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AdeptSister wrote: For Winter Soldier, the major theme was about finding a balance between security and personal freedom. While Captain America remained true, Fury was originally fine with violating America‘s ideals for security. SHIELD tore itself apart. While Hydra pushed an agenda, good people allowed it to come to fruition. Its a constant part in the Age of Ultron as well: How far should we go for security? For peace? Heck, this will come to a head in Civil War.
LOL. Of course, questions about security, trust in our government, etc. are general topics that have been done countless times before in film and TV, and MUCH more effectively and thoughtfully in a superhero film by The Dark Knight.
So fine...there's a grown-up theme in there. But where was the nuance? Where was the thoughtfulness? Remember the ferry scene in TDK, and the message that perhaps it's US and not our institutions or heroes who get to define and decide our security by not allowing ourselves to act out of fear? Where was the equivalent of THAT in Winter Soldier?
Just keeping it real, it was a fun action film, but after "learning" that a government that snoops around too much can be "bad", it's pretty much a straight-line, 4-color comic book. Not a 'nuanced' film.
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, Gorgon, I have no qualms at all saying I wouldn't coach my boy to watch people die, knowing that he could save them as easy as taking out the trash.
THAT would mess up someone's life.
Sure. Of course, Jonathan never really said that or acted that way, if you avoid watching the film through a red haze of hate.
AdeptSister wrote: For Winter Soldier, the major theme was about finding a balance between security and personal freedom. While Captain America remained true, Fury was originally fine with violating America‘s ideals for security. SHIELD tore itself apart. While Hydra pushed an agenda, good people allowed it to come to fruition. Its a constant part in the Age of Ultron as well: How far should we go for security? For peace? Heck, this will come to a head in Civil War.
LOL. Of course, questions about security, trust in our government, etc. are general topics that have been done countless times before in film and TV, and MUCH more effectively and thoughtfully in a superhero film by The Dark Knight.
So fine...there's a grown-up theme in there. But where was the nuance? Where was the thoughtfulness? Remember the ferry scene in TDK, and the message that perhaps it's US and not our institutions or heroes who get to define and decide our security by not allowing ourselves to act out of fear? Where was the equivalent of THAT in Winter Soldier?
Just keeping it real, it was a fun action film, but after "learning" that a government that snoops around too much can be "bad", it's pretty much a straight-line, 4-color comic book. Not a 'nuanced' film.
Humans are humans, though, and regardless of the setting, reacting like they do to the emergence of an unchecked being that can wipe them out makes perfect sense; people aren't going to just accept it just because it's a Superman universe rather than an X-men one. It would be unrealistic, really, for any other reaction.
And as for changing the tone, that's not really an issue so long as it's done well. Look at Batman; it's evolved from the bright, colourful Kid-friendly Adam West ones, via the varying 80/90s ones to the Dark Knight to this, which looks like it'll be even darker.
AdeptSister wrote: And calling it "fanboyish" to wish for the core part of the character to be the same as the source is pretty insulting. This was not about "having an interesting take on the character" in was about shoehorning him into the Nolanverse.
Well, in the comics he killed Zod and other criminals, so you're disrespecting the source material to want it otherwise.
Relax your grip on YOUR idea of the character a little, and you'll see that it's all fine. Really.
Paradigm wrote: In a world where no one has seen superheroes or anything like them yet, Clark would be met with as much hostility as Xavier/Magneto get in First Class when mutantkind is first revealed.
Actually, Xavier was met with less hostility once he proved that there really were mutants and that his knowledge of US military secrets wasn't because he was a spy.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
I‘m not arguing that that Humanity reaction was bad. I was arguing the specific teachings and actions of the Kents were a large change from the source material.
You are right that tone can change. Batman '66 is just as valid as Nolan Batman. I just I was wishing for a hopeful Superman.
AdeptSister wrote: Zod actually says that the activation of the Kryptonian ship lead them to Earth.
I still don't think that means you can 'blame' Superman for the actions of Zod and his henchmen.
To clarify, Zod would most likely never arrived at Earth if Superman did not activate the ship. His action accidentally draws Zod. Of course it is Zod's fault for their actions, but Superman accidentally led them to Earth.
Why the writer decided to make that choice, I have little idea.
AdeptSister wrote: And calling it "fanboyish" to wish for the core part of the character to be the same as the source is pretty insulting. This was not about "having an interesting take on the character" in was about shoehorning him into the Nolanverse.
Well, in the comics he killed Zod and other criminals, so you're disrespecting the source material to want it otherwise.
Relax your grip on YOUR idea of the character a little, and you'll see that it's all fine. Really.
