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 Silent Puffin? wrote:

frankelee wrote:
The problem with Warhammer Fantasy Battles was that veterans didn't spend anything.

I don't even think that's true. I tend to make 3-4 new armies or equivalents per year for what ever game system I am interested in at the moment.

So far this year I have completed an Epic Marine army, 1500 points of UCM for Dropzone, a 6 point warband of Islemen for Saga, a Nuln Mordheim warband and the Haqq Islam starter set for Infinity. GW has seen no cash whatsoever from this despite the fact that I have painted 5000 points of GW miniatures that I was forced to get from Ebay. I am currently painting a Goblin army for KoW (using GW miniatures) and I am planning a Minervan Super heavy Regiment for Epic (featuring 15 Baneblade hulls) that I will either be buying from ebay or I will be using models that I already possess.

I am definitely a wargaming veteran and I spend quite a lot of money on toy soldiers yet GW doesn't see a single penny. Granted I get quite a lot of stuff from Ebay or other manufacturers but if GW produced what I want, at a reasonable price, then I would buy from them.

Oh yeah, I was just providing the set-up with that tired old line about veterans not buying enough. I think a lot of people are like you, gamers like to get new things, a lot of us have that collecting gene too, we're not averse to spending money on our particular hobby. But their prices are so crazy, and you start to get a little older and wiser, it's easy to move onto better, more cost effective games, or just hit up eBay. Not to mention if they really wanted to keep veterans spending regularly, what about a new Blood Bowl/Necromunda/Warhammer Quest style game every two years with supplements? Instead they give us shaker cups.

frankelee wrote:
Oh yeah, I was just providing the set-up with that tired old line about veterans not buying enough. I think a lot of people are like you, gamers like to get new things, a lot of us have that collecting gene too, we're not averse to spending money on our particular hobby. But their prices are so crazy, and you start to get a little older and wiser, it's easy to move onto better, more cost effective games, or just hit up eBay. Not to mention if they really wanted to keep veterans spending regularly, what about a new Blood Bowl/Necromunda/Warhammer Quest style game every two years with supplements? Instead they give us shaker cups.

GW has made it pretty clear they're not in the board game business anymore. There's nothing wrong with that.

Fantasy Battle's woes come from three different vectors:

1. FB Veterans weren't spending money on FB the way that 40k veterans spend money on 40k
2. There weren't many new FB players
3. FB was losing players

The reasons why don't really matter. The fact is, something had to change.

They could have tried to build a better mousetrap in regimented fantasy battle -- a la KoW. My guess is, this was discussed and decided at the top of the company's food chain that large scale fantasy games are just not big moneymakers anymore.

Instead they went for a product that competes with WMH, but in a tangential way, because it appeals to a less "my points your points FIGHT!" crowd, and more to a gentle cooperative scenario crowd. I think this is smart on GW's part, because WMH players who are happy... why would they switch games? Instead, go after the people who aren't happy with WMH, because perhaps, they find the scene too competitive, and the rules more work and less fun.

Time will tell if their bet pays off. However, since it wasn't like FB was making a pile of money, they don't exactly have much to lose.

 Talys wrote:

The reasons why don't really matter. The fact is, something had to change.

Yes, and GW chose the wrong option as usual. The reasons why are absolutely vital, but GW in its infinite wisdom does no market research so.......

Its vaguely possible that AoS will be a huge success but I would be astounded if AoS was still supported in any meaningful way in 5 years time (assuming GW still exists as a single entity by then of course).

They have already lost one of the most venerable worlds in Wargaming to knock out the turd that is AoS. Desperation or genius? I think its safe to assume which I think is more likely.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:
They have already lost one of the most venerable worlds in Wargaming to knock out the turd that is AoS. Desperation or genius? I think its safe to assume which I think is more likely.

You and I disagree on the quality of AoS: you think it's turd, I think it's the coolest box set **any company** has come out with in a long time. I actually think the Sigmarites in the box are some of the most beautiful and technically sophisticated models I've seen to date, especially the Prosecutors and mounted Lord Celestant. Then again, I highly value models, much more so than game rules, even though I enjoy playing the game, so we may have very different priorities.

You are totally entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, and I believe both are equally valid. I hope we can just leave that debate there without more hyperbolic statements. I don't think there's a whole lot more to say anyhow.

