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The Hammerhead seems like an easy fix. But what about the rest?

I can't even figure out what role the rail rifle is supposed to have.

Nocturus wrote:
I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.

Maybe it's a case where what makes sense has to bow to balance? But they've neutered the vehicle damage table so much that I'm not sure how else to model the HH rail gun. Maybe STR 10 armor bane AP 0; it gets+3 the result roll? But then the WK is just going to laugh off your huge weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The Hammerhead seems like an easy fix. But what about the rest?

I can't even figure out what role the rail rifle is supposed to have.

Me, neither. Maybe just give it armor bane and call it. It would still be vastly inferior to S7 spam though because 7th ed says any and all mid STR spam is godly. Marines crumble before you, transports, most MCs. It's just so good.

I can't believe people are still so sore over the riptide.
Come on guys, it's been more than 2 years now, and they already nerfed them. Do you really find them to be so problematic?

The only change I believe they should get is to limit their JSJ ability a little bit. This would make fighting them with other shooty armies less frustrating.

Railrifles need to get a little better, or have better supporting weapons (or more railrifles) on broadside suits to make them more competitive against missilesides.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The Hammerhead seems like an easy fix. But what about the rest?

I can't even figure out what role the rail rifle is supposed to have.

The Rail Rifle carried by Pathfinders is an AMAZING long range MEQ eraser. Problem is, it comes on pathfinders which are better used for markerlights, AND it makes pathfinders something like 21 or 26 points a piece. It's a great concept, but not delievered into the game well. If they would allow some kind of pathfinder "support" squad to be taken as a troop choice, but not allow it to have markerlights, it would be an intresting concept to try out squads of pathfinders with rail rifles sniping MEQs. Maybe one of the formations we get in the new book will make that fully or possible of being done.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I can't believe people are still so sore over the riptide.
Come on guys, it's been more than 2 years now, and they already nerfed them. Do you really find them to be so problematic?

The only change I believe they should get is to limit their JSJ ability a little bit. This would make fighting them with other shooty armies less frustrating.

Railrifles need to get a little better, or have better supporting weapons (or more railrifles) on broadside suits to make them more competitive against missilesides.

Yeah, I do. They are too immortal for their price and their weapon completely makes elite infantry not in transport practically unplayable. 2+ armor MCs shouldn't exist. I stand by this. It's too much and has contributed to the awful arms race in 40K. Like with BA, I'm so glad I bothered to give my guys FNP with this HQ choice over here. They are all vaporized anyway by a gun I can't get off the table! Glad I spent those points.

They are too immortal for their price and their weapon completely makes elite infantry not in transport practically unplayable.

Their durability is high, but their damage output is no different from a leman russ once you take the markerlights out.

If their JSJ was limited and people could actually get their guns on target more of the time then they would be more manageable.

As it is though almost all armies can deal with them in some way or another.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

They are too immortal for their price and their weapon completely makes elite infantry not in transport practically unplayable.

Their durability is high, but their damage output is no different from a leman russ once you take the markerlights out.

If their JSJ was limited and people could actually get their guns on target more of the time then they would be more manageable.

As it is though almost all armies can deal with them in some way or another.

But in practice, their output is MUCH higher than a Leman Russ. A melta drop cripples a Russ. Riptide laughs it off. A single lascannon hit that causes "shaken" on the Russ turns off the big gun. Or it can destroy the big gun. Single lascannon hit means nothing to the Riptide. Basically, the Riptide can't be suppressed and the Russ can. That's on top of JSJ shenanigans. The Russ is so SLOW. And the Russ has no access to ignore cover. Some jinking FNP bikers heading towards a Russ squad is bad, bad, news. Riptide don't care. Riptide might even win the CC because T6 2+ armor is amazing.

Imperial heavy weapons are miserable at engaging the Riptide. Which means we have to use high ROF special weapons. Which means falling all over ourselves trying to get with 12" or 18" of this thing. It's just a total nightmare. Still.

Well with the 6 armies I play they have never been more than a decent piece after the 7th edition nerfs to them.

Durability is a bit high, but their damage really is nothing when compared to other heavy shooters like gravstars for example.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Well with the 6 armies I play they have never been more than a decent piece after the 7th edition nerfs to them.

Durability is a bit high, but their damage really is nothing when compared to other heavy shooters like gravstars for example.

Their biggest failing against vs MCs. And yes, gravstars are even more devastating and seem to always bee invisible.

If stealth suits got invisibility or hard to hit constantly they would be broken.

No what Tau need are squadrons like SM (hammerheads & skyrays) and to balance out the riptide by either 1) making it a LoW and gargant or 2) reducing its Armor save to 3+ or its toughness to 5.

There is no reason Tau units nees the best of every world involving shooting with the capabilities they have in avoiding their so called only weakness, being melee

Many, many times in this game, my riptides have splatted a Daemon Prince with 1 hit while smashing. This IS a game of luck lest we forgot. The more guns you fire, the less of a chance you have at getting into melee, the less fun it is for any melee oriented army or any jack of all trades army. Lest we forget what Eldar are like and have release Tau 6ed all over again and Tau players never getting games ever again

Remove split fire, simply weapons systems, remove fnp on riptides as an option, remove covering fire in favor is full balistics overwatch.