Remind we when I complained about him killing Zod?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 20:27:37
AdeptSister wrote: For Winter Soldier, the major theme was about finding a balance between security and personal freedom. While Captain America remained true, Fury was originally fine with violating America‘s ideals for security. SHIELD tore itself apart. While Hydra pushed an agenda, good people allowed it to come to fruition. Its a constant part in the Age of Ultron as well: How far should we go for security? For peace? Heck, this will come to a head in Civil War.
LOL. Of course, questions about security, trust in our government, etc. are general topics that have been done countless times before in film and TV, and MUCH more effectively and thoughtfully in a superhero film by The Dark Knight.
So fine...there's a grown-up theme in there. But where was the nuance? Where was the thoughtfulness? Remember the ferry scene in TDK, and the message that perhaps it's US and not our institutions or heroes who get to define and decide our security by not allowing ourselves to act out of fear? Where was the equivalent of THAT in Winter Soldier?
Just keeping it real, it was a fun action film, but after "learning" that a government that snoops around too much can be "bad", it's pretty much a straight-line, 4-color comic book. Not a 'nuanced' film.
You originally said MoS was nuanced. How so?
For starters -- in all the reactions we've talked about, from Jonathan and Martha to the government and the public. MoS is a superhero movie and not an extremely complex or deep film, but just by the filmmakers asking the question "what would it be like if this character and mythos existed in the real world," they're working at a slightly different level than with Superman '78 or any of the Marvel films. It would have been very easy to just roll with plain ol' Ma and Pa Kent, who encourage their son to do good deeds without a single care that an alien god's presence on our planet might be problematic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to extend an olive branch here...
FWIW, I had "source material" objections to Winter Soldier. I accept that it's the MCCU Cap and not comics Cap. I just wish the Black Widow material would have been given to Sharon Carter (played by a stronger actress). For me, that would have made for a more classic Cap film.
So I do get that it's disappointing when a film doesn't interface with the source material in all the ways you want. But ultimately it's still a Cap film, and I still enjoyed it for what it was.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 20:48:01
AdeptSister wrote: Also, during all the fights he never tried to draw the battle away from civilian areas. Millions died.
Looking back, I don't think it was actually the intent to have a huge inferred death toll, I think it was just bad scriptwriting. They wanted Big Epic Action Scenes, but didn't make any effort to give an in-universe reason why all this flashy cinematic destruction wasn't incurring a huge civilian death toll. Because bear in mind that at no point does anyone in-universe actually act like thousands have died.
1: Apocalyptic landscape where amidst the ravaged ruins of Metropolis (but with no deaths on-screen, so that's okay), we get a romantic moment and a corny joke.
2: Huge epic Bay-esque super-battle where buildings are getting torn apart, but almost nobody dies or is threatened with death on screen (apart from the woman Perry saves). Also note that this part of the city seems entirely unaware that another district of the city has been entirely flattened.
3: Oh no! Zod is about to kill three random civilians. This cannot be tolerated, and he must be stopped because never mind the thousands that logically would have died because of him up till now, these people MATTER!
4: Everything's cool now. Life in Metropolis has somehow returned to normal despite the city suffering about twenty 9/11's, and Superman seems to not be the least bit fussed about killing a man when he could be flirting with a cute female soldier.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 20:51:50
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Ahtman wrote: I stopped reading Miller that much after The Dark Knight Returns and Year One so I'm still pretty happy with those. I haven't heard anything really all that good about the rest and the further you get from those it seems the worse I hear.
If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend reading Daredevil: Born Again.That's simply a masterpiece.
I'd also recommend All-Star Batman And Robin, not because it's good, but because it's Miller rebooting the Batman & Robin origins, and it's a morbidly fascinating and utterly hilarious train wreck. Every issue, you will gawp in stunned wonder at just how stupid, juvenile and 'oh my god, he actually thought that was cool' it can get.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
I understand where you are coming from. Superman, Batman, and Spiderman were my favorite general characters. I was so hopeful for Man of Steel. But for the reasons mentioned, I was really disappointed. You are right, directors change the visons we might hold in our minds. And it still is a Superman movie. But I could not reconcile with the movie's vision of Superman. The world felt more appropriate for Batman.
But I am glad that we can have two different views. I hope that the new movie will be enjoyable.
I think his parents were both super nice folks with a great sense of morality and it was their teachings and influence that makes Superman who he is. Man of Steel really isn't any different than any other source material regarding that issue.
The only difference is that MoS also had a dad going "Nnot everyone is awesome, some people are jerks, and others will simply be scared because you will change the way we view everything and you should know that so that you can make the right decision for you in the future. I love you and I am proud, but I am also scared about your future."
Scrabb wrote: Yeah, Gorgon, I have no qualms at all saying I wouldn't coach my boy to watch people die, knowing that he could save them as easy as taking out the trash.
THAT would mess up someone's life.
Sure. Of course, Jonathan never really said that or acted that way, if you avoid watching the film through a red haze of hate.
I'm glad you liked Man of Steel. it wasn't my cup of tea.
