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I am coming back into the game and plan to collect two armies. I have decided Nids will be one of those, but I can't decide between BA or CSM for the other. I love the CSM Raptors and prefer CC armies. Is CSM viable? I know they are weak, but can I put a list together that will allow me to be competitive in a non-tournament gaming group?

Thanks!

Glu

CSMs are likely getting a new codex pretty soon, but in non-tournament group you might be able to get it to work CSMs' current problem is we can't get into CC before we've been turned into pulp, unless we go for certain units. We're currently suffering from really bad internal balance.

 ChazSexington wrote:
CSMs are likely getting a new codex pretty soon, but in non-tournament group you might be able to get it to work CSMs' current problem is we can't get into CC before we've been turned into pulp, unless we go for certain units. We're currently suffering from really bad internal balance.

If by "pretty soon" you mean, "next year", for a new codex?!

Sad Panda who's been spot on with upcoming 40k releases throughout the first half of the year has said outright, 'no more Chaos', after the Khorne Daemonkin book hit... The more reliable rumor mongers are also saying Tau is up next in the Fall - with a rumored 4 boxset release, once all the initial AoS stuff is out of the way.

Hopefully we get some love for once in the early part of next year... At the very least, we should be getting 4-6 boxsets this time around, as our model range is the oldest and most generally lacking in any kind of options out of all the armies available 'off the shelf'.

How important are raptors to you? I mean, we can't have them as troops no matter what after all. I'm finding raptors to be quite ok. Although they cost similar to bikes which are the same only better as they are faster and have higher toughness.

Ofc bikes can't jump over and into terrain like high ruins so they have their uses. They're generally less exposed than bikes so the higher toughness isn't quite as needed. And they could still get MoN to have 5 toughness if you really wanted it.

All the marks are ok and you could even have them camping buildings with plasma guns. Though they are arguably best in CC. And if you happen to have a vehicle than can be close to them, then you can add legacies of ruin these days which would make them even better. They can be good vs hordes or tanks or even both to some degree if you give the champ a power/chainfist.

Our Apostles can't have jump packs unfortunately, so if you wanted rerolls you would have to add in a sorceror or pay for veterans of the long war and hope you go against space marines.

Warptalons are too expensive but if they ever make it into CC they will rip and tear quite successfully.

So yea, a Raptor based army could work. They'll need back up but that goes for most of our units anyway.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
CSMs are likely getting a new codex pretty soon, but in non-tournament group you might be able to get it to work CSMs' current problem is we can't get into CC before we've been turned into pulp, unless we go for certain units. We're currently suffering from really bad internal balance.

If by "pretty soon" you mean, "next year", for a new codex?!

Sad Panda who's been spot on with upcoming 40k releases throughout the first half of the year has said outright, 'no more Chaos', after the Khorne Daemonkin book hit... The more reliable rumor mongers are also saying Tau is up next in the Fall - with a rumored 4 boxset release, once all the initial AoS stuff is out of the way.

Hopefully we get some love for once in the early part of next year... At the very least, we should be getting 4-6 boxsets this time around, as our model range is the oldest and most generally lacking in any kind of options out of all the armies available 'off the shelf'.

I'm just going by who has the oldest codices (CSM, SoB)

Thanks for the feed back guys. Thanks a lot Roknar, I think you just convinced me to give a Raptor army a try! I will post my first try at a list in the next day. I hope you have time to check it out!

Thanks again!

Glu


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the feed back guys. Thanks a lot Roknar, I think you just convinced me to give a Raptor army a try! I will post my first try at a list in the next day. I hope you have time to check it out!

Thanks again!

Glu

Hey i am a CSM player and i would say they are really good CC units even if they maybe havent the best or most special special rules for their sqauds. To your idea: i really love raptors so im sure the army will look nice when its finished but if you want to make them strong in play i would be really carefully because they cost a lot of points and can die relatively fast.

The key of good CSM is a good variety of Units! if you want to hear my idea for a fast attack CSM army you can PM me if you want.

I should probably have mentioned that the legacies are from Imperial Armour 13 from forge world. They aren't in the csm codex.

It also has Storm eagles and Fire raptors that might suit a raptor based army to give it more of an airborne theme. Fire Raptors in particular are pretty good.

