved cashed in the paychecks/salaries even if they never showed up for work or just showed up to punch the card. ALL of these people were involved -one way or the other- with the political party that ensured them their post. Not for nothing rest assured, some type of favor was made in return, not to mention the votes guaranteed in any upcoming elections. I can't tell you what type of favors since I sincerely do NOT know.

BUT the greatest part is NOT like that, people in my circle for example (and we are not lower class) retire around the age of 67 to 70 and don't imagine any 3000€ pensions. Having worked an average of 40 years each (and I mean WORK), they usually ended up with something like 1200€, which due to cuts it's currently something around 7-800€/month. Easy to unfairly do so on those who have no strength to protest.
Not that they are not also to blame mind you, for they are paying their being idle in the face of injustice. But the blame is not mainly theirs, that's what I'm saying...

But no one is saying that the majority of Greek people are lazy, or don't work or anything like that. Those cases are being used as examples of wasted public funds, not of people that don't wan't to work.

And you keep talking about things being "unfair". This has nothing to do with fairness, its about numbers, your pension funds are rated the 8th worst in the world when it comes to sustainability (you where dead last when the first bailout was implemented). Your pensions cost your country 450 million € more each year than what people and employers are contributing to it. Don't you see that this is unsustainable?

(And when I say "you" I mean the Greek people, not you specifically)

PhantomViper wrote:


(And when I say "you" I mean the Greek people, not you specifically)

Yes, I know :-)
And when I write, I speak for myself, nobody appointed me Greek representative of anything here.
I don't usually involve myself (nor allow my company members) in personal views, but this is a serious matter and I willingly let myself carried away.
And you are right, "fair" has nothing to do with this, and even if it does is not as important as numbers. Numbers to fix all this...

IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed?CMP=share_btn_tw
Secret documents show creditors’ baseline estimate puts debt at 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to all tax and spending reforms demanded by troika


Greece would face an unsustainable level of debt by 2030 even if it signs up to the full package of tax and spending reforms demanded of it, according to unpublished documents compiled by its three main creditors.

The documents, drawn up by the so-called troika of lenders, support Greece’s argument that it needs substantial debt relief for a lasting economic recovery. They show that, even after 15 years of sustained strong growth, the country would face a level of debt that the International Monetary Fund deems unsustainable.

The documents show that the IMF’s baseline estimate – the most likely outcome – is that Greece’s debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to the package of tax and spending reforms demanded. That is well above the 110% the IMF regards as sustainable given Greece’s debt profile, a level set in 2012. The country’s debt level is currently 175% and likely to go higher because of its recent slide back into recession.

The documents admit that under the baseline scenario “significant concessions” are necessary to improve Greece’s chances of ridding itself permanently of its debt financing woes.

Even under the best case scenario, which includes growth of 4% a year for the next five years, Greece’s debt levels will drop to only 124%, by 2022. The best case also anticipates €15bn (£10bn) in proceeds from privatisations, five times the estimate in the most likely scenario.

But under all the scenarios, which all assume a third bailout programme, looked at by the troika – the European commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF – Greece has no chance of meeting the target of reducing its debt to “well below 110% of GDP by 2022” set by the Eurogroup of finance ministers in November 2012.

In the creditors own words: “It is clear that the policy slippages and uncertainties of the last months have made the achievement of the 2012 targets impossible under any scenario”.

These projections are from the report Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis for Greece, one of six documents that are part of the full set of materials that comprise the “final” proposal sent to Greece by its creditors last Friday.

These, which the Guardian has seen, were obtained by Süddeutsche Zeitung after they were sent to all German MPs with the expectation that the deal would need to be approved by the country’s parliament.

A vote in the Bundestag never took place as the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, rejected the plans and called a referendum on whether to accept the creditors’ demands.

While the analysis underlines the fact that Greece has already benefited from a number of debt-reducing measures – maturities have been extended, interest payments are similar to those of less indebted nations and the PSI in 2012 cut debt by about €100bn – the document also admits that under the baseline scenario “significant concessions” would improve sustainability.