I don't know if AoS is the product of desperation or genius, or both -- they're actually not mutually exclusive. However, I suspect the truth is, it's some shade of grey. I'm sure Games Workshop was frustrated with the Fantasy Battle sales and the direction and size of the community; AoS is definitely a different beast than all the other zillion point-based games out there and an attempt at innovation.

As usual, reality isn't quite black and white, and I suspect its success will fall somewhere between abject failure and everyone's favorite game, rather than at either of those markers.

I wonder if it is true that 40K players are more likely to be super fans and buy lots of high price kits.

One effect of AOS was to make me go into some GW shops and take a look at what is on offer. There were some super kits for Fantasy, the Skaven Doom Wheel and the Bell, for example are huge, intricate models, so is the new Nagash monster. Not my style at all but I can appreciate the amount of detail and parts from an objective viewpoint.

Why are WHFB players not buying them? Is it something about the nature of 40K that attracts a different type of player? The fantasy side used to be huge for GW. When and why did things change, and how fast was the decline?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Why are WHFB players not buying them?

I simply don't like large 'cool' models. My armies are almost universally filled with 'rank and file' models; often with some kind of modest centrepiece unit such as elite heavy infantry. I have no interest in the kind of large kits that GW has been producing over recent years.

I would never, ever buy a 28mm scale Knight Titan for example , but I would be all over them at 6mm should they ever be re-released.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Why are WHFB players not buying them?

Typically for many I think it's because most of the large centerpiece models were terrible as cannons and the like would destroy them. Even a horde of basic troops could take a monster down if they had enough attacks. Aside from Nagash, every time I used a monster it just didn't feel as impressive or as powerful as I thought it should, typically getting slaughtered by cannons turn 1 or 2 or having so few wounds once they got to combat they survived maybe a round or two before dying, though at least then they tended to take out a decent chunk of the unit they were fighting. If my opponent didn't have cannons then my monsters felt like a better deal, but not to the extent many of the 40K centerpiece models.

Typically the large centerpiece models in 40K are tough and powerful, and aside from grav-guns don't typically have as much of a hard counter. Wraithknights, IKs and the like tend to survive most if not the entirety of a game and tend to more than make up for their points cost.

I agree that cannons put a hurting on your larger models. I own the screaming bell ( awesome model) but in two turns the cannons would just out right kill it. Cannons might as well have been laser guided in 8th edition which was one of the things most people agreed on that needed to be tone down.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Why are WHFB players not buying them?

Typically for many I think it's because most of the large centerpiece models were terrible as cannons and the like would destroy them. Even a horde of basic troops could take a monster down if they had enough attacks. Aside from Nagash, every time I used a monster it just didn't feel as impressive or as powerful as I thought it should, typically getting slaughtered by cannons turn 1 or 2 or having so few wounds once they got to combat they survived maybe a round or two before dying, though at least then they tended to take out a decent chunk of the unit they were fighting. If my opponent didn't have cannons then my monsters felt like a better deal, but not to the extent many of the 40K centerpiece models.

Typically the large centerpiece models in 40K are tough and powerful, and aside from grav-guns don't typically have as much of a hard counter. Wraithknights, IKs and the like tend to survive most if not the entirety of a game and tend to more than make up for their points cost.

This ^. Most of the epic sized center piece models (like my mortalith vortex beast) are/were pretty bad on the table top due to cannons and magic. It wasn't worth the time or money to build and paint an $80 model to have it removed turn 1 every game by some 100 pt cannon or at the sign of the first magic missile.

Yeah it just feels like, as usual, GW wants something but they don't want to do what it takes to earn it. They want to complain veterans don't buy enough, but they dump the skirmish level games and board games which keep the brand invigorated and keep veterans regularly buying a cycling product. They want people to buy new armies, but they price themselves up like Williams-Sonoma, making people rethink casual single purchases for models they like, and put the sticker shock brakes on impulse purchases. They put out these huge, often very beautiful centerpiece models, who instead of being integrated well into the game like PP did, get the label of being OP when there aren't cannons on the table, or wastes of points when there are cannons on the table. Forget the gaming perspective, from a business perspective they haven't done a good job maintaining this top of the market brand. Even 40K sales have fallen, it's not just Fantasy, it's company-wide. The littler game just died first.

