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I've just picked up a rather large AM army. Too big to say off the top of my head but around the idea of 15+ tanks, 2 valkyre, and a shed load of troops.

The only issue I've got is. I was mega stoked to be playing guard until I told my friends who I game with. Guard suck apparently. We don't play tournaments mind you, but he plays craftworld and Skitarri/Admech and tau. He says tanks are too easily destroyed and my troops are garbage.

Any help with deterring this naysayer??

Tell him to stick with his flavour of the month armies. Then buy some Wyverns.

 Andy140491 wrote:
I've just picked up a rather large AM army. Too big to say off the top of my head but around the idea of 15+ tanks, 2 valkyre, and a shed load of troops.

The only issue I've got is. I was mega stoked to be playing guard until I told my friends who I game with. Guard suck apparently. We don't play tournaments mind you, but he plays craftworld and Skitarri/Admech and tau. He says tanks are too easily destroyed and my troops are garbage.

Any help with deterring this naysayer??

Hate to say it, but in the current edition, that's largely true.

That's not to say that Imperial Guard are completely helpless, but there are both some core rules issues and codex paradigm issues that hamper them and there are absolutely some games where there won't be much you can do (Necrons in particular when running IG if they're running Wraiths and a Decurion).

In terms of core rules, the IG stuff is really costed to, and wants to operate in, a 5th edition environment (and even then a lot of it is painfully overcosted), despite the book coming out just a couple of weeks before 7th edition. Unfortunately, to add to that, it came out during a design phase from GW where they were actively working on toning down power levels and options/customization before reversing course hard and going the complete opposite direction earlier this year starting with Necrons and continuing through Eldar, AdMech, SM's, etc.

With the vastly increased power level of newer armies, it makes things difficult. It doesn't help that anti-tank firepower has exploded, while GW still seemed to write 7E around complaints from 5E. There's a ton of Haywire, Grav, Destroyer, and Gauss floating about, and then there are Formations (of which IG have almost none) that grant insanely powerful special rules, abilities, wargear, and units (for zero cost) that can dramatically ramp up the power level and capabilities of many armies.

That said, your best bet still is to go heavy armor. I try not to field any less than a dozen tanks in a 1500-2000pt game, usually I aim for at least 15, and if I can get more, even better. In many cases, this can still overwhelm some opponents ability to respond.

I'd also note there are some other armies facing similar issues currently, like Dark Eldar (unless they're running Eldar allies).

Fingers crossed they get an update over the next year or so

If not I think I might be ending up with Daemons of somekind (the GW models not psychological ones haha)

Sadly he is telling the truth. Out of the masses of units in our book only about four or five of them are actually valid choices. My first question to you is: Do you have Imperial Armour Book2 second edition?

However, the viable units that we possess are useful. Leman Russ tanks, if some of the variants are a little over priced (Looking at you Demolisher and Battletank) are some of the hardiest units going and can perform miracles on the battlefield (I have had mine knock out all kinds of stuff) As most of his saves are 4+ or worse take a couple of Eradicators. These are really cheap S6 AP4 close support tanks but there gun ignores cover. In other words he gets no save against them. A special note here is the Tank Commander whom is a HQ choice and if bought can allow you to take up to three tanks as a HQ choice. Combine that with the three HS slots and you can have 12 tanks on the field in a bound list!

Wyverns are the other popular choice. 4 S4 AP5 twin linked ignores cover blasts per turn? Sounds good. Just watch out as these do suffer from being under armoured, so keep them back behind the tanks.

Company Command squads are great choices to augment your force with orders and can bring a Master of Ordnance and a Master of the Fleet per squad. The former drops a S9 AP3 barrage pie plate once per turn whilst the latter can either increase the chance of your reserves coming in or decrease the chance of the enemies reserves entering (very useful).

Veteran Squads should be your go to troops choice. Most of the units in the Platoons are largely useless and whilst a heavy weapons section may look nice they cost far to much to ever be worth it (45 points plus weapons on 3 BS3 T3 W2 models). To give some comparison the cheapest heavy weapons section you can do is 60 points (three mortars). You can have a Veteran Squad for that.
Veterans are incredibly versatile and can have Carapace Armour, Camo gear, Demolitions Charges and Melta Bombs (The look on your opponents face when you charge his Land Raider with 10 Melta Bomb equipped Veterans is priceless), up to three special weapons one of which can be a Heavy Flamer and a heavy weapon team. At BS4. Do it.