But despite the lenders’ admission that Greece cannot thrive without debt relief the documents provide no clarity about what such a package might look like, nor does it provide any detail of a third bailout programme despite assuming one would exist. They promise only a more detailed debt sustainability analysis in due course.

IMF's uneven dealings with Greece is saga of embarrassment

The documents also throw light on the €35bn investment package that several governments, including Germany’s, have this week pointed out was offered to Greece last week.

The second document in the pack of six, titled Reforms for the Completion of the Current Programme and Beyond, show there was less to this offer than suggested by commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and Germany’s vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel. The cash on offer is not an ad hoc investment but is actually an EU grant that is regularly available to all member states. And, as Süddeutsche Zeitung points out, accessing the cash requires a 15% co-financing in Greece’s case, which it cannot afford. Because of this, Greece has unspent sums from its €38bn 2007-2013 pot of available grants.

A third document outlines the “financing needs and draft disbursement schedule linked to the completion of the fifth review”, spelling out how Greece would have received €15bn to meet its obligations until the end of November. The cash would have been handed over in five tranches starting in June (as soon as the Greek parliament approved the proposals) to cover Greece’s financing needs. However, 93% of the funds would have gone straight to cover the cost of maturing debt for the duration of the extension.

The remaining documents cover the nuts and bolts of the actions that were expected to be taken by Greece in consultation with the EC/ECB/IMF. One of these papers was also published by the European commission over the weekend.

The plan is premised on a primary surplus target of 1%, 2%, 3%, and 3.5% of GDP in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 respectively (both sides agree on these targets). It is anchored on VAT changes producing additional revenue of 1% of GDP and a reform of the pension system that leads to savings of 1% of GDP in 2016.

On VAT reforms, the proposal suggests broadening the tax base at a standard rate of 23%, and would include restaurants, and catering. There will be a reduced rate of 13% to cover a limited set of goods, that includes energy, basic foods, hotels and water (excluding sewage).

There was also to be a super-reduced rate of 6% on pharmaceuticals, books and theatres, an increase on tax on insurance and the elimination of tax exemptions on certain islands. The creditors had originally wanted only a two-tier VAT system.

In terms of pensions, which have been the stickiest point in the negotiations, the plan demands reforms to:

Create strong disincentives to early retirement, including changes to early retirement penalties
Adopt legislation so that withdrawals from the social insurance fund will incur an annual penalty, for those affected by the extension of the retirement age period, equivalent to 10% on top of the current penalty of 6%
Ensure that all supplementary pension funds are only financed by own contributions

Gradually phase out the solidarity grant (EKAS) for all pensioners by end-December 2019. This shall start immediately for the top 20% of beneficiaries with the details of the phase-out to be agreed with the institutions
Freeze monthly guaranteed contributory pension limits in nominal terms until 2021
Provide to people retiring after 30 June 2015 the basic, guaranteed contributory, and means-tested pensions only at statutory normal retirement age, currently 67 years
Increase the relatively low health contributions for pensioners from 4% to 6% on average and extend it to supplementary pensions

On Monday, Juncker insisted – incorrectly – that these measures did not amount to a cut in pensions. However, the creditors were correct in saying that they had compromised and the plans had some flexibility. They also suggested that Greece could provide alternative proposals as long as they are “sufficiently concrete and quantifiable”.

The creditors’ proposals also suggested that corporation tax rise only from 26% to 28%. Greece wanted the rate set at 29%.

It disgusts me that Junker, prime candidate for abetting corporate tax evasion, Lagarde, who pays no tax on her own income, Draghi, who comes from the broken financial system that caused the crash and Merkel, who has presided over the dramatic rise of inequality in her own country, can lecture anyone on these matters.

Greece has serious issues which have not been resolved, and corrupt actors who have not been punished. This is an indisputable fact. But there's a flip side to that and it's that the various banks and big investors of Europe were culpable in all kinds of twisted dodgey dealings throughout the lead up to the crisis, and in the main they have avoided any consequence bar a minor income drop. This disgusts me. I'm sure austerity measures would be easier to swallow if they weren't dictated by hypocrites protecting leeches.