People keep saying "GW prices are so bad"... but in reality, they are not...

I mean really, compare their prices and units to other companies and the difference is minimal...

edit: apart from Kings of War I guess, some of their stuff is priced pretty good (skeletons) but quality is still not GW

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if it is true that 40K players are more likely to be super fans and buy lots of high price kits.

One effect of AOS was to make me go into some GW shops and take a look at what is on offer. There were some super kits for Fantasy, the Skaven Doom Wheel and the Bell, for example are huge, intricate models, so is the new Nagash monster. Not my style at all but I can appreciate the amount of detail and parts from an objective viewpoint.

Why are WHFB players not buying them? Is it something about the nature of 40K that attracts a different type of player? The fantasy side used to be huge for GW. When and why did things change, and how fast was the decline?

I think that the fantasy models are simply more generic. You have many companies that produce elves, orcs, humans, etc. On the human side. there is nothing special about Brettonians or Empire. Sure, they're nice models, but so are there nice models from many other companies, and technically, they are not wonders of sculpting.

By the time the superpremium models (like Nagash) came out, it was too late.

As a really big 40k fan, I fall in love with the factions, which are really unique and don't have comparables. I mean, sure, a lot of companies make a couple of kits that are similar to a couple of 40k kits (Valkir et al), but there's no range that is close in its entirety, no even to Imperial Guard. Plus, you have vehicles, which is a really big thing for me, because they're really fun to model, and there are just no plastic vehicle kits by other companies (in contrast, there are dragon, demon, ogre, minotaur kits from lots of other companies, for example).

Finally, Space Marines.

I know some people hate them because they get so much attention, or they're sick of seeing them, or whatever. But in the scifi realm, and really, the modelling realm, there exists no line of infantry models which have so many interchangeable bits as space marines (it's not even close). For those of us who like the combination of heraldry and knights plus big guns, Space Marines are just the perfect answer.

Frankly, I could build and paint another couple thousand space marines (they wouldn't all be the same, including chapter, obviously...), spend 10+ hours on each one, and still be excited to paint the next one, which is something that I couldn't say about anything else, including anything else that GW makes. I couldn't even imagine painting a couple hundred elves or dwarves. A few would be fun, but that many sounds like excruciating work, not fun, to me.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Army Painter in a sense is taking advantage of the user's lack of knowledge about DIY.

Army Painter dip is basically the same formulation as Minwax polish, used for decades by historical players to get tabletop standard results quickly and easily. However the magic dip technique is still a kind of folk knowledge while Army Painter gives you the confidence of buying a product that is guaranteed to produce the results.

Coloured primers are the same thing. You could just buy spray paints from DIY or graphics shops and get the same results, but the primer spray promises you it will work.

Montana Gold spray chrome paints are £4.99 a can, if someone wants to avoid the official GW gold spray.

I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

 doc1234 wrote:

I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

Dettol works well although I personally use acetone (only for metals though).

Why is GW making League of Legends Dice Shakers and Measuring tools?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I wonder if it is true that 40K players are more likely to be super fans and buy lots of high price kits.

One effect of AOS was to make me go into some GW shops and take a look at what is on offer. There were some super kits for Fantasy, the Skaven Doom Wheel and the Bell, for example are huge, intricate models, so is the new Nagash monster. Not my style at all but I can appreciate the amount of detail and parts from an objective viewpoint.

Why are WHFB players not buying them? Is it something about the nature of 40K that attracts a different type of player? The fantasy side used to be huge for GW. When and why did things change, and how fast was the decline?

I'm more a WHFB fan than a 40k fan and I love big cool models. That said I didn't really buy any of the recent big cool models because I didn't like 8th edition and also because the armies I collect didn't really have that many big models that I thought looked cool.

GW would have made a fortune out of me if they'd released some decent dragons and some cool looking large demons.

Part of the problem may just be that, GW's aesthetic for monsters in WHFB doesn't click with me. Too many of their big models are close but not quite there aesthetically to get me to buy them.

Silent Puffin? wrote:
I would never, ever buy a 28mm scale Knight Titan for example , but I would be all over them at 6mm should they ever be re-released.

Wot, not even for converting an emperor titan?