The final choice is the Vendetta and to a lesser extent the Valkerie. But I have no experience with these so....


You other choices are garbage. As mentioned above Platoons are a meh choice, especially with the new skyrape assanialation force which will decimate your blob squad in a single turn and they are just not worth the cost. Priests lost the Eviscerator and with that any real reason to take them. Commissars are not bad, but too pricey and the Lord Commissar needs a points drop.
Rough Riders are still garbage, costing only 1 point cheaper than a Marine but with non of the survivability. Scout Sentinels are a hit or miss thing, best equipped with autocannons and HK's and sent tank hunting. Armoured Sentinels are not too bad actually and can be considered as an alternative to HW sections.
Militarium Tempestus (hereafter referred to as Storm Troops) may seem an okay unit but they are far from it. For two points more than a Space Marine you get less armour, initiative, strength, toughness, leadership, less strength on your gun and possibly less weapon skill ( I can not remember). The transports for these are also gak.
The Taurox is a useless choice, costing more than a chimera and having with less armour than a fething Rhino, speaking of which the Chimera is now in an iffy place for what it does. 65 points for only one facing above AV10 and two BS3 weapons is not value for points. the flamethrower tanks are also largely garbage. Sure, you have 12 points of armour at the side but you have to pretty much get point blank to your target. And if you dont get them all (highly likely) then they WILL charge your tank next turn, and you can kiss 130+ points good bye.
Ogryns and Bullgryns both cost far far too much. Too gie you a rough idea a minimal strength unit of Ogryns costs 120 points, and for Bullgryns that is 135 points. For THREE models. To make them viable squads you are talking in the 200/275+ region and for what they do you are honestly better off with more tanks. Ratlings too are rather iffy, suffering from a strong case of dying fast if the enemy gets lose.
Basilisks used to be a good choice, in the previous editions when they could fire directly. But now they have a minimal range of 36" which means you will usually only get two shots off before the enemy gets too close. Manticores can be okay but really need to be AP3 and/or ignores cover to be worth while. The Deathstrike suffers from having a delayed launching time which means by the time it fires the enemy has most likely closed with you.
Hydra's are far to pricey. Sadly, you may need some as many people bring flyers these days.

I hope this helped.
As a fellow Imperial Guard player I sympathise with you. Let us just pray we get a new codex soon.

Platoons are far from a bad choice. Bunker your heavies in with the blob rather than give up first blood having them in their own squad for a start. Priests grant Zealot, pretty useful especially on Conscripts, which, look at that, are unlocked by using Platoons. Orders are huge when you're using blobs. Ignore cover, shoot + run, instant rally + act normally for the remainder of the turn.

Troops, Heavy Support, and to some extent HQ sections have some nice choices, Fast Attack has one or two. The elite section is entirely made up of trap units.

Also as an Imperial faction we have access to a ridiculous amount of allies. A few servo skulls from Inquisition will prevent the new Space Marine skyhammer thing from tabling you instantly, intelligent deployment will also help in that regard.

Sure, AM infantry is nothing to write home about and tanks, while powerful, have some crippling vulnerabilities. Spend too much in either of them and you're toast.

The key, then, is finding the balance between the two.

A few servo skulls from Inquisition will prevent the new Space Marine skyhammer thing from tabling you instantly, intelligent deployment will also help in that regard.

I would like to see how such deployment looks like, because normaly I get tabled by dual skyhammer every time. Gravs blow up my tanks, bolter devs pin my infantry and assault marines kill my order givers.

Also IG's special rule: We roll more dice than you do. Weight of fire is the name of the game, drown your opponent in dice. A fully blocked out platoon is what, 120+ models?

No one does redundancy better than IG too, use that to your advantage. Target saturation and use of cover will keep your squishy humans from being... well squished. If you have JUST tanks, it'll be easy to play can opener, if you run just cheap platoons it'll be easy to get tied up, while with just vets you won't have enough targets to keep the vets safe.