And glad I could help ^^. Just keep in mind that you will need something other than raptors if you want to dismantle deathstar units. At the end of the day they are only jumping space marines, so don't expect them to go hunting terminator units lol.

I agree with Roknar.
If you wanted to you could field 3 Units of 10 with a variety of special weapons to allow them to take on multiple roles. Power fists and Meltas for light armor, Flamers and Plasmas for MEQs with power swords. But at the end of the day they are just Marines who move 12 inches. You could run them unbound with Heldrake support and a Jump Chaos Lord in one unit to make it fearless.

Mark of Nurgle on them all will make them T5 and give them that extra chance to survive. Keep them in cover till you get a chance to charge and they will tarpit most units. MCs, Heavy Armor, LoWs (Knights of any kind) will give you issues. I have often thought of doing an all jump list for unbound days, but at the end, they would just all die off to Imperial Knights.

However, you could easily build a themed army with proper support and planning, as well as a possibly infiltrate list using Huron that might hit real hard, using the proper Heavy Support units and Maybe a seperate Deathstar to draw fire. Would take alot of play testing, but would be super fun.

Unbound would indeed be a good way to go about the troop limitations.
We don't really have a good way of fighting knights at all though. An allied D thirster maybe but that's about it. The best would be a knight of our own once we get them, at which point the imperial knight will have other things to worry about than a few measly raptors lol.

If your going to put some in cover with plasma you might get away with only 5, maybe one or two more for ablative wounds. Regardless though, don't forget they all come with krak grenades, so they always have at least str 6 in melee against MCs.

A jumping lord/sorc could take the burning brand for extra shooty love. That's pretty much a 24" bubble of flamer death. A lord with murdersword is going to be the bane of almost any character out there, you could use that to maneuver your opponents lord or whatever your targeting into a a better spot for you.

Depending on how much of your army will deepstrike, you might even get some use out of the dimensional key. I don't like putting things in reserve as they never arrive when I need them to, but it could work.

A Black legion sorcerer with the memory of yuranthos could be nice, as you don't need line of sight to kill things with the nova. Hide on a roof where nobody can get to you or see you and blast away XD

Quite a few things you could do. Should prove to be an interesting army lol

Roknar wrote:

Warptalons are too expensive but if they ever make it into CC they will rip and tear quite successfully.

An absolute lie. Warp Talons are mathematically one of the most pathetic options in this game.

It's a unit full of dual lightning claws, with up to 4 attacks each on the charge depending on the mark. How exactly is that a pathetic option? I said they were too expensive, but that doesn't magically make them suck in CC.

They have the same amount of attacks as assault terminators, and with the marks they still cost (marginally) less than them, yet gain the advantage of the mark. The offensive potential is there, they're just not as tough. They are much faster however.

If you want a themed list focusing on jump packs/raptors, your not exactly spoiled for choice. Terminators with claws cost about the same but will need a transport and don't necessarily fit that theme, whereas these can just leg it.

I wasn't saying they were a must have, but they do remain an option in this kind of list. Especially if you can give them rerolls for hitting.
They can even get a 3+ invulnerable if you pair them with sorc and give them the mark of tzeentch.

Gluboy wrote:
I am coming back into the game and plan to collect two armies. I have decided Nids will be one of those, but I can't decide between BA or CSM for the other. I love the CSM Raptors and prefer CC armies. Is CSM viable? I know they are weak, but can I put a list together that will allow me to be competitive in a non-tournament gaming group?

Thanks!

Glu

Honestly, I would play such an army using the Khorne Daemonkin codex, as you can take the Khorne's Bloodstorm formation, which gives you access to 2-4 units of Raptors + 1-4 units of Warptalons + 0-1 Helldrake.
Build your army using the Blood Host Detachment set-up, and you can actually take multiple Bloodstorm formations!

The Slaughtercult 'tax' isn't even that harsh, as you can get away with a Jump pack Lord + 2x Bloodletter units + 1 unit of 5 Possessed. Then add as many Raptors/Warptalons as you like!
There's also some outstanding support formations, such as the Gorepack (Bikers + Flesh Hounds) and/or War Engines such as Forge/Maulerfiends, Soul Grinders/Defiler, etc...

