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col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Canoptek Harvest in MSU could work, the occasional Warrior squad too should help out, if not then maybe try out the Doombringer Flight formation, it's not the best usually but if Knights have a hard time with anything I'd imagine it'd be Flyers, Flyers with a Strength 10 AP 1 Lance at that.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

That said, has someone done the numbers for that? That's a good 18 Scarabs per Knight if you compare similar point values. That's 90 on the charge before the Knight actually strikes, but I'm lazy for the math on that one.

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

Even without shred, a scarab farm list absolutely curb-stomps an all knight list. It is so one-sided a match-up the Knight player might as well concede on turn one.

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

Even without shred, a scarab farm list absolutely curb-stomps an all knight list. It is so one-sided a match-up the Knight player might as well concede on turn one.

Or the Knight player can just shoot at the scarabs and instant death most of them

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

Even without shred, a scarab farm list absolutely curb-stomps an all knight list. It is so one-sided a match-up the Knight player might as well concede on turn one.

Or the Knight player can just shoot at the scarabs and instant death most of them

You don't understand the match-up. Scarabs are easy to hide out of line of sight or in cover. Plus a scarab farm list is producing 180 points of free scarabs a turn.

Plus, the damage output of a scarab with regards to Knights surpasses the equivalent point value invested in voidblade Praetorians. Do the math.

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

Even without shred, a scarab farm list absolutely curb-stomps an all knight list. It is so one-sided a match-up the Knight player might as well concede on turn one.

Lets assume that 10 scarabs make the charge. Knight hits first, killing 2 bases. 40 attacks from the scarabs take 3.3HP (call it 4) from Knight. Knight stomps averaging 2 stomps over 6 bases, killing 5. After 1 round of combat, Knight has 2HP left and 3 scarabs are alive. The second round, 2 bases die to combat. That last scarab barely has a chance at 1HP. The knight typically wins this fight easily. But the Knight does cost almost twice as much.

Factor in shooting and the odds of scarabs winning goes down even farther. Then add in the rest of the army's shooting and it is even less.

However, said and done, the threat of scarabs, especially if in a Harvest and the Spider can survive, can definitely make a Knight player think twice before getting aggressive.

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
'Crons Against Knights:
Top tier = Heavy Destroyers, Void Blade Praetorians, Doom Scythes, Warscythes (particularly on Cult D.Lords)
Mid tier = Wraiths, Cult Destroyers, C'tan shards, Heat Ray/HGC Stalker, Doomsday Ark
Lower tier = Gauss (Warriors/Immortals/Ghost Arks/Tomb Blades), Scarabs, Nightscythes, Annihilation Barge
Gak tier = everything else

I think you are under-estimating scarabs. 200 points of scarabs (so 10 bases) can have 50 attacks on the charge all with entropic strike (strips 4 HP on average). If they are Harvest scarabs and you had the foresight to give them shred then that's 7 HP stripped on average and one very dead 370 point knight.

So yeah, a scarab farm list will murderize an all knight list.

I'll bump them up to mid tier, but that's as high as I'm willing to go.

Just as a little input, Shred doesn't work on Hull Points, only Wound rolls.

Back down to lower tier they go!

Even without shred, a scarab farm list absolutely curb-stomps an all knight list. It is so one-sided a match-up the Knight player might as well concede on turn one.

Lets assume that 10 scarabs make the charge. Knight hits first, killing 2 bases. 40 attacks from the scarabs take 3.3HP (call it 4) from Knight. Knight stomps averaging 2 stomps over 6 bases, killing 5. After 1 round of combat, Knight has 2HP left and 3 scarabs are alive. The second round, 2 bases die to combat. That last scarab barely has a chance at 1HP. The knight typically wins this fight easily. But the Knight does cost almost twice as much.

Factor in shooting and the odds of scarabs winning goes down even farther. Then add in the rest of the army's shooting and it is even less.

However, said and done, the threat of scarabs, especially if in a Harvest and the Spider can survive, can definitely make a Knight player think twice before getting aggressive.

How many scarab bases is a scarab farm list making for free each turn?

How many bases are dying to Thermal cannons, Battle cannons, and heavy stubbers per turn? Battle cannon knights can easily wipe scarab units.

Battles are never won or lost in a vacuum.

col_impact wrote:
You don't understand the match-up. Scarabs are easy to hide out of line of sight or in cover. Plus a scarab farm list is producing 180 points of free scarabs a turn.

Plus, the damage output of a scarab with regards to Knights surpasses the equivalent point value invested in voidblade Praetorians. Do the math.

Oh right, I forgot that every 40k table has so many BLoS terrain pieces big enough to hide a 14+ scarab unit (since it takes about 14+ scarabs to kill a knight on the charge) that it is impossible for my five over a 1/2' tall model to move 12" to look around the terrain and see part of any of your scarab units.

My bad

/end sarcasm

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't understand the match-up. Scarabs are easy to hide out of line of sight or in cover. Plus a scarab farm list is producing 180 points of free scarabs a turn.

Plus, the damage output of a scarab with regards to Knights surpasses the equivalent point value invested in voidblade Praetorians. Do the math.

Oh right, I forgot that every 40k table has so many BLoS terrain pieces big enough to hide a 14+ scarab unit (since it takes about 14+ scarabs to kill a knight on the charge) that it is impossible for my five over a 1/2' tall model to move 12" to look around the terrain and see part of any of your scarab units.