What I like about the Hammer Head is that it's actually kind of cheap in points, in theory, but because it only has one weapon it's kind of weak. Also, it's almost the cost of two Broadsides, which isn't good either since it can't really compete with them.

Like I said, my fix would be to just swap out the two drones with two Broadside Heavy Rail Rifles, giving it the power of a Predator, where it has a super strong main weapon and then two very strong secondary weapons. It would also essentially triple the power of the Hammer Head and make it in line with taking two Broadsides as both have about the same points.

Not only that but a bigger more badass suit is coming to stomp your asses. The RIptide squadrons will be on the flanks.

All will be well in the universe as people bitch about or codex.

 Tinkrr wrote:
What I like about the Hammer Head is that it's actually kind of cheap in points, in theory, but because it only has one weapon it's kind of weak. Also, it's almost the cost of two Broadsides, which isn't good either since it can't really compete with them.

Like I said, my fix would be to just swap out the two drones with two Broadside Heavy Rail Rifles, giving it the power of a Predator, where it has a super strong main weapon and then two very strong secondary weapons. It would also essentially triple the power of the Hammer Head and make it in line with taking two Broadsides as both have about the same points.

I still don't have a problem with SMS on the Hammer Head, just give us back our target locks on them so we can fire it at a different target.

Martel732 wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.

Maybe it's a case where what makes sense has to bow to balance? But they've neutered the vehicle damage table so much that I'm not sure how else to model the HH rail gun. Maybe STR 10 armor bane AP 0; it gets+3 the result roll? But then the WK is just going to laugh off your huge weapons.

Said it before elsewhere, saying it again here:

Armourbane shouldn't just be an additional D6 for Armor Penetration. It should also be causing D6(or D3) Wounds on MCs/GMCs.

It's a major issue I've noticed in Skitarii for their Transauranic Arquebus, but it applies elsewhere as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I would be fine with HH rail guns being strength D if the point cost went up. I don't like the easy access of ranged D weapons in any of the lists, and since I'd like to see vechilces come in squads for Tau, I don't want 9 strength D shots to become the new norm and something else for people to whine about when they see Tau on the table.

Maybe it's a case where what makes sense has to bow to balance? But they've neutered the vehicle damage table so much that I'm not sure how else to model the HH rail gun. Maybe STR 10 armor bane AP 0; it gets+3 the result roll? But then the WK is just going to laugh off your huge weapons.

Said it before elsewhere, saying it again here:

Armourbane shouldn't just be an additional D6 for Armor Penetration. It should also be causing D6(or D3) Wounds on MCs/GMCs.

It's a major issue I've noticed in Skitarii for their Transauranic Arquebus, but it applies elsewhere as well.

That would help, I agree.

 redleger wrote:
I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.

Nope I'd hate this, broadsides have a hell of a lot of nasty shooting, moving and snap firing balances them out, if they had a 3+ 5++ and slow and purposeful I wouldn't mind, the heavy armour could just be the 5++

 Formosa wrote:

 redleger wrote:
I would just like to have the Broadsides be able to move and not snap fire. They are currenly only infantry so every time I need to move them all my missles are snap firing. Bring back the stabilizers from last edition as an upgrade even. or based on size, make them MCs so they are relentless.

Nope I'd hate this, broadsides have a hell of a lot of nasty shooting, moving and snap firing balances them out, if they had a 3+ 5++ and slow and purposeful I wouldn't mind, the heavy armour could just be the 5++

With HYMP, yes. with HRR? practically unplayable.

The problem is they made the model for the Broadside as something definitely different in mind then the rules completely got changed and don't reflect the model. You have a model that costs as much as a dread to purchase, is the size of a dread, is mounted on a dread sized base and somehow is still T4.

I think they should have gone with a completely revamped statline and go from there. I'd prefer them be walkers with nasty weapons and a decent invul save. Or at least that is what I always imagined the "generator" on the back was for.

I'd go with 11/11/10 5++ 60pts with railgun, 80 with hymp and a Walker, that would solve the move and shoot issue as it would be a Walker, it would also do away with yet another useless rule add on allowing it to fire all weapons as it's a Walker.

Or

3+ t5 2 wounds 5++ slow and purposeful.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem is they made the model for the Broadside as something definitely different in mind then the rules completely got changed and don't reflect the model. You have a model that costs as much as a dread to purchase, is the size of a dread, is mounted on a dread sized base and somehow is still T4.

I think they should have gone with a completely revamped statline and go from there. I'd prefer them be walkers with nasty weapons and a decent invul save. Or at least that is what I always imagined the "generator" on the back was for.

