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Hi!

Since new marines came out I have encountered few times the SM Command Bikers Nightmare

It is
Chapter master+SM bike+Burning Blade+Storm Shield

Commpany Squad 5 Marines with apothecary all on bikes with Strom Shield, Power Axe, Grav Gun, Melta Bombs

With Iron Hand tactics it is unit with 3+ Inv, 4+ FNP lead by hero with same save + IWND. And since they are bikesr they are pretty fast.
They are leathal in CC, super hard to kill, often tank with hero, and have fire power greate fire power due to grav guns and relentless.

Do you have any reliable way to stop them? I know that it is posible to tarap them, but it is not that easy because of they mobility and large S5 AP2 attacks in CC.
So I think is there really easier way than just throw at them more units they can kill?

For csm, one of those new Daemon knights of khorne would probably work pretty well. I don't know what this unit costs, but it sounds pretty expensive. They would have to turbo boost in order to not get caught, which would at least neuter the shooting for a turn.

In melee all they get are the melta bombs, against which it gets an invulnerable save of varying quality. And even without that, they won't be guaranteed to kill it. The knight then gets D attacks and stomp rerolls to deal with the storm shields.

In that sense a blood slaughterer might work too if you can get it into combat. provided you give it a decent invuln save. Can't get through the stormshield quite as well but its really cheap and can be buffed to have a 2+ invuln. And the wounds that DO go through are instant death due to S10.

Basically walkers with high armour and a good invuln I guess. Or lots of ranged D.

Are they fearless? Maybe some leadership shenanigans would work?
Maybe tzeentch lord on jetbike with a murder sword and 2++ via cursed earth or whatever might work too.

zombies - once they are tied up they are going to be there forever.

First, I'm pretty sure they can't have axes, SS, and grav guns. They should only have 2 weapons to replace.

Second, if you shoot them from a side without the CM you shouls be able to whittle them down. It will take 6 wounds on average to get through saves and FNP, but everytime you do you kill like 50 points worth.

This is a situation where nothing but the S and the rate of fire of the weapon matter since they have 3++. S10 attacks would deny them FNP, but are probably more expensive than just pouring on more bolter fire.

Before a solution can be determined, we need to know what you play. Baring that, go get an Aquila strongpoint.

They can take a Grav Gun, Stormshield and Power Axe plus Meltabombs per veteran. Honestly I think Scars are better with the H&R.

Mavnas wrote:
First, I'm pretty sure they can't have axes, SS, and grav guns. They should only have 2 weapons to replace.

Not true. The Command Squad datasheet has the option for "any veteran may take a storm shield...x pts", meaning that they don't have to exchange a weapon to take one, so they can trade their pistol for a gravgun, chainsword for a power axe.

There is some debate as to whether the apothecary can be upgraded, but all of the veterans can take the loadout described in the OP.

Roknar wrote:
For csm, one of those new Daemon knights of khorne(...)

What are new Deamon Knights of Khorne? I never heard about such a unit.

Before a solution can be determined, we need to know what you play(...)

I play with Necrons, Tau or IG.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
First, I'm pretty sure they can't have axes, SS, and grav guns. They should only have 2 weapons to replace.

Not true. The Command Squad datasheet has the option for "any veteran may take a storm shield...x pts", meaning that they don't have to exchange a weapon to take one, so they can trade their pistol for a gravgun, chainsword for a power axe.

There is some debate as to whether the apothecary can be upgraded, but all of the veterans can take the loadout described in the OP.

Ah, fair enough. That's still pretty crazy expensive. Those guys become, what 65 points each? I mean 3++ is nice, but it does nothing to stop massive amounts of incoming fire from guns with bad AP or say some wyverns hitting them after they've bunched up because they assaulted something and rolled poorly on their consolidate. TWC with powerfist and SS would make those guys sad. For 15 points more per model you'd get twice the attacks, twice the wounds, and twice the S. (And S10 would then ignore the FNP.)

As IG, a 50 man fearless blob would slow them. They get what 15 attacks (27 on the charge?), killing 8 (10ish) guys a round? By the time they'd get through all the bodies, the rest of your army could kill the rest of his army. You could deploy that blob behind an aegis line for 4+ cover (2+ when they GtG). This way you don't lose many of them to shooting beforehand. Then when the enemy death squad is close you give them the order to stand back up have the priest run over to join the unit and charge in or let them charge you? The Aegis line is over 2' long. If you put that in the center of your deployment zone, he'll be hard pressed to bypass it and at some point he'll need to come close if he wants to assault your other stuff. The unit can even stretch further like this:

x- Aegis line
0- Conscript or other cheap guardsman
.- placeholder (forum seems to hate whitespace at the start of lines)

.......xxxxxxxxxxx
.......0000000000
0000000000000000000

The back guys aren't in cover, but it doesn't matter because he has to shoot the closest model.

Now they'll need a commissar to keep them from running away without making them fearless (which would mean they can't Go to Ground for the 2+). Turn 1 he won't be in charge range. Turn 2 if he's going full speed, you or he will charge the other, then turns 2-4 he will mulch through that unit. Hopefully by turn 5, you will have killed enough of his other stuff to not care about losing 1 unit per turn.

