3D Printer questions

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**Necros**

Don't mind the wait, I'm not gonna be ready to buy a printer till some time next year at least, and I wouldn't be getting into doing my own casts until after I have a printer.

Would that be something that could be done as stuff you cast at home, or does it require lots of big equipment? I don't think I'll ever have a separate office let alone a work shop of any kind, or even a garage or basement. I live in a tiny condo

But I was thinking that might be a more efficient way to do it instead of working with latex and waiting hours for it to cure.. but then I guess the mold prints would take hours too...

**chaos0xomega**

It would depend on some of the material properties of the print resin (or other material) you’re using (as well as the casting resin). As it would be a “hard” mold, all the limitations of a set of steel moulds would apply in terms of the model sculpt/part design. You would definitely have to grease the *hell* out of the insides, since like materials will generally bond to like materials (i.e. you’ll be forming chemical bonds between your casting material and your mold material unless you provide some sort of intermediary barrier via lubricating materials), and the lifetime of your printed molds would probably be relatively short. This is an area that’s largely unexplored though, people have only been looking at the possibility of printing molds (mostly using metal printers) for a short while now.

**Adam LongWalker**

Since we are talking about 3D printers, saw this on Ars Technica Enjoy.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/09/an-affordable-self-correcting-multi-material-3d-printing-platform/

**Necros**

hmm interesting

there's so many crazy options out there, it makes me almost hesitant to invest thousands in a printer that could be obsolete in a year. I'd really love to be able to find one that can do the high res you need for minis, without needing to use liquid resin that with my luck will just end up spilled all over my rug one day.

**Necros**

So.. are there any worthwhile printers capable of resolution needed for miniatures that don’t use the liquid resin / projector method? I’ve seen a bunch that use those spools of colored plastic, but I get the idea that they can’t do the kind of detail that minis will need. Just wondering if there’s any options that are a little less messy but still able to do similar quality for a similar price?

**chaos0xomega**

Not to my knowledge (aside from liquid/laser based systems), but I could be incorrect as I'm not 100% familiar with all the different tech being used in printer design atm. Based on what I do know however, anything that isn't using either a liquid or powder based print material probably wont do what you want it do.

**RiTides**

Well, there's not any cheaper method

There is something called PolyJet / MultiJet which is awesome, but expensive.

Here's a quick video showing the basics of it, but without much actual footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX0HPjc-3aw

Here's a longer video showing a PolyJet machine in operation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Yq3glEyec

But again - awesome parts, very expensive machines!

**WarMill**

Solidscape wax printers are your other option for miniature-quality prints, but again you're looking at high prices and they can be... temperamental. After over a year of battling with ours we eventually traded it in for a DLP printer and couldn't be happier with the results we're getting now.

**Loborocket**

Necros wrote:
So.. are there any worthwhile printers capable of resolution needed for miniatures that don’t use the liquid resin / projector method? I’ve seen a bunch that use those spools of colored plastic, but I get the idea that they can’t do the kind of detail that minis will need. Just wondering if there’s any options that are a little less messy but still able to do similar quality for a similar price?

Did you get the samples i sent you form the Ember? I did not hear back. Were you happy with the results? Have you tried painting them up?

**Necros**

Yes yes and no

Been so busy I haven't had a chance to paint them but the detail does look very good. One of these days I'll prime them and give them a light black wash so the details will pop out better.

**Necros**

Threadromancing the Stone!

So, it looks like a miniatures-grade 3D printer is going to be out of my price range for quite a while. Wanted to bring this back and ask if anyone has any experience with more "consumer" grade printers that might be able to do a good job printing terrain? Like walls, buildings, roads, etc?

Looking at some recent Kickstarters, there's been a few lately where they are just selling 3D files and you print & paint them yourself. And looking at the new Dwarven Forge castles, for their big castle pledge that's like $700+, I bet you could buy a decent enough printer plus a few castle wall files and print as many castles as you want for that kind of price.

And for my own 3D sculpting that I'm still trying to get the time to get into, it would be handy to have at least a low res printer if anything so I can check proportions and dimensions, and then send the final sculpts out to get pro printed at the end.