As for the Raptors themselves... Outside of a unit that would be acting as an escort for a Jump pack IC, keep them min sized. CSM's overall are in a horrific place right now, partly due to being the oldest current codex, and partly because we simply lack effective options across the bulk of our unit choices.
Some solid set-ups include;
1. 5 men inclu 2x Flamer + Combi-flamer & Melta bomb Champ - Deep Strike them as a super cheap anti-horde alpha strike. Though with proper placement, 2-3 templates can threaten even MEQ units. The Melta bombs on the champ allow the unit to even threaten high armour vehicles as well.
A nice cheap unit that can readily earn back pts, and yet won't cost you much when they likely get smoked in return.

2. 5 men inlcu 2x Meltagun - Either Deep Strike them, or else hug LoS blocking terrain to get them into range of some nasty vehicle. Bikes preform this role much better, but Raptors have the ever powerful Alpha Strike capabilities.

3. 5 men inclu 2x Plasma gun + Combi-Plasma Champion. (notice a theme here?!) These guys work in a similar manner as 3-4 man 'Plasmacide' Terminator units... Drop them on top of an expensive MEQ/TEQ unit or Monstrous Creature, and open up with a good amount of S7/ap2 goodness!

4. 10-12 men inlcu Power fist + Lightning claw Champion. This would be the unit meant to escort an IC like a killy Chaos Lord or Biomancy Sorcerer. Forget the special weapons as this unit is geared specifically on getting into assaults with numbers as cheaply as possible.
Instead, add the kit to your Champ who can help chump challenge in the IC's place, giving free reign for your killy IC to run amok. Lightning claw + Power fist is optimal, as both are still 'Specialist Weapons', thus allowing for the +1A, and you've either Shred for T5 and lower, or else S8 for high toughness and/or doubling out T4.

Thanks so much everyone. Here is the theme of the army. I am writing a story/book that the army is based on. The book centers around 3 brothers, one is a captain, one a librarian and one is a jet pack hero that leads a Raptor squad. Hense the Raptor focus. I am far from a good writer, so I highly doubt anyone but me will ever read it, but, I am a US citizen that took a 2 year assignment to work in China, and I have a lot of free time on my hands. All of the comments you guys have given me have convinced me to drop the Nids all together and focus on the CSM army. It seems I could fit between 10-15 Raptors and still make a viable army. I see I will have issues fitting three heros into an army, so I am not sure what to do with that yet. Maybe someone will end up a Champion in a squad, I would be sad to see them die every game, but I get a feeling I would likely be losing most of my games anyway.

A couple people have offerend to show me a proposed army list. I would love to take you up on that. I have not played a game in a few years, and honestly wouldn't know where to start without all the responses you guys have given. Thank you so much again.

Glu

Gluboy wrote:
I see I will have issues fitting three heros into an army

Just take two CADs. One with two HQs and one with one HQ. Done.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Honestly, I would play such an army using the Khorne Daemonkin codex, as you can take the Khorne's Bloodstorm formation, which gives you access to 2-4 units of Raptors + 1-4 units of Warptalons + 0-1 Helldrake.
Build your army using the Blood Host Detachment set-up, and you can actually take multiple Bloodstorm formations!

The Slaughtercult 'tax' isn't even that harsh, as you can get away with a Jump pack Lord + 2x Bloodletter units + 1 unit of 5 Possessed. Then add as many Raptors/Warptalons as you like!
There's also some outstanding support formations, such as the Gorepack (Bikers + Flesh Hounds) and/or War Engines such as Forge/Maulerfiends, Soul Grinders/Defiler, etc...

As for the Raptors themselves... Outside of a unit that would be acting as an escort for a Jump pack IC, keep them min sized. CSM's overall are in a horrific place right now, partly due to being the oldest current codex, and partly because we simply lack effective options across the bulk of our unit choices.

This. I've run the aforementioned Khorne's Bloodstorm formation, and I can tell you it is FUN to play. Indeed, the same can probably be said of the whole Daemonkin codex, and it's certainly a stronger book than regular Chaos Space Marines. I've never run a jump lord before, so I can't attest to their effectiveness, but I can tell you that deep striking raptors with meltas can be the last thing an enemy vehicle ever sees!

Thanks for the Deamonkin codex info. I will pick it up today and see what I can come up with.

Thanks!

Glu

If you wants Nids to be your second army and Blood Angels is an option, maybe you want to look at Shield of Baal: Deathstorm Set?

Gluboy wrote:
Thanks so much everyone. Here is the theme of the army. I am writing a story/book that the army is based on. The book centers around 3 brothers, one is a captain, one a librarian and one is a jet pack hero that leads a Raptor squad. Hense the Raptor focus. I am far from a good writer, so I highly doubt anyone but me will ever read it, but, I am a US citizen that took a 2 year assignment to work in China, and I have a lot of free time on my hands. All of the comments you guys have given me have convinced me to drop the Nids all together and focus on the CSM army. It seems I could fit between 10-15 Raptors and still make a viable army. I see I will have issues fitting three heros into an army, so I am not sure what to do with that yet. Maybe someone will end up a Champion in a squad, I would be sad to see them die every game, but I get a feeling I would likely be losing most of my games anyway.

A couple people have offerend to show me a proposed army list. I would love to take you up on that. I have not played a game in a few years, and honestly wouldn't know where to start without all the responses you guys have given. Thank you so much again.

Glu

Any preference on what their roles are supposed to be? I would be thinking that the hero will be more melee focused, while the librarian is more of a (ranged ?) support. And the captain would be for ranged shooting?
As for fitting in 3, either go unbound or your going to have to take 2 CAD's, which also means at least 4 troops choices. Though we still enjoy a large selection here as most of our elite section can be made troops. Taking 3 is also going to be expensive. the captain (if ranged) could be represented by a lord with burning brand and little else, but thats still roughly 100 points. The 3 HQ's will cost you upwards of 300 points. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just something to keep in mind.

I think I have a list figured out. I put the foot lord on a bike, I can work thT into my story easy enough.

Lord on bike with power fist and plasma pistol

Lord with jump pack with two lightning claws

Librarian with bolt pistol and force weapon

8 marines with rhino

8 marines with rhino

5 marines

5 marines

7 bikes

8 raptors

7 warptalons

2 full las predators

This is not the army list forum, but I wanted you guys to see it before I put it over there. I am sure it will get trashed in that forum, but you guys seem to understand the theme of the army very well.

Thanks for the comments, it has been very helpful.

One thing, HQ-builder says this army is illegal. Can some confirm?

Thanks,

Glu

Roknar wrote:
It's a unit full of dual lightning claws, with up to 4 attacks each on the charge depending on the mark. How exactly is that a pathetic option? I said they were too expensive, but that doesn't magically make them suck in CC.

They have the same amount of attacks as assault terminators, and with the marks they still cost (marginally) less than them, yet gain the advantage of the mark. The offensive potential is there, they're just not as tough. They are much faster however.

If you want a themed list focusing on jump packs/raptors, your not exactly spoiled for choice. Terminators with claws cost about the same but will need a transport and don't necessarily fit that theme, whereas these can just leg it.

I wasn't saying they were a must have, but they do remain an option in this kind of list. Especially if you can give them rerolls for hitting.
They can even get a 3+ invulnerable if you pair them with sorc and give them the mark of tzeentch.

It makes them suck because of comparable options for the same price points.

A minimum squad is 160. Remember, this is NO investments so far.Within the Fast Attack slot, we have:
x4 Bikers, 1 Champ, 2 Melta Guns, MoN for exactly the same price.
x6 Raptors, 1 Champ, 2 Melta Guns, MoS for 3 points more
x4 Spawn, MoN, for 144.

The first two options won't be slowed down by charging into terrain, and the latter doesn't care because of crap Initiative anyway. The first two have actual shooting power to soften the Warp Talons up, and the champs can take Melta Bombs too. For comparison, if the Raptors charge in this scenario, they unleash 7 Bolt rounds, or 5 Bolt Rounds and two Melta Rounds, and then charge at I5, not including HoW. That's one dead from shooting, and two dead from the attacks, once again not including HoW.

Yes, I agree.
But at the same time if you let the warp talons attack in that scenario, the raptors only kill 1 due to higher initiative, and the 4 remaining talons kill 5 in return.

So being assaulted its 3 to 2 for the raptors, and when assaulting its 5 to 1 for the talons. For 3 points less, than the raptors. And marks will only cost them 15 to 30 points more. so for 12 points more (MoS) the talons will wipe out the raptors completely, while only suffering 1 wound in return.
Against MEQ or worse, they are better than raptors. Also not including HoW.