Lots of cheap shots to make them fail their saves and FNP.

Scouts with rapid fire bolters. Guard. MSU should help. they cant assault them all. if they multi assualt they lose some attacks and get tarpitted a little longer.

 ColonelFazackerley wrote:
Lots of cheap shots to make them fail their saves and FNP.

Scouts with rapid fire bolters.

Matherhammer expects more than thirteen scouts double tapping bolters needed to drop 1 biker with 4+ FNP so... Good luck with that.

(Might do slightly better with bolter drill or tactical doctrine though )
I would like to see a command squad surrounded by 50 scouts, and vanishing in a cloud of mass reactive shells!

I once had a very bad luck fighting Nurgle CSM who uses 3 spawns broods supported by 2 maulerfiends. Those S10 AP2 attacks followed by melta hits are utter bane to the biker CM, even it has eternal warrior, he is killed in two rounds of combat, and only strip off one arm of one of the daemon engines. Yes that is due to no small part of bad luck. But it is a way to deal with it. I would say even the combat goes the other way, i.e. the CM's TH and krak grenades killed the maulerfiend. They are still going to be tied down by those 30 T6 wounds till the end game .

Nadm wrote:

Roknar wrote:
For csm, one of those new Daemon knights of khorne(...)

What are new Deamon Knights of Khorne? I never heard about such a unit.

Before a solution can be determined, we need to know what you play(...)

I play with Necrons, Tau or IG.

They are upcoming forge world kits. The rules have already been leaked, though they're still experimental, meaning not final. They were leaked with the Khorne Kytan which is already on the site, so it won't be much longer before those are released. They're basically imperial knights that can be dedicated to a god.

Also the OP asked how to deal with the unit other than tar pitting them. Many people are proposing some form of tarpit.
Also it would take like 100+ bolter shots to generate enough wounds to down the bikers BEFORE the fnp. It's pretty reliable I guess but it doesn't seem like the most viable option to me most of the time.

IG on the other hand might be able to do it with with guard blobs. They could be both tarpit and offer the shooting if combined with orders. Assuming they still have that first rank fire, second rank fire thing. Still wouldn't be an overly large investment in points either.
With necron I wold reckon that tarpitting would be the best option. They are so ridiculously tough that it doesn't need much on your part to keep them locked up all game. It's what they do best. I can't think of any good way to kill them off the top of my head but I don't know much about necron either.

Tau would probably be best with your average tau gunline. You can shoot from so far away, with high strength hits and marker lights all but ensure they all hit. Maybe keep some kroot close by just in case they close the distance to lock them up in melee. Use a fire commander or whatever the little guy is called and maybe an etheral and you should be good. You could even put the kroot in front. It's not like that 5+ cover save is going to change anything for the bikers.

You could use barrage weapons to take out the apothecary before tackling the rest of the unit. It drops their 4+ to a 6+

Oh. Then maybe a sniper drone team would help with tau? or even ratlings with IG. Or make the kroot standing in front of your gunline into snipers. The apothecary isn't an IC is he?

If you play Necrons wouldn't the Wraith formation, the one that gives them RP, be able to take down that unit? The Wraiths will have a 3++\ 4+, more wounds, better strength and the ability to catch the unit with their speed.

Be happy he isn't using clan raukaan. With Lucky WLT and a biomancy Libby nearby...well lets just say that short of eldar d-spam there is little that can hurt him, let alone kill.

As for killing the common squad,
Guard: trio of punishers with HB sponsons. 87 s5 shots per turn is bound to force enough saves to kill them before they get in range.
Crons: massed destroyers should work
Tau: well...huh..I guess utilize novacharge for the 4d6 movement on tides

Aren't Wraiths as good or better than these guys? Unless he's giving them all powerfists, their damage output is pretty mediocre, and the Chapter Master isn't killing a Wraith a turn. Whip coil Wraiths even strike first. Hit them with six Wraiths, and at worst you'll tie up his 400 point unit with a 250 point one, at best actually be able to take them down.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Be happy he isn't using clan raukaan. With Lucky WLT and a biomancy Libby nearby...well lets just say that short of eldar d-spam there is little that can hurt him, let alone kill.

As for killing the common squad,
Guard: trio of punishers with HB sponsons. 87 s5 shots per turn is bound to force enough saves to kill them before they get in range.
Crons: massed destroyers should work
Tau: well...huh..I guess utilize novacharge for the 4d6 movement on tides

wouldn't a blob or two of guardsmen achieve the same for cheaper? (with orders) Maybe with some sniper sprinkled around to possibly kill the apothecary. Or at this point, since it's IoM mabye a vindicare with shield breaker rounds might be useful.

Roknar wrote:
Oh. Then maybe a sniper drone team would help with tau? or even ratlings with IG. Or make the kroot standing in front of your gunline into snipers. The apothecary isn't an IC is he?