I don't need the kind of resoltion where I can print 28mm scale eyeballs, but I would like to at least be able to see some wood grain or stone/dirt textures. So, anyone know of any decent but cheap printers that would be good terrain?

**Adam LongWalker**

Necros wrote:
Threadromancing the Stone!

So, it looks like a miniatures-grade 3D printer is going to be out of my price range for quite a while. Wanted to bring this back and ask if anyone has any experience with more "consumer" grade printers that might be able to do a good job printing terrain? Like walls, buildings, roads, etc?

Looking at some recent Kickstarters, there's been a few lately where they are just selling 3D files and you print & paint them yourself. And looking at the new Dwarven Forge castles, for their big castle pledge that's like $700+, I bet you could buy a decent enough printer plus a few castle wall files and print as many castles as you want for that kind of price.

And for my own 3D sculpting that I'm still trying to get the time to get into, it would be handy to have at least a low res printer if anything so I can check proportions and dimensions, and then send the final sculpts out to get pro printed at the end.

I don't need the kind of resoltion where I can print 28mm scale eyeballs, but I would like to at least be able to see some wood grain or stone/dirt textures. So, anyone know of any decent but cheap printers that would be good terrain?

Give it time the cost will come down quickly.

As an example of how things have gone down in a similar fashion. 20 years ago if I wanted a used Die sublimination printer (a wax based ink printer) and a used die cutter would cost me over10K. Now I can get a refurbished tabloid waxed ink based printer and a new commercial strength die cutter designed for home use for 4K. 3K if I wanted to go used on the die cutter.

For myself I can do my pre press work and even go ahead and/or do a white box run on a few things. And the process would be so freaking fast.

This will happen here for 3D printers for home use to the point of the efficient (and cheap) use of consumables, speed, and cost will be very affordable to the average person.

**Necros**

So, I think I am going to take the plunge in a couple of months and get my own printer. Lately I’ve been looking at the Form Labs Form 2, I like this one because it has a large build area so I will be able to do bigger terrain projects as well as regular minis. Maybe it will be faster too since I’ll be able to fit more minis in the build area and do a lot more in 1 go. It can do 25 micron prints, I’m assuming that will be good for minis? Or is the 25 micron not good and I need to look for something better?

http://formlabs.com/store/us/form-2/buy-printer

So…. what kind of resin do I need? They have gray resin for $149 that can do 25 micron prints .. but then there’s “castable” resin that’s twice as much.. what’s the difference? Is castable tougher so it will stand up to mold making a lot better? I want to be able to use them as masters for metal or resin models.

**Dark Severance**

Necros wrote:
So…. what kind of resin do I need? They have gray resin for $149 that can do 25 micron prints .. but then there’s “castable” resin that’s twice as much.. what’s the difference? Is castable tougher so it will stand up to mold making a lot better? I want to be able to use them as masters for metal or resin models.

I unfortunately can't answer the question with castable resin in regards to what Form Labs uses, you might have to ask them what the specs on it are. Usually when 3d printers talk about castable resin they mean it is either high temperature or able to withstand high pressure or both. Essentially they are designed to be in pressure or withstand pressure and heat of vulcanizers so you can use them for masters. They all tend to have different specs so I would request the specifics which will answer the question it should list the hardness, temperature it can withstand, etc.

There are a couple things to be aware of when using and buying a Form Labs, that I would take a look at this review . Now the issues that he had were with the Form1 so hopefully they have been resolved but still something to ask about.

**Necros**

ah, makes sense. I remember my mold maker saying that prints needed to resist around 375 degrees.

I checked out a few video reviews so far, but mostly just showing the print quality. it looked good to me but I won't know for sure till I can see one of my own minis printed with it so I can really compare the 2.

**Dark Severance**

Necros wrote:
ah, makes sense. I remember my mold maker saying that prints needed to resist around 375 degrees.

I checked out a few video reviews so far, but mostly just showing the print quality. it looked good to me but I won't know for sure till I can see one of my own minis printed with it so I can really compare the 2.

The issues I was referring to actually wasn't about the quality. The quality is fairly good it is more other costs and that build software isn't as efficient as it should be in terms of placement on the build and the amount of resin it uses. It is a good printer but just should be aware about the quirks.