Looks like batman is going to be good at meddling but only able to annoy/distract Superman using billions of dollars worth of tech. Which is about right honestly.
(although I'm still not wrapping my head around not liking tea. Have you ever tried Chai with milk and sugar? It's basically hot chocolate for adults)
d-usa wrote: I think his parents were both super nice folks with a great sense of morality and it was their teachings and influence that makes Superman who he is. Man of Steel really isn't any different than any other source material regarding that issue.
Indeed the biggest change was to the Kyroptonian parents - where they went lets have a wierd suoper awesome Solider-Scientist guy who ignores all the rules of the society and makes space dragons to ride on.............hmmm - I figure all the other Kryptonians all left on their massive space ships and left his widow to watch the planet blow up alone......
The stuuf on Earth was significantly better than the realyl dire Krytonian stuff but sub Marvel/Smallville fare.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Obviously, I think the entire fight with Bat and Supes is going to be tempered by Superman holding back and trying to convince Bruce that he's not a bad guy. There will be a ton of "I don't want to hurt/kill you!" moments. It's going to be the frustration of knowing he wants to be a good guy, but while this bat-gak crazy mofo in a bat suit just keeps attacking him. And he's not supposed to take him out, because Batmans "supposed" to be a good guy to, and killing him would make Superman the exact bad guy Batman is claiming he is.
But then third combatant shows up- the actual bad guy- and then they team up. Pretty formulaic.
I always thought the entire devastation in the battle in man of Steel was about Superman being the victim of Zod's anger and willingness to cause chaos, no matter how many good hits he got in against him, because Clark was so inexperienced. Clark just lashed out and got lucky.
Imagine us knowing we are invulnerable but repressing that for our entire lives out of fear of being found out, and then suddenly getting attacked by a bear. You'd probably spend all by the end of that confrontation acting like any other squishy human until the fact that you can't lose finally got beat into you and you get the guts to act like you are invulnerable.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/07/18 17:39:01
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2015/07/18 19:22:54
Subject: Re:Batman vs Superman - the proper trailer
I'm still wondering what Lex's purpose in this will be. I mean, what will his motivation be for being the villain? He's already "top o' the world" with LexCorp. Why be against Superman? Why even care about Superman? Something has to happen early in the film to make Lex into Superman's enemy. My first guess is that Superman will somehow stop one of Lex's plans (maybe Lex sabotages a competitor in some way and Superman saves the day, we do see a rocket blowing up in the trailer with Supes saving the command module), so that makes Lex see Superman as an obstacle. Another possibility is that LexCorp gets some of the recovered Kryptonian tech to research, and Lex may actually ask Superman for his help in understanding it. Of course, Superman, being raised on Earth, can't help because he doesn't understand the tech, but Lex might not believe that and may think Superman is "trying to keep humanity down," which will also make Lex want to get rid of Superman, since nobody should be superior to Lex Luthor.
I wonder if Lex knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman? That could also lead in to how he may set the two of them up to fight each other (since Bruce Wayne's company is also a competitor to LexCorp). I suspect Wonder Woman's role may be to break up the fight to show them the real enemy.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2015/07/18 19:38:01
Subject: Re:Batman vs Superman - the proper trailer
I don't know if it needs to be anything so petty for Lex to be a villain. I've got to admit that I'm not the most knowledgeable person about comics but I've always thought the best way to make Lex Luthor be a genuine real threat to Superman is one thing.
Make Lex Luthor right. from a certain point of view
Superman Returns was a kinda terrible film and Lex Luthor was pretty much a joke in it. Yet somehow, in someway, this bit of awesomeness creeped into the film.
In my 'ideal' film, Lex Luthor opposes Superman not because Lex is a criminal / villain etc. Lex opposes Superman because of a fundamentally opposing world view that can not have Superman in it.
Batman VS Superman can perhaps have a situation where Batman starts off by sharing this worldview with Lex but ultimately is swayed and convinced to Superman's side.
In terms of the Superman facist army scenes in what appears to be a desert: anybody else thinking it's a flash forward dream that Bruce will have, causing him to decide that Superman must be stopped?
Not going to lie, I also got a lot of Red Son vibes from it (which is a very good thing).
Yeah, I'm beginning to think that Red Son might be a major influence on BvS too. Note that Red Son also had Luthor enact a certain plan that was...imperfect? Then consider puzzling shots from the trailers like the soldier kneeling before Superman, and Superman kneeling before Luthor.
Also, Snyder revealed that Batman's mech suit is more for self-preservation than anything else. So why is he just trying to buy time if he wants to take Superman down?
Right now I think that while this film may give us a little of what the title and trailers suggest, the plot -- including that fight on the rooftop -- may not be quite what it seems.
Supes is also seemingly grimacing as he kneels to Luthor; I bet it's kryptonite driven.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
"And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels" 