 Da Boss wrote:
Merkel who has presided over the dramatic rise of inequality in her own country, can lecture anyone on these matters.

Lowest unemployment rates since several decades, minimum wage introduced, TTIP support and still being worked on, etc. Yeah...leftist ideology loses vs. reality.

Greece's main problem is...Greece. Zero industry. No natural ressources. Now, they realize that maybe, just relying on tourism alone isn't such a bright idea. Welp, too late. No sympathy. Corruption and open refusal to go after tax dodgers is a Greece-made problem. They refused the offer to let German officials help them out in doing their job. Well, I do hope that the Greece government at least regrets their poor choices. The only choice they have now is to bend over and pray for forgiveness. They had their chances, they refused them out of their blind arrogance. Too bad.

I said inequality, and minimum wage was only introduced when she was forced into a grand coalition with the SPD.

TTIP, don't make me laugh. I know your self interested stance on that, you've posted about it before, and it has zero to do with reducing inequality.

None of what you said bar minimum wage, which she didn't want to introduce, did anything to help inequality. Being employed in an unstable mini-job does not decrease inequality if the likes of the head of deutschebank are being massively overpaid for being obviously incompetent.

I also notice you have nothing to say about the rest of the cadre of hypocrites.

 Da Boss wrote:
I said inequality, and minimum wage was only introduced when she was forced into a grand coalition with the SPD.

Oh, so the conservative party voted against it and was overruled? I missed that.

TTIP, don't make me laugh. I know your self interested stance on that, you've posted about it before, and it has zero to do with reducing inequality.

I know that it's a hard matter to understand and that not everyone is willing to take the effort to delve into and fully comprehend it.

Being employed in an unstable mini-job does not decrease inequality

"A mini-job is as bad as being unemployed."

Yeah...re-read that. Think about it. Reconsider.

the head of deutschebank are being massively overpaid for being obviously incompetent.

Typical leftist "RICH PEOPLE ARE ZE EVIL" propaganda. Come on. Those evil, evil, evil people pay for the overly expensive welfare state Germany is. If you'd even force out half of the high rollers, Germany would have to cut most of its welfare features. If that's what you want...keep rocking the leftist way.

How about you re-read what I said? Because I did not, in fact, say that a mini-job is as bad as being unemployed. I am talking about inequality, which is the disparity between the rich and the poor. If some people are becoming disgustingly rich, and others are having wages and benefits lowered, then this increases inequality even if employment is high. I know it's hard to understand, but keep trying, you'll get there eventually.

And the banks are protecting us? Seems like they're the ones who exposed us to ridiculously large amounts of risk through unsound investment.

Also, I understand what the TTIP is perfectly well thank you.

The conservative party did nothing for the minimum wage until forced into coalition with the SPD, and it was not one of their policies, but an SPD policy. Compromise and unity with a coalition partner is common in politics.


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Of course, you're free to argue that inequality is not a bad thing. I can accept that, but not that the CDU policies (which were originally SPD policies really, sadly) have not increased inequality.

 Da Boss wrote:
How about you re-read what I said? Because I did not, in fact, say that a mini-job is as bad as being unemployed. I am talking about inequality, which is the disparity between the rich and the poor.

Precisely. A has an income of 3000€. B has an income of 0€. C has an income of 500€. You claim that the A-B gap is as large as the A-C gap. Basic math.

If some people are becoming disgustingly rich

There's no such thing as being "disgustingly rich". If you're jealous, then that's your problem. Why aren't you in a better-earning job? Not qualified?

and others are having wages and benefits lowered

http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/152761/umfrage/entwicklung-der-loehne-in-deutschland/

Facts. Use them. I know it's harder than just repeating leftist propaganda. Do it, though. Highly recommend it.

And the banks are protecting us?

Huh? Citation needed.