With 7th its a uphill battle with the but that doesn't mean we cant play with the big boys, guardsmen WILL die, tanks WILL get blown up, hold the line and die standing, for the Emperor!

On a side note, Hellhounds have a deceptively long range due to the torrent rule and being a fast tank I love it for digging squishy troops out of cover. The Banewolf however doesn't have torrent so it suffers from trying to get too close which get it dead more often than not. The Devildog while a 24" range is a single small blast so.. yeah.

Just like it has been said previously, IG is rather weak in competitive environments on its current codex, but really, don't be afraid. If you play casually at your FLGS, you can defend yourself very well against normal players. I mean, if you take into account the fabulous IA Vol.1 2nd Ed plus allies shenanigans, you could build a very correct force IMO.

Special mention to Earthshaker artillery platforms (75 pts for a S9 AP3 big pie, that's more than interesting) which can take orders and are rather tough with T7 and up to 8 crewman (understand Wounds). Stick a high Ld fella with them and they will get any Ignore Cover order you need them to. Vulture Gunships are also always fun to use with their Punisher Cannon; not terribly cost-effective but any infantry would cry with Strafing Run + TL + 20 S5 shots.

Then, in regular codex, LRBT are still a safe choice, just like Wyverns, Hydras and chimera spam.

Makumba wrote:

A few servo skulls from Inquisition will prevent the new Space Marine skyhammer thing from tabling you instantly, intelligent deployment will also help in that regard.

I would like to see how such deployment looks like, because normaly I get tabled by dual skyhammer every time. Gravs blow up my tanks, bolter devs pin my infantry and assault marines kill my order givers.

I play against a dual Inquisition/Guard list often, and a smart use of infantry combined with Servoskulls to fill in the gaps is all my opponent has to do to keep my drop pods and outflanking fast elements at bay.

Orders....

Troops are much better if you give them orders.
Ignore Cover, Tankhunter, and Pinning can help make up for being rubbish at shooting.
Keep your PCS and CCS in Chimerae if you are worried about them, and stay in orders range for the infantry.
The only problem is that the infantry need to be on foot to accept them.
Keep them in cover, and maybe look a the Wall of Martyrs trenches. They give Stubborn to anyone in them, and are open to take orders.

MarsNZ wrote:
Platoons are far from a bad choice. Bunker your heavies in with the blob rather than give up first blood having them in their own squad for a start. Priests grant Zealot, pretty useful especially on Conscripts, which, look at that, are unlocked by using Platoons. Orders are huge when you're using blobs. Ignore cover, shoot + run, instant rally + act normally for the remainder of the turn.

Troops, Heavy Support, and to some extent HQ sections have some nice choices, Fast Attack has one or two. The elite section is entirely made up of trap units.

Also as an Imperial faction we have access to a ridiculous amount of allies. A few servo skulls from Inquisition will prevent the new Space Marine skyhammer thing from tabling you instantly, intelligent deployment will also help in that regard.

You have obviously never seen a Drop Pod/Skyhammer list murder and table an Imperial Guard army in turn 1 or 2. I have.
There is literally no defence. You use big blobs? He pins them then charges them with a 10 man plus character assault marine unit. You instead choose to use MSU? Then he combat squads and does the same. The regular drop pods and their cargo blitz your army and by the end of his turn 1 you have lost the range advantage (your only real advantage) and most of your army.
The fact that Hydras, the first AA unit in the game, have not got Interceptor is appalling.

Hydras are just... ugh I want for them to work so badly it hurts but what can we do eh? Servo skullls will definetly keep the drop pods at bay. Also, couldn't you just shove a priest in with a blob and be immune to the pinning and use the hymns to smack around the assault marines? Thrown in a psyker with the appropriate powers and the marines won't want get into cc.

Stick those behind cover sprinkle with cheap fortifications and tanks traps (the tank traps are impassable terrain for the drop pod) combined with servo skulls will let you pick where he lands.

I run IG with an Inquisitorial detachment to quite a bit of success.