Oh yeah, that would do it.

IG would have more trouble since you'd have to put on a lot of wounds to actually kill the apothecary. (Sniper drones potentially shoot twice and are BS5.) A Vindecare assassin would have a just under 50/50 shot of getting him (with the FNP).

Aren't Wraiths as good or better than these guys? Unless he's giving them all powerfists, their damage output is pretty mediocre, and the Chapter Master isn't killing a Wraith a turn. Whip coil Wraiths even strike first. Hit them with six Wraiths, and at worst you'll tie up his 400 point unit with a 250 point one, at best actually be able to take them down.

The wraiths work as a tar pit. They're not killing anything. Against them he can take the wounds on the CM. You have 1/2 (to hit) * 1/2 (to wound, non rending) * 1/6 (armor save) * 1/2 (FNP) + 1/2 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound rending) * 1/3 (armor save) * 1/2 (FNP) = 29 attacks to deal with one wound. You'll be lucky to deal wounds faster than IWND will bring them back. On the bright side, they are a cheaper tar pit.

Lasguns are even worse than trying to spam bolters. Because you're only wounding on 6s and have only BS3 you need a crazy number of shots.

I think ultimately, wanting to kill this thing is bad. You'll end up devoting too many points to the task. It's like a tar pit that you attack instead of avoiding.

Command squads are for building Death Stars. They never have to engage an incredibly slow unit like AM blob.

TFC spam. Subterranean shells. Heavy 4, blast, strike down to cause dangerous terrain tests....

If you spread them out 2" apart TFC won't do squat.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Command squads are for building Death Stars. They never have to engage an incredibly slow unit like AM blob.

People keep saying this and forgetting an AM blob can cover 4 square feet of table at max spread or make a double wide line across the whole of a deployment zone. Good luck getting at anything else.

They are still too slow versus bikes and not great for maelstrom.

Well in his defense, if you are covering the width of the board, it's not like they have much choice. It's either drive in circles until you shoot a path through them and be shot at in the mean time, or assault them. They have to stay at least 12 inch away from any guardsman if they don't want to me assaulted by them.

I run bikes. Things I don't like are

Flyrants. Lots of dakka and can pull down my elites with weight of fire. Without a fire raptor, I can't really respond.

Heldrakes. Famously effective against bikes. Only okay against the command squad but can kill one of those maelstrom rushers every single turn.

Marker lighted riptides. If you can screen these, they are able to pile on wounds pretty well. Even with grav wounding on a 2+ the 3++ is hard to get through.

In general, bikers are weak against aircraft and hordes that take up a lot of board space.

Flyrants are highly effective against bikes of all kinds, even the dreaded IH Command squad. I faced that style of list last night, and a "mere" 3 Flyrants simply fired it from all angles until saves were failed. After one turn of shooting (including two Psychic screams) I had the Bikestar down to a lone biker and the Chapter Master with gorgon chain with one wound left. The next turn I landed all three for optimal shots, killed the last biker and then the Chapter Master. The key to actually killing them is to 1. Use D weapons/Strength 10 or 2. to get around the tank character and take out the apothecary. After that, it only takes 24 wounds for a Master to fail 4 saves...

Mavnas wrote:


The wraiths work as a tar pit. They're not killing anything. Against them he can take the wounds on the CM. You have 1/2 (to hit) * 1/2 (to wound, non rending) * 1/6 (armor save) * 1/2 (FNP) + 1/2 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound rending) * 1/3 (armor save) * 1/2 (FNP) = 29 attacks to deal with one wound. You'll be lucky to deal wounds faster than IWND will bring them back. On the bright side, they are a cheaper tar pit.

True, if he takes the hits on the Chapter Master. The Bikers themselves really have no chance. How are they equipped though? If we're talking A3 S4 they have absolutely no chance to actually hurt the Wraiths, and if he's giving them powerfists they become hideously expensive. With bikes, storm shields and an apothecary the squad starts at 190 points for five models, so I can't really imagine it being sensible to add more than one or two power fists. The Chapter Master, with his five attacks at S7, will kill 1/4 of a Wraith a turn, assuming they have RP up. In short, neither of these units are going anywhere until the game is over.

As a Necron player I think I would probably attempt to kite the unit for a little while, try to snipe some of the veterans (anything with a tesla gun or particle beamer would be decent at this), and engage with Wraiths if need be. I certainly wouldn't be particularly worried about it.

Edited


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:
Flyrants are highly effective against bikes of all kinds, even the dreaded IH Command squad. I faced that style of list last night, and a "mere" 3 Flyrants simply fired it from all angles until saves were failed. After one turn of shooting (including two Psychic screams) I had the Bikestar down to a lone biker and the Chapter Master with gorgon chain with one wound left. The next turn I landed all three for optimal shots, killed the last biker and then the Chapter Master. The key to actually killing them is to 1. Use D weapons/Strength 10 or 2. to get around the tank character and take out the apothecary. After that, it only takes 24 wounds for a Master to fail 4 saves...

Not to knock your opponent but it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing.