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So I've done some play testing with a new ITC tournament list / version of the centstar using the librarious conclave and essentially two seperate centstars.
This essentially doubles the effectiveness of the army. It does however drastically decrease the amount of side units in the army so it's more of an all or nothing type army but honestly the old version was like this anyways because it couldn't legitimately compete with maelstrom type lists.

My main concern is the skyhammer formation because turn one before the psychic powers are up is when the list is most vulnerable and I'm expecting lots of this formation to show up at the tournaments. My initial thought would be to try and half bubble wrap the centstars with scouts and try and minimize the damage, but this doesn't seem like a truly viable plan.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Below is the list:

Librarious conclave
1 tiggy
2 lvl two librarians

Space marine CAD
1 lvl two terminator librarian with stormbolter

2 five man bolter scouts

1 droppod

1 four man grav cents, 1 missile, sergeant omniscope/ missile
1 threw man grav cents, 2 missiles, sergeant missile

Grey Knights Nemesis strike force
1 lvl three librarian with domina book and hammer
1 lvl two librarian

1 five man strike squad

1 Draigo

1850 points

Yeah I dunno man, even if you get T1 to power up, Skyhammer or even conventional Gladius pod lists won't be on the board. They null deploy. Okay, say Gladius goes for rbacks instead. Fine. You kill 2-3 rbacks, get first blood, and then the star that doesn't have invis gets trucked by their entire army.

Even if you had double invis somehow, I don't think you can kill enough units. Gladius at 1850 is like 28-30 units easy. There aren't enough turns in the game. Your only shot would be in a standard objective scoring mission where you can shoot them off critical obj's and make the late control play. But in progressive scoring missions, you're up crap creek without a paddle every time.

It's not your fault. All shooting deathstars, IMHO, are non-viable right now. CC stars like Wolfstar and to a greater extent, Jetseer, can beat MSU by massive multi-assaults. But even CC deathstars aren't as good a strategy as out MSU-ing other MSU lists.

I'm picturing so many skyhammers coming to tournaments.

That many relentless grav cannons is going to hurt centurions bad.

Like the shrike said, shooty stars are not great in the current meta

Why not drop a librarian and get a bunker? Skyhammer problem pretty much solved... MSU issue, not so much.

One Culexus assassin and some templates will make you very sad if you're ever in deep strike formation after using gate.

Actually, in ITC format, invis only makes shooters BS1 against you, so massed flamer templates or twin-linked blasts (just over 50-50 chance of hitting at BS1) hitting from the cent side would make a mess after you gate.

I tried a very similar list to what you have here. Tested it against a Battle Company w/ culexus. Like the others have mentioned. There's not enough bodies.

I also have created a new list that relies on smaller "stars". One deployed in a bunker w/ hatch and the other in a pod. Have not had a chance to try it yet.

This should counter some of the mentioned problems.

You could keep it in reserve, and when it walks on T2 throw up your psychic powers

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could keep it in reserve, and when it walks on T2 throw up your psychic powers

1) If he keeps it in reserve, what exactly is he going to deploy and not risk tabling? Skyhammer/Gladius and Eldar/Tau can all dish out alpha strikes that demand true null deployment via drop pods or full deployment with proper bubble wrapping and/or fortifications for critical units.

2) Reserving Deathstars, especially shooting-based ones, simply doesn't work. They already struggle to remove enough units from the board to win. Taking turns away from them voluntarily is assisted suicide.

Also, if he reserves it, he's guaranteeing interceptors can fire at it while it's not invisible.

One of my solutions is this:

1. Run White Scars.

2. Bring Cypher. Drop 1 librarian and maybe some upgrades (missiles, reduce to Lvl 1 possibly).


White Scars give you Hit-&-Run.

Cypher gives Shroud and H-&-R. Stick Cypher with Conclave + Draigo in ruins for 2+ shrouded cover. Laugh off their shooting. Then when they assault, just hit-&-run out afterwards.

In an ITC tournament that unit will never benefit from hit and run.

Mavnas wrote:
In an ITC tournament that unit will never benefit from hit and run.

Yes they will. Hit-&-Run isn't from Chapter Tactics, at least not for the big, mixed squad. It's from Cypher.

Then the small squad with the White Scars CAD libby in drop pod will be able to H-&-R as well as they won't be mixed Chapters.

Its a shame cypher can't deploy with them - only joining once the game starts

 jy2 wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
In an ITC tournament that unit will never benefit from hit and run.

Yes they will. Hit-&-Run isn't from Chapter Tactics, at least not for the big, mixed squad. It's from Cypher.

Then the small squad with the White Scars CAD libby in drop pod will be able to H-&-R as well as they won't be mixed Chapters.

Look at the ITC FAQ. The cents will strip H&R from any White Scars with them. Cypher keeps it, you're right, but now that star is even more expensive and unlikely to make back its points.

Mavnas wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
In an ITC tournament that unit will never benefit from hit and run.

Yes they will. Hit-&-Run isn't from Chapter Tactics, at least not for the big, mixed squad. It's from Cypher.

Then the small squad with the White Scars CAD libby in drop pod will be able to H-&-R as well as they won't be mixed Chapters.

Look at the ITC FAQ. The cents will strip H&R from any White Scars with them. Cypher keeps it, you're right, but now that star is even more expensive and unlikely to make back its points.