I am gonna have to disagree with MoO on the vulnerability of Guard to drop/Skyhammer when you have a properly built infantry platoon. I use Inquisitor Coteaz to establish a neat little no-go zone, and an Aegis Defense Line to further bolster where the assault Squads can't land. The arrangement is equally effective as a T1/T2 protection for my troop core and my tank squadron.

My general strategy is to use psychically buffed LR tanks and the 5x Lascannons from the platoon to hammer whatever I can to stop my opponent causing me significant damage, then I move out with mounted vets and mounted Inquisitorial Henchmen in chimera to claim objectives.

Other than that, I agree. Guard have only a handful of solid units. But I believe with proper addition of allies and buffs they can go toe to toe with the scariest stuff the enemy can offer. In particular, Eldar players HATE it when 5x Twin-Linked Ignore Cover Lascannons rip into their serpents and tanks.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

Makumba wrote:

A few servo skulls from Inquisition will prevent the new Space Marine skyhammer thing from tabling you instantly, intelligent deployment will also help in that regard.

I would like to see how such deployment looks like, because normaly I get tabled by dual skyhammer every time. Gravs blow up my tanks, bolter devs pin my infantry and assault marines kill my order givers.

I play against a dual Inquisition/Guard list often, and a smart use of infantry combined with Servoskulls to fill in the gaps is all my opponent has to do to keep my drop pods and outflanking fast elements at bay.

I though the deployment part was separate from taking ally. I was probably wrong. Was there a reprint of the inquisition codex ?

Other than that, I agree. Guard have only a handful of solid units. But I believe with proper addition of allies and buffs they can go toe to toe with the scariest stuff the enemy can offer. In particular, Eldar players HATE it when 5x Twin-Linked Ignore Cover Lascannons rip into their serpents and tanks.

That kind of a sucks, if other armies can be played out of one codex and people have fun with them, while you have to use mutiple books and FW, which may not even be accepted. Also taking ally cut the ability to take a second IG detachment, which may hurt people that want to run 4 heavy supports or fast attacks.

When did servo skulls begin affecting drop pods? AFAIK, the skulls are only good at stopping scouts and infiltrators. Coteaz in a shooty squad is good against pods but only if they get within 12 inches. He definitely helps to fill gaps in your deployment zone where you don't want enemy deep strikers.

 JB wrote:
When did servo skulls begin affecting drop pods? AFAIK, the skulls are only good at stopping scouts and infiltrators. Coteaz in a shooty squad is good against pods but only if they get within 12 inches. He definitely helps to fill gaps in your deployment zone where you don't want enemy deep strikers.

Exactly. The Servo Skulls do naff all against the Drop Pods.

As for the Inquisition thing,I do not see why I should have to buy two armies just to make my codex effective. For one thing I can not afford a second army and for another it just highlights how weak IG are.

 master of ordinance wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Platoons are far from a bad choice. Bunker your heavies in with the blob rather than give up first blood having them in their own squad for a start. Priests grant Zealot, pretty useful especially on Conscripts, which, look at that, are unlocked by using Platoons. Orders are huge when you're using blobs. Ignore cover, shoot + run, instant rally + act normally for the remainder of the turn.

Troops, Heavy Support, and to some extent HQ sections have some nice choices, Fast Attack has one or two. The elite section is entirely made up of trap units.

Also as an Imperial faction we have access to a ridiculous amount of allies. A few servo skulls from Inquisition will prevent the new Space Marine skyhammer thing from tabling you instantly, intelligent deployment will also help in that regard.

You have obviously never seen a Drop Pod/Skyhammer list murder and table an Imperial Guard army in turn 1 or 2. I have.
There is literally no defence. You use big blobs? He pins them then charges them with a 10 man plus character assault marine unit. You instead choose to use MSU? Then he combat squads and does the same. The regular drop pods and their cargo blitz your army and by the end of his turn 1 you have lost the range advantage (your only real advantage) and most of your army.
The fact that Hydras, the first AA unit in the game, have not got Interceptor is appalling.

Sounds like you just deploy everything in a line without considering what your opponent might do and get tabled often. Not much people can do to help you with that.

My mistake about the Skulls though, mixed up the lines about enemy scouts and friendly deepstrike.

Also "buying a whole new army" costs $30 here when it's inquisition, and NZ pricing is probably the highest in the world - worse than Australia.

Maybe it's douchey in low-point games but if all else fails you can consider the Baneblade or one of its variants. Certainly not invincible but sounds like they're pretty potent if you know what to do.

Dang, was almost certain that the servo skulls would keep out the pods as well. Well you can still spread out and use cheap fortifications and battlefield debris!

That's a good idea. Get the barricades as fortification options, and scatter them around. I think they're 10 points each, and are quite large.
Close all the gaps too small for a drop pod to land in.
As cover and pod-denial, they'll make their points back pretty quickly.

 Andy140491 wrote:
I've just picked up a rather large AM army. Too big to say off the top of my head but around the idea of 15+ tanks, 2 valkyre, and a shed load of troops.

The only issue I've got is. I was mega stoked to be playing guard until I told my friends who I game with. Guard suck apparently. We don't play tournaments mind you, but he plays craftworld and Skitarri/Admech and tau. He says tanks are too easily destroyed and my troops are garbage.

Any help with deterring this naysayer??

Compared to those armies the Imperial Guard does pretty poorly, Tau in particular are a pain in the *rse, but our tanks are some of the toughest this side of a land raider and against non win at all costs armies we can really hold our own.

Also, codexes change, Tau, Eldar and Mechanicus will drop a few levels one day. Besides IG have some very awesome models and a load of conversion opportunities, so even if you lose to the win at all costs crowd you will still have a fun ride, besides who can't love 55 guys for 310 points?

Actually the new Tau codex coming out around October is going to get buffed. Also we now have a new SHW of insane power. Also rumors of a new super heavy tank from FW.

I expect to see squadrons of Riptides. Also the rumors of the new Missileside Riptide, new troops, and maybe other things. We don't know yet. If rumors are correct we're looking at a 4 Kit release for Tau.

Edit
If our units remain the same or get buffs then I'll use a simple CAD. If they get nerfed because of our powerful formations though then I'll use the formations. Whatever is more fair to pre-formations codexes. My friend has a AM army too and hasn't won a single game against anyone. He is a terrible terrible player though. Even lost to the low tier Chaos player.

We are underpowered in todays format, and I really wish that GW hadn't gotten rid off so many of our Ordance Battery choices. We also could use some formations to use as well. Right now the only non-FW one we have is the Tank Company and the Bullgryn one. Do take Inquisition as allies and load up on the Leman Russes, they are the iconic guard tank for a reason. Hopefully next codex our units get some buffs, maybe even the old Hydras back.

I have a feeling our next release will see regimental doctrines back, more artillery vehicles, and a new SH tank!

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I have a feeling our next release will see regimental doctrines back, more artillery vehicles, and a new SH tank!

Can only hope so, those first two sound like they're really needed.

Wouldn't be surprised at the last one, another big model to hock!

Yes please to regimental doctrines. Might actually revive Vostroyan/Steel Legion/ insert any non-Catachan, Cadian, or DKoK model lines. There's a lot of fun that can be done with them that can please both the crunch and fluff lovers. Heck, I'd be even happier if GW decided to give the more famous regiments the seperate SM codex treatment.

OP: Having been at this game since second edition I would suggest:

Pick the army you are most interested in since you will be assembling, painting and playing for hours so you better like the look of them.

Learn the rules, you can leverage what you have and dish out some pain, review some forum advice if you feel you need to up your game.

Look at what would make a good allied army you like the look of and add a bit to that for a change if you finally get sick of IG/AM.

I have the pleasure of having a large variety of models and army's to choose from so I avoid the main cause of getting stomped: I can change my army configuration wildly so it prevents my opponent from "list tailoring" by knowing what I will bring. Plus it really shakes up my game so it keeps it interesting.

Think about it, I would suggest not getting everything in one big horde, it puts a lot of pressure on you to REALLY like what you have or buyer's remorse will be killer.

Good luck!

OP, you just said you don't play tournaments. You should be fine.

Any army can suck in the hands of the wrong general. And compared to Eldar, sure you may have set up a bit of a handicap, but you can still do well in friendly settings.

I have had some very rough games against IG, and have seen IG lay waste to many at my store.

So don't fret man, you will probably surprise some people.