Of course the raptors are only slightly worse but get the massive advantage of being able to seriously threaten tanks at the same time. And they're tougher from simply having more wounds and they don't HAVE to close in melee. Or swapping those for flamers, which enables them to threaten hordes, which the talons can't do.

Overall the other fast attack options are better as they are more flexible and that deepstrike gimmick counts for nothing. But if your going for a themed list like the OP is going for, then warp talons fit the bill. And despite being overcosted, and as such should still not be the first choice, they WILL cause damage IF you get them into melee.
More so if you ally in khorne daemon kin talons as those get furious charge. And a stronger HoW if taken in the formation. Although I would probably only do that in full blown daemonkin list, so they can get the blood tithe buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


That seems like a weird list tbh. Also csm librarians are called sorcerers. What lvl is the sorc? What's the plan with him?
I also don't imagine all those units are without any options right?
Theme is one thing, but you need some kind of plan when your making the army. If all those marines are indeed naked, you really want to reconsider that list.
How many points are you trying to play?

An interesting way to go with the Sorc is to give him Lv3 and dump all his rolls into Santic Daemonology... Yes, you will suffer Perils on any casting roll that has a double, but keep in mind just how the lore itself will synergise with any CSM force that goes for a solid number of Daemonic and/or invuln save units:

1. Gate of Infinity.
A really handy spell for using the likes of Termies or another unit toting a high number of special weapons. You can literally zip about the table at will and redeploy via the Deep Strike rules to hit whatever target you want. This can get especially nasty if you also have a Nova type power or Psy Shriek to combo it with!

2. Hammerhand.
CSM's are predominately a close range assault based army. +2S to the Sorc's entire unit is pretty savage! Imagine combo'ing this across a unit such as Possessed/Warptalons, Termies or even just a large squad of pistol/ccw Marines or Raptors!

3. Sanctuary.
Terminators and/or any Daemonic unit will love this spell, as will any unit marked Tzeentch.

4. Cleansing Flame.
This is one of the much riskier powers to use, as the likelihood of doubles, (and thus a Perils test), is pretty significant. HOWEVER! CF is easily the outright single best Nova power in the entire game! 2D6/S5 auto-hits to everything in range - including those massively annoying zooming Flyers & FMC's especially is amazaballs.
Ahriman is a complete boss with this power, due to his special rules allowing him to cast the same power multiple times... I've had him nuke 2 MoN Princes in a single phase using this power. Yes he Periled like a champ, but the trade-off was well worth it!

5. Vortex of Doom.
You will pretty much auto-Perils casting this one, but, it has the potential to utterly wreck face due to it being a Str.D attack. It's a real hail marry at best, but in a pinch it's one of the most ready sources for getting Str.D into a CSM list as the only other sources of such attacks are either LoW's or the Str.D Bloodthirster.

@Roknar

They are not naked, one of the 8 man has a las cannon, one has a flamer, both of the 5 man have a plasma gun.

The raptor squad has three plasma pistols.

I am open to changes honestly, this is my first try at a list in so long I find I am struggling just working within the Formations rules.

Sorcerer also has jet pack, I forgot to put that in the post.

Bike lord to go with the bikes.

Jump pack lord with the warptalons

Sorcerer with the raptors

The las cannon marine squad and predator for anti-tank

The two five man squads for grabbing objectives on my side and the 8 man flamer for objectives on the rest of the table.

In my head it all seemed good, but I really am open to suggestions. The only thing I am really dead set on is one raptor squand, but it sounds like one is legit without bringing the army down to much.

I will edit the list to show items in a couple hours, I was worried about posting an army list in the wrong forum, so I left the details out.

Thanks again,
Glu

Roknar wrote:
Yes, I agree.
But at the same time if you let the warp talons attack in that scenario, the raptors only kill 1 due to higher initiative, and the 4 remaining talons kill 5 in return.

So being assaulted its 3 to 2 for the raptors, and when assaulting its 5 to 1 for the talons. For 3 points less, than the raptors. And marks will only cost them 15 to 30 points more. so for 12 points more (MoS) the talons will wipe out the raptors completely, while only suffering 1 wound in return.
Against MEQ or worse, they are better than raptors. Also not including HoW.

