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Okapi wrote:

Mavnas wrote:


The wraiths work as a tar pit. They're not killing anything. Against them he can take the wounds on the CM. You have 1/2 (to hit) * 1/2 (to wound, non rending) * 1/6 (armor save) * 1/2 (FNP) + 1/2 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound rending) * 1/3 (armor save) * 1/2 (FNP) = 29 attacks to deal with one wound. You'll be lucky to deal wounds faster than IWND will bring them back. On the bright side, they are a cheaper tar pit.

True, if he takes the hits on the Chapter Master. The Bikers themselves really have no chance. How are they equipped though? If we're talking A3 S4 they have absolutely no chance to actually hurt the Wraiths, and if he's giving them powerfists they become hideously expensive. With bikes, storm shields and an apothecary the squad starts at 190 points for five models, so I can't really imagine it being sensible to add more than one or two power fists. The Chapter Master, with his five attacks at S7, will kill 1/4 of a Wraith a turn, assuming they have RP up. In short, neither of these units are going anywhere until the game is over.

As a Necron player I think I would probably attempt to kite the unit for a little while, try to snipe some of the veterans (anything with a tesla gun or particle beamer would be decent at this), and engage with Wraiths if need be. I certainly wouldn't be particularly worried about it.

We're talking about the squad in the OP which is loaded down with gear. Every biker other than the apotechecary has 3++, and there's no reason not to take the hits on the CM, it's not like the wraiths have a character to challenge him out.

Either way, it's a tarpit meeting a tarpit. No one is killing anyone fast.

Can a Chapter Master still take the Shield Eternal and the Burning Blade? Is it not one relic per character now?

I think in the OP he just had a regular SS. So force weapons or S10 would make this guy sad.

TWC with SS and powerfists would murder this unit.

Mavnas wrote:
I think in the OP he just had a regular SS. So force weapons or S10 would make this guy sad.

TWC with SS and powerfists would murder this unit.

Oh, thought I saw that he was equipped with both.

Either way, to beat him, tarpit him with Necrons.

There is no reason not to take the dirt cheap stormshields for the squad... you can't always rely upon cover and you can only tank with a character for so long. Not taking the stormshields is a big mistake I see a lot of players make... in for a penny, in for a pound. They are one of the best units in the game. Also I think it is a big mistake to go Iron Hands over White Scars - Hit and Run is a really big deal.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Can a Chapter Master still take the Shield Eternal and the Burning Blade? Is it not one relic per character now?

Its still a massive rules debate i though though personally say no because if you trade 2 for 2 does that make it 1 for 1? which was one side of the argument.

There is no reason according to the rules why they can't take both .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There is no reason not to take the dirt cheap stormshields for the squad... you can't always rely upon cover and you can only tank with a character for so long. Not taking the stormshields is a big mistake I see a lot of players make... in for a penny, in for a pound. They are one of the best units in the game. Also I think it is a big mistake to go Iron Hands over White Scars - Hit and Run is a really big deal.

You lose a third of your attacks with the shields and increase the price per biker by 37.5%. You end up with a tankier squad that is easier to tar pit. They will do better vs enemy death stars, at the cost of being stuck longer vs. Blobs. If you go the WS route you can use H&R to avoid being tarpitted.

As a SoB that uses an allied CM, I have St. Celestine to guve the H&R with I7 for the test. IH become the best choice when Khan isn't the WL and I have Hit and Run already. I am looking into replacing them with a wolfstar though. I played a game against Necrons where I wished I had some S10 attacks and just more attacks in general.

See you are the typical player that doesn't understand . You can take the banner for 15 points which gets back the attack. They should all have meltabombs which is the new power fist and every veteran can take them.


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And let's be real S4 melee attacks aren't doing any heavy lifting. Plus I5 is just as good is I7 for H&R plus the Saint can't turbo boost which can be a real game changer.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
See you are the typical player that doesn't understand . You can take the banner for 15 points which gets back the attack. They should all have meltabombs which is the new power fist and every veteran can take them.


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And let's be real S4 melee attacks aren't doing any heavy lifting. Plus I5 is just as good is I7 for H&R plus the Saint can't turbo boost which can be a real game changer.

Or you can take the banner and have 4 attacks instead of 3? Celestine adds another 3 2+ wounds and I7 means she gets to remove a few MEQ enemies herself. I am assuming every model gets a power weapon if they're swinging it 5 times on the charge. To be fair, I think the more expensive the unit gets the closer I am to just running TWC instead.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Edited


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 jifel wrote:
Flyrants are highly effective against bikes of all kinds, even the dreaded IH Command squad. I faced that style of list last night, and a "mere" 3 Flyrants simply fired it from all angles until saves were failed. After one turn of shooting (including two Psychic screams) I had the Bikestar down to a lone biker and the Chapter Master with gorgon chain with one wound left. The next turn I landed all three for optimal shots, killed the last biker and then the Chapter Master. The key to actually killing them is to 1. Use D weapons/Strength 10 or 2. to get around the tank character and take out the apothecary. After that, it only takes 24 wounds for a Master to fail 4 saves...