My bad

/end sarcasm

Like I said, you don't understand the match-up. How are you shooting when you are getting tarpitted by wraiths?

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't understand the match-up. Scarabs are easy to hide out of line of sight or in cover. Plus a scarab farm list is producing 180 points of free scarabs a turn.

Plus, the damage output of a scarab with regards to Knights surpasses the equivalent point value invested in voidblade Praetorians. Do the math.

Oh right, I forgot that every 40k table has so many BLoS terrain pieces big enough to hide a 14+ scarab unit (since it takes about 14+ scarabs to kill a knight on the charge) that it is impossible for my five over a 1/2' tall model to move 12" to look around the terrain and see part of any of your scarab units.

My bad

/end sarcasm

Like I said, you don't understand the match-up. How are you shooting when you are getting tarpitted by wraiths?

You aren't charging me with wraiths turn 1 so i get a turn of shooting. And if i went first i get two turns of shooting before you can charge me.

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't understand the match-up. Scarabs are easy to hide out of line of sight or in cover. Plus a scarab farm list is producing 180 points of free scarabs a turn.

Plus, the damage output of a scarab with regards to Knights surpasses the equivalent point value invested in voidblade Praetorians. Do the math.

Oh right, I forgot that every 40k table has so many BLoS terrain pieces big enough to hide a 14+ scarab unit (since it takes about 14+ scarabs to kill a knight on the charge) that it is impossible for my five over a 1/2' tall model to move 12" to look around the terrain and see part of any of your scarab units.

My bad

/end sarcasm

Like I said, you don't understand the match-up. How are you shooting when you are getting tarpitted by wraiths?

You aren't charging me with wraiths turn 1 so i get a turn of shooting. And if i went first i get two turns of shooting before you can charge me.

Have you ever actually played a scarab-farm list? You aren't wounding any scarab bases that are hidden out of line of sight at deployment since the Knight's battle cannon is not barrage.

There is not going to be enough terrain to hide 30+ 40mm bases 100%

 CrownAxe wrote:
There is not going to be enough terrain to hide 30+ 40mm bases 100%

And so you kill a few bases of scarabs. Meanwhile my scarab farm produces 200 points of free knight killing scarabs each turn and the rest of my army which you are ignoring gausses you and tarpits you. Curb stomp.

Oh boy you made all these scarabs in your deployment zone. You still have to take a turn to move up before you can charge me with them

 CrownAxe wrote:
Oh boy you made all these scarabs in your deployment zone. You still have to take a turn to move up before you can charge me with them

Not that I am saying Scarabs are a good idea vs Knights, but they can get a turn 1 charge. Scarabs start a deployment line, Spyder 1 moves up and makes a scarab at the front of the Scarab unit, Spyder 2 moves up and makes a Scarab in front of that. The Scarabs are now 7" past the DZ, then they move 12". Scarabs are now 5" from the opponents DZ. If a knight is within 2" of that DZ line, they are getting charged.

Will they kill the Knight? Probably not, but with RP, enough might survive to pin that Knight down for the Wraiths to finish the job.

Depends on how many Destroyer and Stomps get through to be honest. Each stomp is S6 AP4 (so ID) so any failed 5+ RP results in a dead scarab.

Of course, but if 1 scarab lives, it was worth it. But that is why I said is wasn't the best idea, just a tactic to use since you have to buy the scarabs anyway

Do the math. Each unit is on the charge.

200 points of scarabs = 10 bases x 5 attacks = 50 attacks = 25 hits = 4.167 HP stripped.

200 points of voidblade praetorians = 7 bases x 4 attacks = 28 attacks = 14 hits = 2.33 HP stripped.

200 points of wraiths = 5 bases x 4 attacks = 20 attacks = 10 hits = 1.67 HP stripped.

Tactically you tarpit with the wraiths then finish off with the scarabs. Hammer and anvil.


Also keep in mind that in a scarab farm list you are making 200 points of scarabs for free each turn.

The problem is those 10 base become 7-8 before they get to attack, they only 2-3 base for the next combat.

Tactically, you tarpit with the scarabs since they can get there faster (read my earlier post) then the Wraiths charge and finish off the Knight.

 Vector Strike wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Shoot them. Failing that, charge them with whip coil wraiths or a smashing spyder.

Spyder is terrible against Knights. Not only it'll hit later, one smash attack isn't enough to deal much damage on it. And the stomp will take it away.

Wraiths are more interesting, at I5.

Wraiths have a motherflipping hard time hurting knights. AV13 is not easy for something that absolutely has to rend to even glance. Most likely getting deaded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
The problem is those 10 base become 7-8 before they get to attack, they only 2-3 base for the next combat.

Tactically, you tarpit with the scarabs since they can get there faster (read my earlier post) then the Wraiths charge and finish off the Knight.

Except each stomp deletes two bases if the tarpit. That's just the stomps. You need the wraiths to lock them first and hopefully use their attacks against the invuls. Wraiths less attacks by far and have to still hit 6's which means the variance is way higher and so using them to seal the deal is way harder and WAY more unreliable.

Scarab farm seems to show its worth again and again. And let us not forget there's at least two units of immortals, an HQ, and ten spiders minimum.
Scarabs are scary, and they can tarpit anything for days.

To add another idea, what would wraiths with transdimentional beamer do?