Of course the raptors are only slightly worse but get the massive advantage of being able to seriously threaten tanks at the same time. And they're tougher from simply having more wounds and they don't HAVE to close in melee. Or swapping those for flamers, which enables them to threaten hordes, which the talons can't do.

Overall the other fast attack options are better as they are more flexible and that deepstrike gimmick counts for nothing. But if your going for a themed list like the OP is going for, then warp talons fit the bill. And despite being overcosted, and as such should still not be the first choice, they WILL cause damage IF you get them into melee.
More so if you ally in khorne daemon kin talons as those get furious charge. And a stronger HoW if taken in the formation. Although I would probably only do that in full blown daemonkin list, so they can get the blood tithe buffs.

The Warp Talons are losing the combat. You're missing the point, I'll reiterate the scenario:
x5 Warp Talons with NOTHING is is 160
x6 Raptors, Champ, 2 Melta Guns, Mos is 163. Not completely even, but close enough that it doesn't affect Mathhammer ridiculously.

The main reason the Warp Talons don't have a mark is because that's even MORE investment. For comparison, 5 Warp Talons with the MoS is 15 more points. That's a Power Weapon or Lightning Claw in the Raptor squad. This makes the math even worse off. So let's do that. We'll make them the same I5, and the Raptors get a Power Claw (so not to waste that I5 of couse. We can Mathhammer a Maul, Sword, Lance, or Axe later though).

So we'll have the Raptors do the charging and shooting first. Since they have a shooting attack, and grenades, we'll use them. 4 Bolt Pistol Shots, 1 Frag, and 2 Melta Guns gives us a little over one dead Warp Talon. Assuming they charge with HoW, striking at the same time with or without cover, that's about 2.5 dead. We have about four dead Warp Talons so far. For the defending Warp Talons, they only get about four dead Raptors. This might seem shockingly even. Including HoW, though, we get one dead Warp Talon. SOOOO we wiped out the squad. Great.

Now let's go ahead and let the Warp Talons get the charge, which might actually give them the win at combat. They have to suffer Overwatch first. So that leads to about 1/3 of a Talon dead. Assuming there's no cover, GREAT! We actually kill six of them!
HOWEVER, if there's cover, and there will be on a decent table, the Raptors strike first. They kill about two Warp Talons in total, so overall we lost half the squad of Warp Talons. They THEN strike and we get about over 3 Raptors. That's significantly less, and shows how important grenades are. Which Talons don't have.

Keep in mind that's all with a single Power Claw on the Champ. The Lance and Axe would be better on the charge

You might not think that's significant, but Warp Talons are paying for a 5++ they'll probably never use, and mathematically, against several different targets, they only do better at charging MEQ. Unless your opponent is braindead, that doesn't happen. More bodies wins this, and flexibility wins this. So for the purpose of this army, they're still terrible. Telling the OP otherwise is misinformation. They're nice looking models, but that's it.

Don't ever take warp talons unless you are forced to (KDK formation) and even there I would just field the raptors on their own.

If you plan on having a sorcerer then you cannot use ONLY the Khorne Daemonkin books, since there are no sorcerers there, however you can ally a vanilla CSM sorcerer and that would at the same time allow you to field the 3 HQs you want to.

The program might be telling you that it is illegal due to the 3 HQ's, you probably need to set it unto 2 CADs for it to work.

Usually the walking lords/sorcerers aren't really good, so It'd be better for him to be on a bike and the captain on a Juggernaut, in both CSM and KDK juggerlords and probably the best HQ's you can get so you's have something along the lines of:

KDK CAD
Jugger Lord
Jump Pack Lord

Troops
8 marines/zerks
8 marines/zerks

Fast
8x Raptors meltas (jump lord)
8x Raptors meltas
8x Raptors meltas

Goresomething Formation
Chaos Bikers meltas/plasmas (sorcerer)
Chaos Bikers meltas/plasmas
Khorne hounds (juggy)

Allied CSM
Bike Sorcerer

Troops
10x cultists

Your right. I'm not getting your point. Raptors are better than Warp Talons. Yes, I never claimed otherwise.

I'm only saying they can get the job done. And as you've shown as well, they do. I also compared them without MoS. That was just something that can make them better in general. For a mere 12 points over the raptors in this case.