Not to knock your opponent but it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing.

I must ask, how so? he couldn't place his Chapter Master anywhere where I couldn't simply go around it and shoot the rest of the squad. Stormshields don't help as he has a 3+ armor anyways. The command squad (even if packing Grav, as my opponent was) isn't much of a threat to Air targets. There are other ways to win the game of course, but 1 on 1 I'll take Flyrants any day.

White Scars are the better choice for chapter tactics even though the Chapter Master can't tank wounds as well. Sounds like there wasn't much LoS blocking terrain. I always use a Librarian to buff the squad - Shrouding gives Scars 2+ jink and of course Invisibility we all know what that does.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There is no reason according to the rules why they can't take both .

If you're referring to my post, I would assume they say "May take one of the following" like every other codex does now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
White Scars are the better choice for chapter tactics even though the Chapter Master can't tank wounds as well. Sounds like there wasn't much LoS blocking terrain. I always use a Librarian to buff the squad - Shrouding gives Scars 2+ jink and of course Invisibility we all know what that does.

I don't disagree that a Librarian would be useful, but I think if you're going to take one psyker, you need at least 2. Sadly that just didn't fit into his army with the detachments he had. On the other hand, if you're not going to be using Librarians, I honestly think the Gorgon Chain Chapter Master in a command squad (3+ FNP!) may still be the way to go. You are correct though, we were playing on a terrain-lite board.

What about putting Sammael in an Iron Hands Command Squad, then 3 Iron Hands Libbys in a Black Knight command squad?

One of the most effective counters I have seen to good invun and armour saves is sheer volume of bullets. Drown that unit in firepower. That unit as powerful as it is, only has a small number of bodies, so if that unit has to make 20 plus saves then chances are there will be some 1's and 2's rolled by them followed by some failed fnp's. They should be wittled down over a few turns with any luck.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What about putting Sammael in an Iron Hands Command Squad, then 3 Iron Hands Libbys in a Black Knight command squad?

Sounds strong.


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 krodarklorr wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There is no reason according to the rules why they can't take both .

If you're referring to my post, I would assume they say "May take one of the following" like every other codex does now.

I don't think that's the case for every codex.

 jifel wrote:
Flyrants are highly effective against bikes of all kinds, even the dreaded IH Command squad. I faced that style of list last night, and a "mere" 3 Flyrants simply fired it from all angles until saves were failed. After one turn of shooting (including two Psychic screams) I had the Bikestar down to a lone biker and the Chapter Master with gorgon chain with one wound left. The next turn I landed all three for optimal shots, killed the last biker and then the Chapter Master. The key to actually killing them is to 1. Use D weapons/Strength 10 or 2. to get around the tank character and take out the apothecary. After that, it only takes 24 wounds for a Master to fail 4 saves...

I wish I had this luck! I ran my 5 flyrants list (granted I didn't roll a single Psychic Shreak) list against a triple Command Squad IH army. All 3 Command squads had 4 Gravs and an Apothecary (no shields). 2 of the squads had dedicated HQs for tanking (1 CM and 1 Captain) and I shot all my flyrants into the Command without the HQ most of the time. I think I killed 5 command bikes all game. I even had 4 Warp Blast spells rolled up and I couldn't dent them with 4 FNP. Keep in mind that he had a Culexus in a rhino zooming around with the Command Squads. I killed a lot of the rest of his army. Apothecaries can LOS on a 2+ as they are independent characters (that have to remain in the squad, whatever that means, haha. But it's really hard to snipe someone that needs to fail a 2+ LOS, 3+ armor, 4+ FNP. Regardless, I was better off sniping off the grav guns over and over again.

He simply made is saves. I was making him take 7 saves per flyrant per turn and he was rolling the thunder all game. I think I did 2 wounds to his CM (1 of which he IWND), 2 wounds to his captain (1 of which he IWND, again), and about 5 command bikes (with gravs). I killed his troops, the assassin, and his 2 talons, but those Command squads were still alive all game, making it impossible to ground myself for objectives late game. I'm glad you had better luck! xD

One, apothecaries aren't independent characters outside of forgeworld or Blood angels, so he shouldn't have had a 2+ LOS.

Two, you don't have to roll for shriek, it's the primarius. Even if you are rolling on multiple tables, you can trade any telepathy result for shriek.

 Silverthorne wrote:
One, apothecaries aren't independent characters outside of forgeworld or Blood angels, so he shouldn't have had a 2+ LOS.

Two, you don't have to roll for shriek, it's the primarius. Even if you are rolling on multiple tables, you can trade any telepathy result for shriek.