Seems like they're the ones who exposed us to ridiculously large amounts of risk through unsound investment.

Oh, they sure did. What everyone, no wait, every irrationalist, likes to forget, however, is that at the same time, they (among others) pay for everyone else. Have every big bank relocate abroad and let's see where Germany is going. I'll be glad to watch.

Also, I understand what the TTIP is perfectly well thank you.

Your posts on this matter portray the exact opposite.

The conservative party did nothing for the minimum wage until forced into coalition with the SPD, and it was not one of their policies, but an SPD policy. Compromise and unity with a coalition partner is common in politics.

Oh, so a compromise is the same as fully disagreeing?

If they wanted to increase minimum wage, why didn't they do it when they were in power before?

I believe there is such thing as disgustingly rich, though I am quite happy with my own income. I have enough to live on and buy
luxuries, and I'm qualified for my job, cheers!

Unfortunately, my German is not good enough to read your page of statistics, though I will give it a go if I have time.

As for the banks - where did I say I wanted them burned to the ground? I am a capitalist, but I believe that they are inadequately regulated and definitely do not suffer harsh enough consequences when they mess up and cause the rest of us massive problems. I believe this is a the fault of both public sector regulators who are "captured" by the banks and are too friendly to them, and the bankers themselves who utilise this light touch regulation to make a fast euro at the expense of long term profits.

I'm not some mad trotskyite dude. I just want a more just and equitable process.

 Da Boss wrote:
As for the banks - where did I say I wanted them burned to the ground? I am a capitalist, but I believe that they are inadequately regulated and definitely do not suffer harsh enough consequences when they mess up and cause the rest of us massive problems.

Now this is certainly a problem. One of those statistics pages posted earlier also had some nice stacks of dollars piled up next to banks. Nine of the biggest banks carried enough risks on derivaties trading (basically betting on future winnings) that it equals three years of the global gross product. They gamble on the wealth of the whole world! And when things go bad they cry for their national central banks to bail them out. In effect us taxpayers.

Private when there is profit, public when there is a loss. Socialism for the super-rich.

Pistols at Dawn wrote:
Also, Greece doesn't 'need' a "strong, powerful leader' it needs wholesale reform to end the decades of clientalism, tax-dodging and corruption that caused this mess in the first place.

There was plenty of corruption in Greece, in both revenue collecting and expenditure, but Greece is hardly unique in that area. When this mess started, Greece's debt to GDP was at a bit over 100% and had been more or less flat for a decade. Debt was high but hardly terminal, countries can carry twice the debt and remain stable.



It's grown to catastrophic proportions since then because Greek GDP has collapsed. And it's collapsed because of a combination of the GFC and the subsequent austerity in Greece and the rest of the Eurozone.

Tax and spending reform are good reforms, but they aren't really part of the solution to this immediate problem. What was needed was a stabilisation of the Greek economy.


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PhantomViper wrote:
Why? The "rot" in Greece is a mix of decades of corruption, tax evasion, public over-spending and no real export industry to speak of (and little of it that exists is apparently tax-exempt ).

No other country in the Euro suffers from all of those problems combined, so why would any "rot" from Greece spread anywhere?

There is a reason why Greece had to forge their public accounts in order to be eligible to enter the Euro, it was because their economy was nowhere near ready to allow them to do so (and still isn't). As soon as it was discovered that they had forged those numbers they should have left the Eurozone because then they would have a whole other set of financial mechanisms available that are only an option to a country with their own currency.

Exactly how a country ended up in debt is irrelevant to the fact that once you have debt, no-one likes paying it back. So Greece must not be let off, out of fear that Italy, Ireland, Portugal and everyone else with debt they don't want to pay back might also try for debt relief.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
That would worry the Eurozone how?

Germany and France want the 'club med' economies out of the shared currency.

Germany and to a lesser extent France have driven their economies in the last decade on exports to the rest of Europe, and that's been built on the competitiveness achieved through the Euro effectively undervaluing German and French labour.