The 5++ is mostly just for show, but the 6++ on sisters has been infuriating for my opponent at times. And they can't be buffed to a 2++ unlike the talons. Which is still not enough to make them better as a whole for all the reasons you pointed out.

If your plan is to make a themed list around jump packs, csm offer a grand choice of 2 units that could make up the core. In this case that would probably mostly be raptors, but I for one would get bored with all raptors. I would throw in some talons just to spice things up a bit. They may be worse than Raptors, but that doesn't make them terrible.

There are a lot of MEQ out there, and as you've also said, these are superior at killing them. They may serve a very narrow role, but they are pretty good at it. They're still too expensive even in that role but not so much so that you'll auto loose if you add them.

I wasn't saying he should pick like 5 units of warp talons. But one unit of warp talons next to several raptors could work. Especially with all the msu spam these days. You're bound to find a unit or two in open ground, while the raptors can go after the rest. Or take out the backfield units, that don't have much to offer in terms of resistance, in this case the invulnerable might even come in handy.

They could cost 800 points, but they would still be good at killing MEQ provided you don't charge through cover.
They would be nowhere near 800 points good, just like the talons certainly aren't worth 160 points for 5. Yet they aren't so ludicrously overpriced as to not be an option.

If you wan't a Thousand Sons themed army than your going to have to buy thousand sons. If you want a raptor based army then Warp talons are almost a must have simply due to the theme. If you want to be super competitive, sure, don't take them. If you just want a themed army that still has a shot at winning, then feel free to take a unit.

Some people even like them and are successful with them. I've even seen it happen.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Gluboy what is the points limit your aiming for? 1850?

Roknar wrote:
Your right. I'm not getting your point. Raptors are better than Warp Talons. Yes, I never claimed otherwise.

I'm only saying they can get the job done. And as you've shown as well, they do. I also compared them without MoS. That was just something that can make them better in general. For a mere 12 points over the raptors in this case.

Any unit can get eh job done if you invest enough points on it that doesn't mean the are good or even ok units. Warptalons are probably the worst unit in the CSM codex fighting with mutilators for the title and sure you can play then for fluff but that won't change that there are other options that can get their job done for less points. Killing MEQ isn't really an issue for most armies.

They just have too many drawbacks for the AP3 shred attacks, they cost too much for a 3+, non-fearless, grenadeless unit. The only way I could see them working is if Tzeentch daemonkin ever comes and they get Daemon of Tzeentch + Mark of Tzeentch for the same price just like possessed and talons did on Khorne daemonkin.

That would make them ok, they would still be expensive but 3+/4++ with re-rolls on 1's for both normal and invul saves, now that is a good playable unit.

They are indeed the worst unit next to mutilators. Which is why I would never take more than unit of talons in even the best case scenario.
You do still get dual lightning claws, a 5+ invulnerable, fear and a jump pack. Well, and a pointless rule when deepstriking. Not having fearless isn't much of a point seeing as how only the cult units get fearless unless your counting walkers.
They are still better at killing MEQs than the equivalent cost in raptors, despite being much harder to use and less forgiving.

I know they are too expensive for that you get, I said that several times. Hell, a single lord on jump pack WITH sigil of corruption and burning brand is cheaper and better at killing MEQ than warp talons.
But still, the talons aren't as punishingly expensive as people make them out to be. Not outside of a tournament environment. And especially not for a themed list as this is.

Or was anyway, if he is fine with having just two raptor units than he doesn't really need the talons. I was thinking more along the lines of an airborne theme.
He wanted to put the jump pack lord into a unit of talons. That actually makes for a pretty nasty unit. It's to fragile to run up the middle of the board, but maybe deepstriking it in the back or outflanking it depending on the terrain would put quite the pressure on the back field.

The same can be done with other units, but they fit the theme and are pretty cool looking. And one such unit can totally work imho. I believe it's up to the OP whether or not he wants to include them and their not so bad as to not at least give them a try. Especially in a vanilla dex list.
With dreadclaws and what have you, they become pretty obsolete unless you really really want them.

Roknar wrote:

They are still better at killing MEQs than the equivalent cost in raptors, despite being much harder to use and less forgiving.

Only outside of cover. Otherwise, too many Talons are going to die to really make an impact after Overwatch and being hit first. I showed as much having them fight Raptors.