To be fair, this is the Tyranid Power Psychic Scream, not Shriek, which isn't the primaris.

Also, this was only a single command squad fortunately so I was able to dedicate a lot of firepower into it once the rest of the list was dead.

Can't 100% confirm the independent status in the command squad, but I looked it up this weekend, and they are... I'll look when I get home ^.^ Even if I was mistaken, a 4+, 3+, 4++ is tough for AP- Devourers.

Two, Tyranid's primaris is Dominion, so... XD

But Flyrants struggle against IH Command Squads without help from powers or enemies rolling poorly. This is just my experience from a single game with this particular matchup. I'm sure I'll have a different outcome next time I play my buddy.

Edit: Just got a chance to look it up, Apothecary is only an "In (Ch)" meaning Infantry Character, not Independent Character. Still gotta get thru that 4+, 3+, 4++ :(

Against two equally skilled players it will prolly come down to dices.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There is no reason not to take the dirt cheap stormshields for the squad... you can't always rely upon cover and you can only tank with a character for so long. Not taking the stormshields is a big mistake I see a lot of players make... in for a penny, in for a pound. They are one of the best units in the game. Also I think it is a big mistake to go Iron Hands over White Scars - Hit and Run is a really big deal.

Hit And Run is overrated with this unit. 4+ FNP is MUCH better than being able to charge again when the Command Squad isn't actually good at melee anyway. PLUS you're fast enough that you shouldn't be tarpitted by anything you didn't want to be in melee with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There is no reason not to take the dirt cheap stormshields for the squad... you can't always rely upon cover and you can only tank with a character for so long. Not taking the stormshields is a big mistake I see a lot of players make... in for a penny, in for a pound. They are one of the best units in the game. Also I think it is a big mistake to go Iron Hands over White Scars - Hit and Run is a really big deal.

Hit And Run is overrated with this unit. 4+ FNP is MUCH better than being able to charge again when the Command Squad isn't actually good at melee anyway. PLUS you're fast enough that you shouldn't be tarpitted by anything you didn't want to be in melee with.

You might be able to outrun things, but you still can't go through them. Tar pits don't have to catch you, they just have ro be between you and your target.

The command squad could the hub of a deathstar with other Ubër Killy characters attached like SW characters mounted on Thunderwolves. Librarius Conclave on bikes attached to the squad can really take it over the top. Hit and Run plus Shrouded with skilled rider is ballz deep.

To be fair, skilled rider very rarely helps in that situation. Once you have shrouding, a jink is a 2+ cover anyways, regardless of skilled rider.

Skilled rider is backup to shrouded in case the psychic power is not successfully cast for any reason. I agree with your comment that two psykers is the way to go.

Marines have a lot of answers as do Eldar and bugs.

Bugs
I like flyrants and the skytyrant swarm with a melee flyrant. Majority armor save is a 6 so grav is not that great on them and the flyrant has PE and is no slouch in combat. you can still have 3 other flyrants causing hate and discontent as well.

Marines.
Tyhphon
Vindicators the formation is a massive 10 inch ignores cover blast
TFC three of them to snipe the Apth with barrage weapons at BS5. Add Tigirus and let them rend...
Dare I say your own command squad

Chaos
Helldrakes are probably the best

Demons
I would put the girls up against them, deamonettes also flesh hounds, Nurgle princes with no armor would be a beast for them to deal with or summon till the board is just drowning in bodies.

Eldar
Mass shots of whatever they want to shoot. They have str 6 and access to flying D templates. Not even taking into consideration alpha/beta strike with d-scythes and a dark eldar WWP.

Necrons
Necrons have tools to deal with them too. I don't know crons well enough.


Really in short. Shoot them with high strength any AP weapons or barrage to remove the apoth. You can also tackle them with your own death star(s). Once the apoth is dead they are just T5 armor 3++ troops. Every failed save is the loss of a 60ish point model. That gets tough.

Mavnas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
There is no reason not to take the dirt cheap stormshields for the squad... you can't always rely upon cover and you can only tank with a character for so long. Not taking the stormshields is a big mistake I see a lot of players make... in for a penny, in for a pound. They are one of the best units in the game. Also I think it is a big mistake to go Iron Hands over White Scars - Hit and Run is a really big deal.

Hit And Run is overrated with this unit. 4+ FNP is MUCH better than being able to charge again when the Command Squad isn't actually good at melee anyway. PLUS you're fast enough that you shouldn't be tarpitted by anything you didn't want to be in melee with.

You might be able to outrun things, but you still can't go through them. Tar pits don't have to catch you, they just have ro be between you and your target.

Which bikers don't have such a problem. Unless you're deploying just plain terribly, they should be able to reach their target just fine. Hit And Run won't help with that either.

How about if a bike squad wants to get around the Green Tide ?

Hit and Run always helps - it is one of the best things in the game.