That said, I agree with you. Wouldn't mind a couple of big things in an army, but GW just seemed to go monster mash recently. The fact that WFB basic infantry needed extra rules bolted on just to survive the onslaught should've spoken volumes.

And I'm hovering over ebay, waiting for a Warden to go for less than mental prices.

bitethythumb wrote:People keep saying "GW prices are so bad"... but in reality, they are not...

I mean really, compare their prices and units to other companies and the difference is minimal...

And people keep saying "GW prices aren't so bad" as if a price-tag-by-price-tag comparison is all there is. Forgetting material (plastic moulds are a significant initial cost, but casting costs pennies compared to metal or resin, and GW still has the in-house facilities and 'mass' market to keep costs down), model count (almost certainly contributed to the death of big battle warhammer, with most of those unique, high-quality little snowflakes lost in the middle of unit blocks. But even with this ostensibly smaller-scale game, I see people talking about having 100-200 model games. And who knows what lack of army composition and future official scenarios will demand?) and quality of rules. (Randomhammer didn't please enough people, apparently)

But y'know, I'm surprising myself in that I'm starting to think that GW's prices might be worth it, again (from discounters at least), though that's with a set of rules that doesn't demand huge model counts, and a good, thought-out set of rules that isn't trying to sell minis, at that. And even then it'd be nice if that heavily discounted box of plastic dreadspears at £1.50 a mini could be brought a bit closer to the likes of full RRP Perry plastic medieval infantry at about 50p a mini.

doc1234 wrote:
I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

Dewd. Fairy Power Spray. Srsly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

GW would have made a fortune out of me if they'd released some decent dragons and some cool looking large demons.

GW not releasing decent dragons? I know just what you're talking about, and personally, I think there's one simple little reason for that problem.

The entry price is low, these are all optional extras that aren't needed

There will be an initial rash of sales as anyone interested picks them up (they're well entitled to like them) before these items clog up shelves until December when grandparents and other slightly confused shopped pick them up as suitable accessories/stocking fillers

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:

I think part of that is country difference troubles. When I was stripping some plastics, I saw a lot of "Use Simple Green/ whatever other American cleaning product". None of which available here as far as I know. If Army Painter released their own branded "Hobby Stripper" then yeah i'd buy it.

Dettol works well although I personally use acetone (only for metals though).

Yes I ended up using Dettol, was just reinforcing KillKrazys point of folk knowledge vs convenience.

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

TBM wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

It's like GW have never produced a unit where you can't see faces...
If it helps with the narrative, you could always write their names on their based and include copies of their Curriculum Vitae with their warscrolls...?

RoperPG wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

It's like GW have never produced a unit where you can't see faces...
If it helps with the narrative, you could always write their names on their based and include copies of their Curriculum Vitae with their warscrolls...?

Its like you think all I talked about was their lack of faces.

When in actuality it's a combination of factors.

- No visible faces.
-Every mask looks identical/they all look alike.
- No personalities.
- Only exist to fight chaos.
- The "perfect" army to fight chaos.

- BORING.

Why would anybody buy that unit at that price point ever?

Or buy these - happy with mine - 2 for £3.95

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TT-Combat-Templates-Hammer-Movement-Widgets-Set-of-2-Great-for-AoS-/391201915834

TBM wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

TBM wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is just too funny man! 5 models for $67USD? Or that "batte gauge" for equally stupid price? Either they are very very up themselves or people are actually buying this haha.

Is this a new level for GW? I think it is...

Read those descriptions, comedy man.

Sigmarines all look alike they have no visible faces, no personality, or reason to exist beyond "Fight Chaos". Why would anybody buy that box of 5 Sigmarines, EVER?

It's like GW have never produced a unit where you can't see faces...
If it helps with the narrative, you could always write their names on their based and include copies of their Curriculum Vitae with their warscrolls...?

Its like you think all I talked about was their lack of faces.

When in actuality it's a combination of factors.

- No visible faces.
-Every mask looks identical/they all look alike.
- No personalities.
- Only exist to fight chaos.
- The "perfect" army to fight chaos.

- BORING.

Why would anybody buy that unit at that price point ever?

People buy Grey Knight terminators, who cover all those points. As for price - people bought the Witch Elf boxes.
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

People also buy Terminators, who cost about the same and are terrible rules-wise.