Not being able to control placement of the Support Structures in the PreForm software is a bit fishy too. PreForm places Support Structures in places that other 3D printing software would not - makes you wonder if that is done to use as much resin as possible so that you buy more - you can only use resin from Formlabs.

While Stereolithography printing produces very detailed objects - there is quite a bit of cleaning to do after and this little station helps you to remove the printed object from the Build Platform and wash it.

Clear resin supplied by Formlabs - available in 1 liter bottles. At 150 USD per bottle, the resin doesn't exactly come across as cost effective but comparing it to what I would normally pay external services then this is actually considered cheap. For the amount I can print with a liter of resin on my Form1, I would have to pay an external service about 250,000 yen.

All completed objects on the Build Platform are incredibly difficult to remove and usually involves the piece in question flying across the room from the force of trying to scrape it off the platform

Sometimes there are print fails which can be due to various factors. One is forgetting to clean the Resin Tank after a 3D print as there is usually some deposits of cured resin at the bottom.

Another reason could be that the Build Platform was not cleaned properly but am not sure whether this is a factor that contributes to print fails. Its always a good idea to keep an eye on the print process incase there is a fail so that you can cancel the print - or the laser will just keep shooting at the tank creating a blob of nothingness.

The bottom of the Resin Tank has a layer of silicon and care must be taken not to damage it when removing any cured silicon.

The Form1 help center also seems to be vague regarding certain questions especially when it comes to resin which makes one think that they purposely do that so that you end up buying more Resin, Resin Tanks and Build Platforms.

**Necros**

It looks like the Form 2 may not work for me after all. After doing a lot of research and emailing back and forth, I found out that their resins can't resist temps much higher than 200 F. My mold maker told me many times that prints need to resist up to around 320 degrees. I don't want my print to melt into a blob in the middle of the molds.

I think it would be fine if I was making my own resin molds and just pouring latex rubber on them, but the molds for metal minis get hot. What kinds of printers & resins are companies using for metal minis?

I thought about switching to casting my own resin minis, but I don't have the equipment.. I can get it, but then I also don't have the facilities. No workshop or basement or garage for me, it's not something I can get into at this point. I asked IWM about doing resin minis instead and they always tell me it will be too time intensive and expensive than it's worth unless it's going to be something big.

**Dark Severance**

There hasn't been a real home consumer grade 3d printer that does master quality prints that is high temperature resistant (340 degrees) inexpensively. I believe the last time I checked it was about $10K for essentially a dental grade resin 3d printer. There are inexpensive printers that can print high temperature resistant prints but the quality isn't that good. When I'm having metal masters made I usually outsource those prints.

The printer I use does decent quality but I don't really get uses from it to create masters. I utilize it for testing designs, sizes and other things. I haven't been happy with anything in the lower range for masters at this time.

Does your mold maker not have access to RTV molds? It takes a bit longer, it is a higher cost mold but it lets them create at least the initial mold to create masters. Or to create a casting mold from that as well.

The other option is what I also do, which is print your pieces. Then cast the masters in a high temperature resin yourself. Creating a vacuum chamber and pressure pot is about $250-500. Then really the equipment at that point is the resin, clay and whatever you want to use to create your forms. Then you can sell a limited run of resin (40 or so) to offshoot costs and time. Pick your best couple pieces as masters to send to your mold maker.

**Grot 6**

Necros wrote:
So, I'm thinking about getting my own 3D printer. I plan to get into sculpting some of my own stuff in the future and it'll be a big help to be able to print stuff myself while I'm learning, and also print out minis other folks sculpt for me, rather than send it out somewhere and wait. The company I've been using has a printer that costs 6-figures and can print at 15 microns. It costs more than my house, so I don't expect to be buying one of those ever. There's printers out there nowadays that are much cheaper, the one I'm looking at right now is the Ultimaker 2 .. there's also a smaller sized one that's cheaper and might be all I need for minis.. but, this one does 20 micron and not 15. I haven't found any other "affordable" 3D printers that can go lower than 20.

So, question is, for printing minis like your average space marine for instance... would there be a visible difference in detail between 15 and 20 microns? I'm assuming the lower the micron the better the detail, but not sure 5 microns will really make a difference?

Wait....

They will be better next year or two at the most.