The FAQ hasn't been updated for the new marine book yet. It still reflects the 6th edition codex where WS traits didn't give hit and run to terminators and centurions. It's moot now that all WS, including dreadnoughts, get H&R.

Sure, but the FAQ has an update date newer than the codex release and hasn't been changed yet... so, yeah.

I see where you are getting here. That just makes Cypher all the more important in the ITC format.

However, in other formats, I believe that by RAW, centurions should get H-&-R in a homogenous Chapter unit.

BTW, I like Cypher because he takes out some of the unreliability of psychic powers. The more psychic powers you have to cast, the more there is a chance for points of failure. With Cypher, you don't have to risk casting Shroud or Gate (though you certainly can cast Gate as a backup to his H-&-R).

 Massaen wrote:
Its a shame cypher can't deploy with them - only joining once the game starts

Hasn't been a problem so far for me. Just put him out of LOS or in ruins. Or hide him behind a bunch of centurions. They are big enough to block LOS if you position them properly.

I give you that. I like Cypher. I can't bring myself to pay that many points and take the Ld hit.

Cypher is forgeworld? Unfamiliar with him honestly

Cypher doesn't even exist. If you continue making these heretical claims about these supposed "Fallen Angels", who by the way have nothing to do with the Sons of the Lion, you'll have the Deathwing and a few friendly Interrogator-Chaplains knocking on your door pretty soon.

After some brainstorming I think I have a possible solution to the skyhammer formations if I happen to run into them.

I add two rhinos and use them as walls and then deploy scouts behind them and the centstars inside those... This gives four targets prior to targeting the centstars and even if the skyhammer combat squads thats too many targets to reach the centstars

This does require either the board edge or some terrain use in order to properly shield them, but it does seem very feasible imo... Thoughts?

Are the Rhinos big enough to hide a Centstar behind? (You can't put bulky things in a Rhino.)

A building might work since buildings are immune to grav.

Or you could just get a million conscripts and do the same thing more effectively. Also, with a million conscripts you get 2 million rapid fire lasgun shots! I don't see any way you could cover a 24" radius bubble with just a few squads, with terrain or not. Deploy inside a bunker and you can maybe survive if there are nothing but gravcannons coming down with the skyhammer. If your opponent is smart enough to bring some melta down you can say bye-bye to both the bunker and your unit.

Well grav cannons are the only truly scary thing for all the 2+ armour on the centstar... As far as the rhino being big enough to block, it would at least give cover saves but should force them to shoot it first, and if nothing else the scouts would because you can't shoot through units I thought

I can't take forgeworld or fortifications for this upcoming event ... Forgeworld isn't allowed and I can't take fortifications because I've already hit my max detachments for ITC... Albiet a totally valid option and my first thought was void shield

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Or you could just get a million conscripts and do the same thing more effectively. Also, with a million conscripts you get 2 million rapid fire lasgun shots! I don't see any way you could cover a 24" radius bubble with just a few squads, with terrain or not. Deploy inside a bunker and you can maybe survive if there are nothing but gravcannons coming down with the skyhammer. If your opponent is smart enough to bring some melta down you can say bye-bye to both the bunker and your unit.

Actually, it only takes 12 models to deny a square foot of table if you can keep them at 2" apart. Now as soon as the shooting starts, 12 conscripts will crumble, but against a null deployment list that doesn't get to shoot before the pods come down, it's good enough.

I'd say that the bolters in the dev squads could clean up a few conscripts. Let's not also forget about Deathwind launchers or storm bolters on the pods either.

Ravenwing is going to destroy gladius. To the extent gladius isn't going to show up to tournaments. I wouldn't worry about gladius.
Marine lists are going to be more focused on hard hitting alphas from skyhammer and CAD with ultra marines running tiggy with grav devs.

Problem is - MSU don't gain much from libbies because their firepower and total wounds/defense is so low per squad. Marine have almost no other method to ignore cover - and without ignore cover - you can't beat raven wing. Want to see how fast 25 MSU can disappear when they cant kill anything? watch that matchup.

Skyhammer + CAD also wrecks galdius - the alpha alone I calculate can kill 8 razorbacks with decent rolls. Leaving you fighting an army of bolter marines fighting heavily armed marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ravenwing is going to destroy gladius. To the extent gladius isn't going to show up to tournaments. I wouldn't worry about gladius.
Marine lists are going to be more focused on hard hitting alphas from skyhammer and CAD with ultra marines running tiggy with grav devs.

Problem is - MSU don't gain much from libbies because their firepower and total wounds/defense is so low per squad. Marine have almost no other method to ignore cover - and without ignore cover - you can't beat raven wing. Want to see how fast 25 MSU can disappear when they cant kill anything? watch that matchup.

Skyhammer + CAD also wrecks galdius - the alpha alone I calculate can kill 8 razorbacks with decent rolls. Leaving you fighting an army of bolter marines fighting heavily armed marines.

I beg to differ.

My Battle Company runs about 400-pts of free transports as well as 2x3 units of centurions in drop pods. And I put characters with Auspexes in them. I've seen some BC's run Legion of the Damned to complement them as well. There are ways for marines to ignore cover. The Gladius isn't dead against Ravenwing.

Anyway, I think Ravenwing is overated lol. MSU and Skyhammer are way more scary, to me at least.

Remember, lists have to compensate for the entire meta. Tau are going to get updated SOON. And then ignore cover will be back in the meta in a big enough way that RW will fall back to RPS status.