People buy stuff like this all the time, it's nothing new. The only different thing is that these are for AoS and therefore (apparently) must be hated by all and are automatically the worst things ever made.

People buy Grey Knight terminators, who cover all those points. As for price - people bought the Witch Elf boxes.
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

Grey Knights as an army don't cover all those points.

A battle brother doesnt look like a terminator. There's troop variety. They have personalities, they're flawed - they'll kill whole planets and wipe out whole IG armies to keep secrets from getting out. Some of their range have exposed faces and the option to add bare heads in the kit. Sigmarines are ensouled automaton demigods who all wear the same armour across their entire range and exist for one purpose only. Why would any child pic a sigmarine over a grey knight? As a game 40K > AoS. As a model the real thing > A cynical imitation.

people bought the Witch Elf boxes

Yes, cos they aren't a set of dull golden mary sues.

RoperPG wrote:
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

Besides, where does all the 'background' on Grey Knights come from? It's not in their army list entries.
The Stormcasts aren't as 2D as you're making out, they just don't have the breadth of fluff that GK's do that we now take for granted.
In the Gates of Azyr book there's a scene where the celestant encounters humans, and talks to them without headgear on. There's also reference to the fact that the Stormcasts lose a little of their former selves with each reforging, but a large part of the story is Vandus struggling with balancing who he was against who he is now.
I'm not saying it's good fluff, but it's no less 2D than every single space marine story that didn't involve primarchs.

RoperPG wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
It's all a matter of opinion, if you like it you'll buy it, if you don't then you won't.

Besides, where does all the 'background' on Grey Knights come from? It's not in their army list entries.
The Stormcasts aren't as 2D as you're making out, they just don't have the breadth of fluff that GK's do that we now take for granted.
In the Gates of Azyr book there's a scene where the celestant encounters humans, and talks to them without headgear on. There's also reference to the fact that the Stormcasts lose a little of their former selves with each reforging, but a large part of the story is Vandus struggling with balancing who he was against who he is now.
I'm not saying it's good fluff, but it's no less 2D than every single space marine story that didn't involve primarchs.

There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

Imagine if the entire Dark Elf range looked like slight variations of the plastic executioner model. There's one with a sword and shield, one with a bow and one with wings. That's it. No other aesthetic besides the executioner with the skull helm, repeated across the entire army. Make them fight chaos all the time and with no purpose beyond that. Increase the model size by 30% and charge double the price per model. Then call them "Witch Elves".

Would I buy it then? I can say the answer contains the words hell and no. I'd be surprised if anyone did.

TBM wrote:


There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

The only evidence I've seen anywhere is in the giant versions of this image where a pair of eyes can be seen behind the helmet. You can see it in that image but it's not exactly obvious unless you look at one of those massive banner poster versions of it they sent to GW stores and LGSs

 Grimtuff wrote:

TBM wrote:


There's no visual indication on any of the stormcast range that there's anything in that armour but a spirit. If they're really individuals, where's the individuality? Space Marines have purity seals, bionic eyes, bionic limbs, crux terminatus, imperial laurels, and other kinds of markings and awards on their armour to communicate that these are individuals with histories. There's none of that here, despite each "Eternal" being of widely disparate races and cultures. You brought up Witch Elves, but here is why thats a false equivalent:

The only evidence I've seen anywhere is in the giant versions of this image where a pair of eyes can be seen behind the helmet. You can see it in that image but it's not exactly obvious unless you look at one of those massive banner poster versions of it they sent to GW stores and LGSs

It's the visuals of the model that matters though. The premise had promise: Heroes of different races cultures and genders being turned into immortals and coming together.

None of this comes through in the model. Judging from the model's visuals, these are all 8 ft emotionless suits of armour with chests 4 ft wide who all have the proportions of steroidal human males. Nay, Space Marines.

And then they charge £30 for five basic eternals, when the fluff is just like Space Marines, the game AoS is inferior to 40k and is less stable and it's slightly more expensie than terminators. A child who likes the look of hulking superhero models will go for the cheaper one for the game most are already playing (40k), which lets face it, has more iconic design. This isn't for WHFB vets, it's for children, but everytime a child buys them he or she is turning down a video game. For only £6 more, I could buy two of these:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Daemons-Bloodletters-of-Khorne and outnumber the Stormcasts 4 to 1 in AoS and already have the basis of a 40k army.