Think you mean termie base, and iirc don't they cost nearly as much as a cent (10pt less if cents have grav cannons, and broadsides have a 5pt system. Is move + shoot any weapon worth 10 points a model? feth yes.)

move and shoot for a 10pt increase is not unreasonable imo, especially if they have HRR (which desperately need a buff, maybe make them salvo 2/1 or something if they don't get relentless/SnP)

 Wolfblade wrote:

Think you mean termie base

Nope. The Broadside is huge compared to a termi. The old one was on a terminator base.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Think you mean termie base

Nope. The Broadside is huge compared to a termi. The old one was on a terminator base.

Ah, haven't got a new one then.

In that case, yeah, a walker type stats might be better suited for it, or atleast T5/relentless.

The broadside needs a total remake, with a T5 3W 2+ statline, if only to not make it a walker (as walkers are, by nature of front AV combat, too good in CC for tau)

It needs to be a mini MC for that model.
The HYMP needs to be less efficient, this is easily obtained if the model's new statline comes with a higher pricetag while the HYMP remains the same, as it removes the spamming.
The HHR needs to be better, FAR better. assuming the new body is a 80 point body, the HRR can easily be back to be a S10AP1 gun. (the railgun on the hammerhead will naturally be more)

 BoomWolf wrote:
The broadside needs a total remake, with a T5 3W 2+ statline, if only to not make it a walker (as walkers are, by nature of front AV combat, too good in CC for tau)

It needs to be a mini MC for that model.
The HYMP needs to be less efficient, this is easily obtained if the model's new statline comes with a higher pricetag while the HYMP remains the same, as it removes the spamming.
The HHR needs to be better, FAR better. assuming the new body is a 80 point body, the HRR can easily be back to be a S10AP1 gun. (the railgun on the hammerhead will naturally be more)

No... just no.

Broadsides don't need T5 AND 3 wounds. They already have an abundance of wounds in the form of drones. I could see them becoming T5, but they don't need another wound to go with it.

The problem with HYMP is not (only) it's cost, but the fact that you don't need any other weapon because missile pods do just about everything everything from dealing with infantry blods, killing MC to cracking vehicles.
Bumping it's price up will not make people use other weapons because they don't need other weapons. In order for HYMP (and regular pods for that) not to be an auto-take on everything save a few melta-suits, you need to make an opportunity where HYMP are not the go-to weapon and create a demand for other weapons.

In order to do that, I suggest dropping their strength by 1. Being Str6, they will retain their use as anti-infantry weapon, wounding most infantry on 2's, effectively changing nothing. However, against most MC's, they would wound on 4's instead of 3's. Making them good at dealing damage to them, but not almost killing them in a single turn because of the sheer number of wounds inflicted. Really the only things being able to sustain a volley from a broadside team with drones without being on the brink of death is a NDK, a Tyrannofex or a Riptide.
The biggest and most important change would be to vehicles. Str6 is good for taking out light armoured vehicles, but it doesn't guarantee the "point & click" that a massive amount of Str7 would. Rail rifles and friends would have to be taken in order to get rid of AV 13 and up.

Bumping the price up WOULD mean its not useful against infantry blobs though, due to the fact you cant shoot as many shots per point any more.
Pulse weapons would need to be increased to get rip of hordes.

Why do tau need to have S6 on their heavy battlesuits, when basic infantry pack S5? the missile pods will not be relegated as anti-infantry, they would be completely dropped. the only reason pods are good to begin with, is that they are at least decent against nearly anything-if they stop being so (and S6 means they did as AV12 is barely scratched, AV13 is untouchable and MCs with T7 or Sv2 are also beyond reasonable wounding rates, even T5 would get a large bump in survival rates, and T5 isn't special at all.)

The fact the price per model goes up, would mean, by default, that the "point and click removal" of light vehicles and the damage to MCs would also be decrease, because you simply would not afford as many guns on the field.

The only problem with the pods is how easy it is to spam them, not the power of the individual pod. once you make the base suit more expensive, the number of guns available at a point value drop. the guns will be harder to take down, but they won't kill stuff as quickly.


As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.
And every bit of durability you sink into it, means a higher pricetag is acceptable-making the drop in firepower per point even bigger, and further solving the S7 spam issue by making it simply not spammable.

Its simple design really, I don't understand why you fail to see it.

I want the Tau codex to be able to take Necrons as battle brothers.
Since the Necrons created the Tau to be bodies for their minds.
Or so my headcannon says.

Bring the two shootiest armies together at last for a devastating amount of butthurt.

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.

It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.

It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.

But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively. Plus, do we really want more 2+ in the game, when we have the option to do something different with them? We can't rightfully do that with Oblits.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.

It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.

But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.

Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
As for why T5 3W, because you seriously can't justify a broadside model to have only the durability of a centurion/nurgle oblit. its far bigger and sturdier than both, and should be reflected in the model.

It is reflected in its 2+ armour save.

But Oblits already has that and 2 W, plus 5++, so they are actually even stronger than a Broadside defensively.

Well, the Obliterators are wearing a small (and better) Broadside armor, so this sounds alright.

But they're about the size of a Terminator, who has T 4 and one Wound. The problem isn't with Oblits, the problem is that Broadsides doesn't fit with with their current rules - Oblits were only mentioned because they have the same stats, but are clearly in different leagues.